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Well at least they are saving Israel the trouble

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
"The Palestinian people these days are living a second Naqba," Mohammed Salah, an Egyptian political analyst, wrote in the independent daily al-Masry al-Youm. "They face the tyranny of the Israelis, conspiracy from the West, neglect from the Arabs, treason and deceit from the Palestinian Authority and the mindlessness of (Hamas) leaders."


And the ceasefire between Palestinian militant groups and Israeli forces that had largely held since November appeared to be at an end. Another two dozen Qassam rockets fell on Israel, and Israel resumed a campaign of targeted assassinations of Palestinian militants.

Granted the second part is related to an existing thread, but still, it goes to show. The Palestinians are screwed. Why? Because the militant groups too many of them glorify don't give a rats ass about the people, they only want the power. As such when one group legitimately won the other wouldn't have any of it.

Still, when they get along they need a bigger bogeyman to be on stage so their in fighting can go unchecked. After all, you need excuses for all the dead bodies, blaming Israel or goading them into doing something, does help your cause. After all, whats a few Israelie assasinations if they get your opponent instead of you?

Early yesterday, Hamas forces attacked the home of Fatah security chief Rashid Abu Shbak and killed six of his bodyguards, though he and his family were not home at the time

I would love to know their excuse for killing fellow Muslims. They can't claim their Americans, Jewish, or helping the infidel. What it all comes down to is that these people don't deserve their own government because they can't act responsible in the real world. They will forever relegate their own people to poverty because they can't be mature.

Israel is just a convienent excuse for the Arabs, NO THE WORLD, to hide behind instead of facing the total dysfuction that is Palenstine leadership.
 
Arab TV stations showed constant images from Gaza, which looked like a war zone, with masked gunmen in the abandoned streets and people rushing the wounded away on stretchers. Al-Jazeera broadcast live from its offices in Gaza, where journalists in flak jackets and helmets were trapped as gunfire raged outside.

Viewers in the Arab world ? long loyal advocates of the Palestinian cause ? were stunned. "May God curse you all," renowned Egyptian columnist Ahmed Ragab wrote, referring to the Palestinian factions.

That's the important part IMO. Especially the stunned Al-Jazeera viewers.
 
I agree that Fatah and Hamas are fighting each other to the possible delight of Israel. But I sure don't see the fight will be long term good news for Israel or for the mid-east. I am guessing that Hamas will prevail in the end and then Hamas will turn on Israel with a vengeance. As the more moderate Fatah is driven out of existence.

But short term the Palestinians are going to catch hell from all sides as their lives will become totally miserable. Putting much pressure on various Arab states to intervene. Its small incidents like this that can provide the spark that ignites the mid-east powder keg.
 
Fatah is very corrupt. Why the United States wants to align itself with a corrupt for short-term gains is beyond me. Oh wait...we do that everywhere else so it's business as usual.
 
Originally posted by: Narmer
Fatah is very corrupt. Why the United States wants to align itself with a corrupt for short-term gains is beyond me. Oh wait...we do that everywhere else so it's business as usual.

And Hamas are terrorists; lesser of 2 evils.
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Narmer
Fatah is very corrupt. Why the United States wants to align itself with a corrupt for short-term gains is beyond me. Oh wait...we do that everywhere else so it's business as usual.

And Hamas are terrorists; lesser of 2 evils.

Wrong. Tell me, what is a terrorist organization? Hasn't Fatah been called the same? Which group is more reliable and which is more corrupt? Remember it was our association with corrupt and brutal regimes that caused 9/11.
 
I'm starting to lose faith that the Palestinians will ever get their crap together, there is no real sense of unity, they have even less a sense of self than the Iraqi's do.

They have no economy, no real government and are essentially a highly fragmented welfare state, relying on handouts from Israel and the US. This system is so entrenched now, even if the Palestinians where granted everything they wanted, sans Israel just disappearing, they still wouldn't be able to pull their stuff together.
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Narmer
Fatah is very corrupt. Why the United States wants to align itself with a corrupt for short-term gains is beyond me. Oh wait...we do that everywhere else so it's business as usual.

And Hamas are terrorists; lesser of 2 evils.

Exactly. Hence the saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Though it might be prudent to add to the end of that saying the phrase "for now."
 
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Narmer
Fatah is very corrupt. Why the United States wants to align itself with a corrupt for short-term gains is beyond me. Oh wait...we do that everywhere else so it's business as usual.

And Hamas are terrorists; lesser of 2 evils.

Wrong. Tell me, what is a terrorist organization? Hasn't Fatah been called the same? Which group is more reliable and which is more corrupt? Remember it was our association with corrupt and brutal regimes that caused 9/11.


Aren't you the guy championing the cause for "Mickey the Jihad Rat"?
 
Originally posted by: Aisengard
and then Hamas will turn on Israel with a vengeance.

Bye-bye Hamas.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Last time Israel tried to take on Hamas's brother Hezbollah, they didn't do so well. But like a child in a full temper tantrum Israel laid waste to Lebanon in an orgy of indiscriminate destruction. As for the Palestinians, they have gotten used to that after 59 years.

Fatah delivered nothing and now Hamas, itself a creation of Israeli repression, will likely replace Fatah. Long term its not going to help Israel or the USA as Hamas goes for wider regional support. At least Hamas can deliver the social services Israel is responsible for delivering and hence can play the role of a carrot. And Hezbollah is always out there ready to play the role of a stick.

And if Israel retaliates against the carrot, they will lose the PR battle. Arab tactics are evolving and Israel's tactics are not. And there is a price to pay for betting on the wrong horse.

All in all, it makes the mid-east a far more volatile region and complicates matters.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Aisengard
and then Hamas will turn on Israel with a vengeance.

Bye-bye Hamas.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Last time Israel tried to take on Hamas's brother Hezbollah, they didn't do so well. But like a child in a full temper tantrum Israel laid waste to Lebanon in an orgy of indiscriminate destruction. As for the Palestinians, they have gotten used to that after 59 years.

Fatah delivered nothing and now Hamas, itself a creation of Israeli repression, will likely replace Fatah. Long term its not going to help Israel or the USA as Hamas goes for wider regional support. At least Hamas can deliver the social services Israel is responsible for delivering and hence can play the role of a carrot. And Hezbollah is always out there ready to play the role of a stick.

And if Israel retaliates against the carrot, they will lose the PR battle. Arab tactics are evolving and Israel's tactics are not. And there is a price to pay for betting on the wrong horse.

All in all, it makes the mid-east a far more volatile region and complicates matters.

All these groups have figured out is the media and left in the West are useful idiots. Lob a bunch of rockets at Israel, Israel responds, leftists and the media make Israel out to be a bad guy because an errant bullet killed some bystander.

Israel has long since for the most part stopped caring about what the left in the West has to say. However they are on the leash of the US and thus are hand tied in how much they can actually do. I am sure if what happened last summer happened in say 1964, the result would have been much different.


 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Aisengard
and then Hamas will turn on Israel with a vengeance.

Bye-bye Hamas.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Last time Israel tried to take on Hamas's brother Hezbollah, they didn't do so well. But like a child in a full temper tantrum Israel laid waste to Lebanon in an orgy of indiscriminate destruction. As for the Palestinians, they have gotten used to that after 59 years.

You exaggerate what Israel did to Lebanon. If they were cruel and brutal enough Hezbollah would have been incapable of firing those rockets - they'd have no place to shoot from. Instead Israel allowed a vast majority of the Lebanese to survive within rocket range instead of forcing them out - along with the enemy fighters. Such soft heartedness allowed Hezbollah to continue to operate in Lebanon within striking range of Israel.

So in my view, Israel was not brutal enough to secure itself from Hezbollah. If rockets fired from a town, why did that town still exist the next day to continue shooting? Eventually the war zone would have extended beyond the range of the rockets and Israel would have been secure. Instead Israel gave into the cowardice of the international community and made the lives of its enemies a higher priority than winning the war. Thus, under the protection of the UN Hezbollah was allowed to survive and claim victory.

Now, after saying all that ? I agree that Israel did not do well. I also see no reason why they?d grow the will to do what is necessary next time. So if Hamas continues to attack Israel, I see no reason why Hamas should feel threatened while under the protection of the UN and Israel?s own cowardice to not stand up for itself.
 
To jackalas---who asks--If rockets fired from a town, why did that town still exist the next day to continue shooting?

Let me hypothetically ask---if I found out what town you lived in---and then snuck into your town---and set up a mobile rocket launcher---and pegged off a few rockets before anyone could stop me, and then got the hell out of town----you would feel that its perfectly all right to call in the US air force and totally bomb your entire home town and every building in it to rubble? But cheer up, I would never do such a thing---but a terrorist will and the terrorist will know whoever destroys the town will catch the hatreds.

You must remember that these rockets are very mobile and can be set up and fired very rapidly. And the nearby residents may be unaware or have no choice because the rascals firing the rockets also have guns and the local inhabitants often don't.

 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To jackalas---who asks--If rockets fired from a town, why did that town still exist the next day to continue shooting?

Let me hypothetically ask---if I found out what town you lived in---and then snuck into your town---and set up a mobile rocket launcher---and pegged off a few rockets before anyone could stop me, and then got the hell out of town----you would feel that its perfectly all right to call in the US air force and totally bomb your entire home town and every building in it to rubble? But cheer up, I would never do such a thing---but a terrorist will and the terrorist will know whoever destroys the town will catch the hatreds.

You must remember that these rockets are very mobile and can be set up and fired very rapidly. And the nearby residents may be unaware or have no choice because the rascals firing the rockets also have guns and the local inhabitants often don't.
At what point should the inhabitants of a town or area take responsiblity for their own safety/area?

Inhabitants of Lebanon have weapons; and according to many, support Hezbollah as an entity.

 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Aisengard
and then Hamas will turn on Israel with a vengeance.

Bye-bye Hamas.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Last time Israel tried to take on Hamas's brother Hezbollah, they didn't do so well. But like a child in a full temper tantrum Israel laid waste to Lebanon in an orgy of indiscriminate destruction. As for the Palestinians, they have gotten used to that after 59 years.
.

Doesn't help you when the UN supplies the enemy with your troop movements as the UN did in Lebanon for Hezbollah. Also didn't help that Israel caved into world pressure after Hezbollah showed the knew how to manipulate the media of the West.

Hell if there is something dumber than a politician it can only be a reporter.
 
link

The US, under a programme led by General Keith Dayton, is spending $59m to reform and strengthen the presidential guard, which is loyal to the Fatah leader and Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. Yet many fear this could force the rival factions into a civil war. Yossi Alpher, an Israeli analyst and former government adviser, notes in the latest edition of the internet magazine Bitter Lemons that this is sending a mixed message.

"The Dayton plan appears to reflect a broad American strategy - across the region, from Somalia via Palestine and Lebanon and Iraq - of strengthening internal forces that oppose militant Islamists," he writes. "Yet those Islamists in many cases owe their rise to power to US-supported democratisation schemes. The obvious contradictions embodied in this American approach are not lost on the peoples of the region."

The Bush administration is busy meddling in other nations business all over the place, but do they not realize that meddling only undercuts the credibility of those they ostensibly support.

Haaretz

Peres: If Abbas asks, Israel will act to help him amid Gaza fighting
By News Agencies

Israel is ready to help Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas as his Fatah faction battles Hamas in Gaza, Vice Premier Shimon Peres said on Wednesday.

At a news conference after a meeting with Estonia's prime minister, Peres said Israel would not intervene directly in hostilities but would respond to specific requests from Abbas.

"We should help Mr. Abbas in his fight against the terrorists," he said in answer to reporters' questions.

Hehe, the land stealers supporting the lame duck president of the country they are stealing land from. Gee I wonder why.




 
To EagleKeeper,

Hezbollah started last summers rocket barrages with about 25% Lebanese support according to the polling data I have seen. By the time the rockets stopped and Israel was limping home minus some destroyed tanks and captured soldiers, Hezbollah support in Lebanon increased sharply to around 75%.

And then you ask---At what point should the inhabitants of a town or area take responsibility for their own safety/area? Which ignores the fact that these rockets are highly portable and easily concealable. So they can be fired before anyone in the area even know they are there. With the terrorist knowing full well that Israel and not they will catch the blame for retaliation. See above polling data for conformation.

Anyone who thinks local inhabitants of neighboring countries will shill for Israel is deep in self delusion.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To EagleKeeper,

Hezbollah started last summers rocket barrages with about 25% Lebanese support according to the polling data I have seen. By the time the rockets stopped and Israel was limping home minus some destroyed tanks and captured soldiers, Hezbollah support in Lebanon increased sharply to around 75%.

And then you ask---At what point should the inhabitants of a town or area take responsibility for their own safety/area? Which ignores the fact that these rockets are highly portable and easily concealable. So they can be fired before anyone in the area even know they are there. With the terrorist knowing full well that Israel and not they will catch the blame for retaliation. See above polling data for conformation.

Anyone who thinks local inhabitants of neighboring countries will shill for Israel is deep in self delusion.
no one expects the to back Israel.

In the same light, then should Israel attack the launching positions of the rockets, they can also accept such responsibility.l

Hezbollah ran Southern Lebanon according to most sources.
If they acted as a government, then they have to accept the responsibilty of their actions.

 
To EagleKeeper---who again asserts---In the same light, then should Israel attack the launching positions of the rockets, they can also accept such responsibility.l

Its clear how you feel---and to a certain extent you may have a valid argument---but you can't control how others feel---and when Israeli retaliation follows---they may well go from being neutral to an active Hezzbollah supporter. And the international community and the UN may indeed make Israel pay a very high price if the retaliation is not highly focused and justifiable.

The same UN that made Israel can also unmake Israel. Losing the high moral ground is very risky as we in the USA will find out.
 
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