Welcome to Club Gitmo: North

[sciwizam]

Wow, all day went by and no thread on this?

Rural Illinois prison to get some Gitmo detainees

President Barack Obama has ordered the federal government to acquire an underused state prison in rural Illinois to be the new home for a limited number of terror suspects now held at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.The federal government will acquire Thomson Correctional Center in Thomson, Ill., transforming the prison in a sleepy town near the Mississippi River into a prison that exceeds "supermax standards," according to a letter to Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn signed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, Attorney General Eric Holder and Director of National Intelligence Dennis C. Blair.
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The decision is an important step toward closing Guantanamo Bay. Thomson, about 150 miles from Chicago, is expected to house both federal inmates and no more than 100 detainees from Guantanamo Bay.

So, where does this stand with regards to the prisoner status situation?

Senior Administration Official: "Will need some change of law" to facilitate indefinite detention

So does that mean that since the detainees won’t be “released” in the US, the White House is arguing their transfer to a prison on US soil would be perfectly legal?
“It is permissible under US law to bring in detainees for prosecution,” says a senior administration official.
Current law, said a second senior administration official, “would allow for the transfer to the continental United States of detainees to face trial

There are four categories of detainee currently at Guantanamo.
• First, “those who will face trial in Article 3 in federal courts,” the second official said. They “will be transferred directly to that jurisdiction.”
• Second, those who will be “transferred to our friends or allies overseas” will go overseas directly from Gitmo.
• Third, those who would face trial in military commissions will be housed at Thomson. The military commission trials will take place at Thomson.
• The last category consists of -- as President Obama put it in his speech at the National Archives -- “people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States.”
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So where would they go? The second senior administration official said that “there are no specific cases today that meet that standard that the President has signed off on.” They want Thomson to be a place for these individuals, but currently “it would be a violation of the law to transfer prisoners to Thomson for the purpose of anything other than prosecution” so the administration acknowledges they “will need some change of law… Ultimately the facility would allow for the detention of some number of detainees who the President outlined in the Archives speech as not being tryable either in federal courts or in military commissions.” And Thomson “would be a facility for such detention.”
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Best of all are these comments:

James Jones, National Security Adviser (from the AP article linked above)

White House national security adviser James Jones said shifting detainees to Thomson would make the United States more secure, and removes "a recruiting tool that Guantanamo Bay has come to symbolize" for terror organizations.

Robert Gibbs

Thirty-two times since 2001 and four times this year alone, senior Al Qaida leadership in recruiting videos have used the prison at Guantanamo Bay as a clarion call to bring extremists from around the world to join their effort.

Closing Guantanamo Bay makes this country safer. And if he's confused about that, or if anybody's confused about that, he can ask the secretary of defense, he can ask the secretary of defense in the previous administration, the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from the previous administration, the commander for Afghanistan and Iraq that oversees that region of the world from the previous administration why they support closing Guantanamo Bay and support today's decision.

Following their asinine logic, if closing Gitmo makes us safer, what about a Gitmo with a new zip code? Al-Qaida won't make videos now as Thomson Correctional Center doesn't exactly rhyme with Guantanamo?

And the title of this thread, from Glenn Greenwald

 

[Double Trouble]

I know the administration is in a pickle with this, there's no nice clean way out.... but how the heck does just moving the prisoners from Gitmo to some other place change anything? As long as they are being held in some prison without being charged with anything or convicted of anything, it will continue to be seen as a travesty unbecoming of the greatest country on earth.

 

[Zorkorist]

This has got to be Obama's biggest mistake to date, and that is saying a lot.

These are not Americans, they are foreign combatants, and they have no place in American Courts.

-John

 

[cubeless]

this prison was a boondoggle to start with... now they're reselling it to the feds, swell... maybe get some use out of it finally... and it's another 3k jobs for bo...

 

[sciwizam]

this prison was a boondoggle to start with... now they're reselling it to the feds, swell... maybe get some use out of it finally... and it's another 3k jobs for bo...

But first, it seems, they want to expand the capability of the facility to beyond Supermax standards.

 

[Zorkorist]

How could ya'll be sitting on an empty prison?

Politics?

 

[cubby1223]

Ooh, they'll be housed less than a hundred miles from me!

 

[Patranus]

Waste a billion dollars (borrowed from China) to move these prisoners from one perfectly functional prison on American soil to a closed prison on American soil.

Sounds like a solid investment......

 

[chucky2]

Obama's throwing a bone to someone(s) in IL...

Why would we transfer prisoners near a place with river access, major highways close, and close to one of the largest cities in the US?

You can't just help to smile at hearing sh1t like this....

Chuck

 

[Mani]

Waste a billion dollars (borrowed from China) to move these prisoners from one perfectly functional prison on American soil to a closed prison on American soil.

Sounds like a solid investment......

And running Guantanamo was free?

 

[Skitzer]

Hey, bottom line: We are creating new jobs ........ that's all that really matters.

 

[boomerang]

Hey, bottom line: We are creating new jobs ........ that's all that really matters.

I hope this is sarcasm.

 

[First]

I hope this is sarcasm.

Well we are; 671,000 jobs lost in January, versus 11,000 last month. Though of course that has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[boomerang]

Well we are; 671,000 jobs lost in January, versus 11,000 last month. Though of course that has nothing to do with this thread.

While it is unclear at this time if the Illinois prison will be staffed with federal employees or state employees (probably a mix) even it were to end up being state employees only, the principles in the following article apply.

Federal Employees at the Trough

Tough it out and read the whole article. Here's a few highlights.

[FONT=times new roman,times][FONT=times new roman,times]On top of all these incentives, Congress has recently decided to expand the handouts. While consumer prices have steadily declined throughout 2009 ([FONT=times new roman,times]the annual CPI rate fell 0.2%[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] through October), the U.S. Congress just passed legislation that would provide an across-the -board [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]2% pay raise[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] for all federal employees. As such, federal employees will soon receive a 2.2% real pay increase as private sector wages remain stagnant or fall.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Currently, the U.S. Office of Personal Management estimates that there are just over [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]4.2 million federal employees[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]. Thus, based on the average salary figures reported by USA Today, total wages paid to all federal employees now total nearly $300 billion per year, or about $1,000 for every man, women, and child in the United States. Add to this figure the costs of insurance, paid time off, and retirement benefits (which have not even been quantified here), and the total federal outlay to "pay" federal employees soars by billions more. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Simply stated, this trend cannot be sustained.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Increasing the size of the the government workforce increases not just jobs, it increases our costs in oftentimes unfavorable ways.

I suppose an argument could be made that imprisoning radical Muslim terrorists ends up saving the U.S. money in the long run. Perhaps there's a study out there showing a cost-benefit analysis incorporating the costs of adding 3000 federal employees? Perhaps it includes the costs of keeping the soldiers currently guarding them employed and the costs of construction and maintenance of Gitmo? The cost of refurbishing the prison in Illinois should of course be included.

You were correct in your statement. It has nothing to do with this thread, it's more of an irrelevant knee jerk reaction.

 

[Carmen813]

This has got to be Obama's biggest mistake to date, and that is saying a lot.

These are not Americans, they are foreign combatants, and they have no place in American Courts.

-John

I missed it, when did Congress declare war?

Oh that's right...they didn't. Until they do so, President's can't just do whatever the hell they want with prisoners (or really, with troops...but it appears multiple Presidents don't get that).

 

[heyheybooboo]

My first impression when checking it out on Google Earth is that Thomson looks strikingly similar to the Star of David.



So. Regardless of the politics I'm pretty much in favor simply as a way to give AQ and the Taliban da finger!



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[wiretap]

Well we are; 671,000 jobs lost in January, versus 11,000 last month. Though of course that has nothing to do with this thread.

If you lose $671,000 at the casino this month, then go back next month and lose $11,000 dollars, does that mean you made money? No.. it means you lost more. Stay away from the business sector please, whatever you do with your life. But, by your math, that automatically qualifies you for a cabinet position at the highest level of government.

 

[whylaff]

I missed it, when did Congress declare war?

Oh that's right...they didn't. Until they do so, President's can't just do whatever the hell they want with prisoners (or really, with troops...but it appears multiple Presidents don't get that).

There are issues with what you are implying, primarily because the Supreme Court has never dictated specifically that one branch is responsible for going to war and the other isn’t. The Court has consistently viewed the Constitution as ambiguous on the matter, and routinely defers to the President in matters of foreign affairs. The War Powers Resolution has been ignored many times in the past. Regardless of that legislation, the truth is that one can be at war without a declaration of war from Congress.

However, in this situation, The War Powers Resolution was invoked in the AUNF legislation after 9/11. The primary issue is that there has never been any notion of indefinite detainment without appropriate proceedings, regardless of classification of the individual as enemy combatant. Further, the right to due process under the law has absolutely nothing to do with the citizenship status of someone.

This is the primary area where Obama had the ability to say his predecessor really dropped the ball, but I am rather skeptical of his desire to keep some enemy combatants in that indefinite state of detainment without any proceedings.

 

[Ausm]

The paranoia of the GOP for transferring these prisoners to this Illinois super max prison is laughable at best.

 

[wiretap]

The paranoia of the GOP for transferring these prisoners to this Illinois super max prison is laughable at best.

Since when do foreign battlefield combatants get housed in our civilian jails and afforded the Constitutional rights of our citizens, including trial in civilian court? That's a military tribunal and military detention issue, not ours -- Nor is it a right versus left issue. Next thing you know, soldiers will have to carry lawyers on their back on the battle field and read combatants their miranda rights before they take any action on them.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Since when do foreign battlefield combatants get housed in our civilian jails and afforded the Constitutional rights of our citizens, including trial in civilian court? That's a military tribunal and military detention issue, not ours -- Nor is it a right versus left issue. Next thing you know, soldiers will have to carry lawyers on their back on the battle field and read combatants their miranda rights before they take any action on them.

LOL @ 'battlefield combatants'

I'm thinking a lot of these germs were not picked up on a battlefield so your initial premise is false.

That's why a certain percentage of them will never see the light of day, much less a tribunal or criminal trial.

The best they can hope for is a trip back to their country of origin to be tortured some more, killed, 're-educated' or the opportunity to die in a hell-hole prison.

AND the possibility that our 'allies' (such as the Saudis, Yemenites (LOL), Afghans, Pakistanis, Iraqis, etc.) may possibly return them to the wild.

And I'd say we are stuck with the Uighurs because China has already said (or implied) they will be executed.



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[wiretap]

LOL @ 'battlefield combatants'

I'm thinking a lot of these germs were not picked up on a battlefield so your initial premise is false.

That's why a certain percentage of them will never see the light of day, much less a tribunal or criminal trial.

The best they can hope for is a trip back to their country of origin to be tortured some more, killed, 're-educated' or the opportunity to die in a hell-hole prison.

AND the possibility that our 'allies' (such as the Saudis, Yemenites (LOL), Afghans, Pakistanis, Iraqis, etc.) may possibly return them to the wild.

And I'd say we are stuck with the Uighurs because China has already said (or implied) they will be executed.



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Yes, I'm aware. You can speculate all you want about where they came from and the what ifs and the conspiracy theories, but if we are going by the book and what the military is reporting, then my statement stands.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Yes, I'm aware. You can speculate all you want about where they came from and the what ifs and the conspiracy theories, but if we are going by the book and what the military is reporting, then my statement stands.

No.

It does not.

You speculated that all the remaining inmates at Gitmo were 'battlefield combatants'. They are not all characterized as such. As a matter of fact only 80 or so of the remaining 'detainees' seem to be 'qualified' for tribunals or criminal courts.

By far the biggest issue seems to hinge around 100 or so 'terrorism suspects' from Yemen who seem to be indirectly linked to AQ (or at the least 'sympathetic').

Of course, the immediate fear is that they will return to the 'brotherhood' and their terr-orific ways. The Saudis have 'volunteered' to 're-educate' them (most likely meaning they will be tortured and killed ???) but Yemen has opposed this.

Being 'lite' on facts as you are, most likely you do not realize that a Yemen 'safe-house' was a critical communication hub used by AQ in the 9/11 attacks.

Come back when your knee is not jerking, and you have something of substance to add to the discussion ....



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[Zargon]

How could ya'll be sitting on an empty prison?

Politics?

corrupt govt ran itself into the ground, it cant afford to staff the prison fully.

we have no money

 

[wiretap]

No.

It does not.

You speculated that all the remaining inmates at Gitmo were 'battlefield combatants'. They are not all characterized as such. As a matter of fact only 80 or so of the remaining 'detainees' seem to be 'qualified' for tribunals or criminal courts.

By far the biggest issue seems to hinge around 100 or so 'terrorism suspects' from Yemen who seem to be indirectly linked to AQ (or at the least 'sympathetic').

Of course, the immediate fear is that they will return to the 'brotherhood' and their terr-orific ways. The Saudis have 'volunteered' to 're-educate' them (most likely meaning they will be tortured and killed ???) but Yemen has opposed this.

Being 'lite' on facts as you are, most likely you do not realize that a Yemen 'safe-house' was a critical communication hub used by AQ in the 9/11 attacks.

Come back when your knee is not jerking, and you have something of substance to add to the discussion ....



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Foreign battlefield combatants doesn't mean they have to be picked up on an actual battlefield found shooting at people. The so-called battlefield has been defined as many things in the war on terror by our government.