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Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Making up your own definitions? :confused:

Laws can't be interpretted based on your definitions. 'Torture' isn't like 'cold or 'tall'.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
...
my entire point is that we each draw the lines of humanity in interrogation differently, and I believe that the line I draw is a humane one.

Why? I do not believe that discomfort and fear = torture. Therefore waterboarding, stress positions, light/noise variances, and other methods of causing fear are all humane methods of interrogation AFAIC. None of those cross the line as I see it drawn.

Other people, such as yourself, simply draw that line much lower. Some, and I'm not saying you, believe that we shouldnt even be able to yell at the bastards because it might upset them.

So, like I said, different people will draw a different line; and those who restrict interrogators too much may not realize the impact of such collection impotence. They might not realize that tying the hands of HUMINT folks too much will lead directly to the loss of American lives; perhaps even their own!
I think your first line is one of the first things we've agreed upon on P&N...ever!

I guess the bottom line is that I don't see my views on interrogation as overly restrictive. As I've said before, I think there is PLENTY of leeway under the line I'd draw were I in charge. I agree that you can obviously take it too far, they ARE prisoners suspected of terrorism activities after all, not honored guests, but I think the line I draw is a good balance between intelligence gathering capabilities and humane treatment. Of course you view your position the same way, which leads us to this point :)

However, I would also point out that I don't think the judgement people make on the appropriate balance is due to ignorance of the dangers involved on both sides. I really think a lot of people are willing to risk loss of human intelligence, and maybe even American lives, if it means they can be proud of the actions our country takes and if they can look at themselves in the mirror when they shave. Others would rather do some rather unpleasant things they aren't too happy about if it means saving lives. Neither is fundamentally wrong, although I suppose I lean more one way than the other, but it explains why it's hard to resolve this topic...a lot of people are simply arguing for different things. But as I said, I don't think this is a case where we have to make a choice, I think it's very possible to both obey our moral and ethical values AND gather useful intelligence.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: palehorse74
...
my entire point is that we each draw the lines of humanity in interrogation differently, and I believe that the line I draw is a humane one.

Why? I do not believe that discomfort and fear = torture. Therefore waterboarding, stress positions, light/noise variances, and other methods of causing fear are all humane methods of interrogation AFAIC. None of those cross the line as I see it drawn.

Other people, such as yourself, simply draw that line much lower. Some, and I'm not saying you, believe that we shouldnt even be able to yell at the bastards because it might upset them.

So, like I said, different people will draw a different line; and those who restrict interrogators too much may not realize the impact of such collection impotence. They might not realize that tying the hands of HUMINT folks too much will lead directly to the loss of American lives; perhaps even their own!
I think your first line is one of the first things we've agreed upon on P&N...ever!

I guess the bottom line is that I don't see my views on interrogation as overly restrictive. As I've said before, I think there is PLENTY of leeway under the line I'd draw were I in charge. I agree that you can obviously take it too far, they ARE prisoners suspected of terrorism activities after all, not honored guests, but I think the line I draw is a good balance between intelligence gathering capabilities and humane treatment. Of course you view your position the same way, which leads us to this point :)

However, I would also point out that I don't think the judgement people make on the appropriate balance is due to ignorance of the dangers involved on both sides. I really think a lot of people are willing to risk loss of human intelligence, and maybe even American lives, if it means they can be proud of the actions our country takes and if they can look at themselves in the mirror when they shave. Others would rather do some rather unpleasant things they aren't too happy about if it means saving lives. Neither is fundamentally wrong, although I suppose I lean more one way than the other, but it explains why it's hard to resolve this topic...a lot of people are simply arguing for different things. But as I said, I don't think this is a case where we have to make a choice, I think it's very possible to both obey our moral and ethical values AND gather useful intelligence.
well spoken. I believe this is what they call an "impasse." ;)

one question: When military recruits at Basic/boot camp are told to stand still for an hour holding their rifle in front of them with knees bent and arms extended, what you have there is an extreme stress position. yes, it sucks, and mannn, it burns like hell (just like working out with weights), but do you honestly see that as "torture"?! If so, then we've been torturing our military recruits for decades, and i dont see anyone crying about that? (except, perhaps, the really bad recruits! lol)

So putting water-boarding aside for a moment, what the heck is everyone's problem with stress positions?!
 

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