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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Charrison, I don't want to cop out here, but I would like some time to consider what I would have recommended. It's not something I've thought about before. Fore me, thinking that one action is wrong doesn't mean that I've generated an alternative actions. Sometimes I have, but not in this case. I'll write again in this thread tomorrow.
So are you always so critical about the decisions of others, even thoughtyou have put no thought into it yourself??
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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The fact that I don't formulate an alternative doesn't mean I don't think about the decision my government makes. They act in my name, I have the right to approve or disapprove and talk about it. I don't run the government and am not a part of it. I don't have the responsibility for coming up with ideas. Since you asked for ideas, however, I'll give you some tomorrow. Some that fall in between the extremes of "do nothing," and "invade." You'll love the mid ranges choices in decisions once you start to realize they are there. You might not like what I suggest, but start trying to think in terms of either A or B.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
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Iraq declared war on us FIRST. Saddam constantly fires at our planes and UN planes. Then he kicks out the weapons inspectors, yeah he has nothing to hide


But the important part was he was consistently firing at us for 6 years...

so we merely fired back for about 6 weeks. pretty faire trade
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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Do you realize that our planes were violating the air space of a sovereign country? We flew at our own instruction. It was not a U.N. mission. I have trouble faulting a country for that. And, although I'm not entirely sure, this last time, he didn't kick out the inspectors. They were withdrawn by the U.N. As for "firing back for about six weeks," what a disengenuous thing to say. We dropped more explosives than we did in WW II.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Whitling
The fact that I don't formulate an alternative doesn't mean I don't think about the decision my government makes. They act in my name, I have the right to approve or disapprove and talk about it. I don't run the government and am not a part of it. I don't have the responsibility for coming up with ideas. Since you asked for ideas, however, I'll give you some tomorrow. Some that fall in between the extremes of "do nothing," and "invade." You'll love the mid ranges choices in decisions once you start to realize they are there. You might not like what I suggest, but start trying to think in terms of either A or B.
Well I dont see how one can be highly critical of a decision without giving it any thought. I usaully to figure out what a good decision would have been before ripping what has been done.

I look forward to hearing what you would have done. I think once you put some thought into, i think you will be surprised at how few options there really are.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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Yes, Charrison, but you only have two alternatives to consider. Life is more complicated for some of us.

This is the part where I'm glad I live in California. I'll get in the last word tonight.;) I've been thinking of moving to Hawaii.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Whitling
Yes, Charrison, but you only have two alternatives to consider. Life is more complicated for some of us.

This is the part where I'm glad I live in California. I'll get in the last word tonight.;) I've been thinking of moving to Hawaii.
Who said I only had 2 alternatives to consider.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Whitling
I'll get in the last word tonight.;)
Ah, but by the time you get done with today(tonight) the rest of us will already be into tommorow;) Seems you Cali people are always trying to catch up...and those east coasters are always trying to jump the gun. Boy it's good to be in the "Central" part of time:p

CkG
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Well he is reporting that no weapons stocks have been found, but you left where he describes the hidden research facilties and other undeclared things.
Yes, the laboratories that were "suitable" for CBW research -- though they found no evidence any of them were ever used for this purpose. What a surprise that a modern country had modern labs.

They found a prison laboratory complex "possibly" used for human testing -- though they found no evidence it ever was.

They found a vial of "biological organisms", specifically live C. botulinum Okra B. bacteria. It was apparently purchased from a lab in the U.S. in the early 1980's. This strain is less virulent than botulinum A and has never been successfully used in weapons. They found no botulism toxin at all, just the one 20-year old vial of a comparatively benign strain of the bacteria.

They found two trailers that many people here claim were mobile WMD labs. Kay himself, however, admitted that they "have not yet been able to corroborate the existence of a mobile BW production effort." Most experts think the trailers were for hydrogen production, a possibility Kay acknowledges.

They found all sorts of production faciliities that might have dual-use capabilities. They found no evidence that even one of these facilities had ever been used to produce proscribed materials.

They found "cooperative sources" who gave them all sorts of information about WMDs Iraq had (past tense). They did not find any of these of these weapons, however.

They found "Multiple sources with varied access and reliability have told ISG that Iraq did not have a large, ongoing, centrally controlled CW program after 1991." And, "Information found to date suggests that Iraq's large-scale capability to develop, produce, and fill new CW munitions was reduced -- if not entirely destroyed -- during Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, 13 years of UN sanctions and UN inspections." (Shhhh! Don't tell the YABAs, but Kay found that UN sanctions and inspections were working.)

The bottom line? Iraq was not squeaky clean. Iraq did not want the U.S. to know what it was doing, I'll even stipulate Saddam Hussein was a brutal thug, though Kay did not corroborate this. However, Kay did NOT find any of the WMD stockpiles or the "thousands of liters" or the nuclear weapons capabilities that Bush and his minions yammered about for months to justify their unliateral invasion of Iraq. They lied, plain and simple. Kay's work only confirms what most of the world already knew.




 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
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Charrison: "Who said I only had 2 alternatives to consider."

You certainly implied that there were only two alternatives. Instead of asking me what other alternatives you were, you said,
"So you think we were better off leaving afghanistan to be terrorist nest?" Charrison, as I've said earlier in the thread, just because I think the invasion was ill-advised, doesn't mean that my alternative is to "leave afghanistan to be a terrorist nest." Your the one who staked the straw man to that particular extreme position.

See you later today.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Whitling
Charrison: "Who said I only had 2 alternatives to consider."[B/]

You certainly implied that there were only two alternatives. Instead of asking me what other alternatives you were, you said,
"So you think we were better off leaving afghanistan to be terrorist nest?" Charrison, as I've said earlier in the thread, just because I think the invasion was ill-advised, doesn't mean that my alternative is to "leave afghanistan to be a terrorist nest." Your the one who staked the straw man to that particular extreme position.

See you later today.


Well maybe I read you wrong, but it sounded like you wanted nothing done in Afghanistan.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
It's too bad nobody mentioned that we got the target in the house.

You think it is a coincidence that terrorists surround themselves with women in children? So if they do get capped, they make great headlines :(

Bless their souls, they didn't do anything wrong :( 9 innocent lives is a high price to pay for 1 evil one, but I doubt we had intelligence that there were lots of kids in the building.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
It's too bad nobody mentioned that we got the target in the house.

You think it is a coincidence that terrorists surround themselves with women in children? So if they do get capped, they make great headlines :(

Bless their souls, they didn't do anything wrong :( 9 innocent lives is a high price to pay for 1 evil one, but I doubt we had intelligence that there were lots of kids in the building.
Granted, it's a difficult situation. Where do you draw the line between exposing troops to danger and safeguarding civilian lives? One has to question why we have to bomb a house to take out one individual -- don't we have any snipers? -- but circumstances may have made this the best option.

Nonetheless, we need to recognize we will be loudly criticized whenever we kill civilians, and it will aggravate relations with the local populace. That hurts our mission, at least in the short- to mid-term. I hope our military strategists take that into consideration when they weigh the pros and cons of each attack. We don't want to win the battles while losing the war -- literally.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
It's too bad nobody mentioned that we got the target in the house.

You think it is a coincidence that terrorists surround themselves with women in children? So if they do get capped, they make great headlines :(

Bless their souls, they didn't do anything wrong :( 9 innocent lives is a high price to pay for 1 evil one, but I doubt we had intelligence that there were lots of kids in the building.
Do you really think the local Afghanis care whether it was an intel failure or not? 9 little kids are dead because of our heavy-handed tactics. Why bomb a house when you could have special forces surround it? The target has to leave sometime.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
It's too bad nobody mentioned that we got the target in the house.

You think it is a coincidence that terrorists surround themselves with women in children? So if they do get capped, they make great headlines :(

Bless their souls, they didn't do anything wrong :( 9 innocent lives is a high price to pay for 1 evil one, but I doubt we had intelligence that there were lots of kids in the building.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3298945.stm
US officials said they were acting on extensive intelligence and had killed a former Taleban militant, Mullah Wazir.

But local Afghans told the BBC's Crispin Thorold the intended target had left the village 10 days earlier.


President Hamid Karzai has expressed his shock at the incident.
There was further confusion on this point: Reuters news agency quoted beloved patriot Assadullah, governor of Ghazni province, as saying: "It has not been ascertained if Mullah Wazir was killed or not, but the house was his."
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
Charrison asked me earlier in this thread what I'd have done about Afghanistan when it was harboring Osama. I pleaded for time to think about it. That time is pretty much up. I want a little more time. It's a hard problem, no infrastructure to speak of, lots of guns and support from the surrounding countries and Osama living with people who hate our guts. Hmmm. I'll probably start a new thread on what I think should have been done in Afghanistan. That will leave lots of room for criticism and comment without having to turn to page 2, as we're about to have to do in this thread.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Not sure what you'd recommend for Afghanistan, Whitling . . . IMHO, Afghanistan was warranted. Iraq was not. It's as clear-cut in my mind as our nation's forests after passage of the 'healthy forest initiative.' ;)
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
DealMonkey, I value your posts. I started this as a PM but then thought the subject matter was worth a post. I hate people who sin in public and apologize in private.

Yes, I'm not quite sure what to say about Afghanistan. I am completely torn between the need to observe the law (national sovereignity) and the need to "get the son of a bitch." I think that there are some issues on which "taking the long view" is worth it. 9/11 is right at the cusp for me. I could go on, but the point is, Charrison asked, "What would you do." I think that if you're going to bitch, you need to be prepared with an alternative solution (ADDED for a public post: "And that goes for both sides.") . Afghanistan is a very hard case for me because there seem to be very few alternatives to armed invasion and the ordinary people were living under what I consider the worst theocracy of which I've ever read. Heaven forbid that Charrison be able to change my mind (something that's not permitted on this board), but he did pose a question that gives me pause for thought.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Let us know when you formulate an answer Whitling.

I'm 99% sure that there is no legitimate "bleeding heart liberal" (in your own words) response to afghanistan. Unless you suggest we kill them with kindness ;)

Sometimes things are just black and white, aren't they? But I'd love to give you the opportunity to change my mind also...hence the 1%
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Bowfinger - <<They found two trailers that many people here claim were mobile WMD labs. Kay himself, however, admitted that they "have not yet been able to corroborate the existence of a mobile BW production effort." Most experts think the trailers were for hydrogen production, a possibility Kay acknowledges.>>

I'm going to save this little paragraph to be used in response to the endless number of times those mobile labs are brought up.
 

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