Wealthy Clintons Use Trusts to Limit Estate Tax They Back

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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,517
15,399
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So when one person pays more voluntarily it's stupid and pointless, but when progressives get their way and coerce lots of people to pay more it morphs into good public policy?

If by coerce you mean by getting democratically elected in large enough amounts to push through legislation by majority rule and then to have that legislation signed into law by a democrat president, then yeah, it does sound like good policy!
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Remember changing the law has zero affect on the current irrevocable trusts already created.

Also remember what the Clintons did by creating an irrevocable trust is nothing like some off shore account used to hide money.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
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You're confusing advocating laws that seek to enforce a particular concept of morality and advocating laws that seek to further a government or societal purpose.

Laws that enforce morality contain the the implicit message "Those who engage in the behavior that are illegal under his law are behaving immorally." So an advocate of such a law is in fact "judging" others, and if the advocate nevertheless engages in the the action deemed immoral, he/she is in fact a hypocrite.

But I'm not aware of many people who think that doing everything legally possible to minimize one's taxes is "immoral," And advocating changes the the tax laws isn't an attempt to enforce morality.

Let's explore:

PoliticusUSA said:
Republicans continue to argue that 2% of the wealthiest Americans should have permanent tax cuts, it is becoming more evident that this issue is moral as well as economical.

http://www.politicususa.com/2010/12/04/bush-cuts-moral.html

Pelosi said:
She argued tax reform needs to be bipartisan or nonpartisan, but then said the GOP tax proposal "almost has an immorality to it." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pelosi-immorality-in-gop-tax-plan/

Bill Clinton said:
“I resent it,” Clinton said, his voice rising in anger. “I think it’s immoral, I think it’s unethical.” - http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=21465

Kristen Powers said:
The conservative Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu of Louisiana has dubbed the tax cuts as the “Obama-McConnell Plan” and described it as “ almost morally corrupt.” But that’s generous. The plan is not “almost morally corrupt” but absolutely morally corrupt, no matter what the president said at the hastily called press conference yesterday. - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...bama-gives-wealthiest-undeserved-tax-cut.html

Clearly various liberal sources, including Bill Clinton himself, believe that the wealthy not paying more in taxes is an issue of morality.

For example, I believe that taxes on the wealthiest in society should be significantly higher, because it's clear that there's a very unhealthy economic trend that's concentrating more and more of our country's wealth in the hands of a smaller and smaller fraction of the population. It's undeniable, and it's hard to imagine why anyone (other that those at the extreme top end of the wealth distribution) would want to continue this trend. In other words, I think our tax system is making things worse and worse for the vast, vast, vast majority of the population, and advocating various changes to reverse that trend isn't based on morality; it's based on wanting to encourage a society where many or most people are thriving, not just a tiny fraction of society. So advocating such changes - unlike those who want to make all abortions illegal - isn't "judging" those who take the fullest possible advantage of the current system. And if the advocate continues to take advantage of all tax benefits while they're still available, that's not hypocrisy.

You honestly think that when liberals throw around terms like the 1%, the Buffet-Rule and paying one's "fair share" they aren't characterizing the income gap and the [lack of] taxes paid by the wealthy as a moral issue?

And here you've cited two "morality" examples, and then you jump the shark and claim that advocating for tax-law changes is also about morality. You're simply wrong.

Okay, here are two non-moral examples. Advocating for a law requiring people to store their garbage cans in a location not visible from the street excluding the 24 hours immediately before and after a scheduled pickup is a criticism of those who keep their trash cans in the front yard. If you keep your garbage cans there despite the failure of that law, you are a hypocrite.

Advocating for a law limiting downtown parking to 2-hours is a criticism of those who park there for longer. If the law doesn't pass and you park your car there all day, you are a hypocrite.

I disagree with you because you seem to think that all laws are about morality.

I'm focusing on how liberals behave in comparison to their own moral beliefs regarding the payment of taxes by the wealthy. The way liberals talk about taxes on the wealthy, they certainly seem to think it is about morality.

And I disagree. If either the Clintons or the Romneys voluntarily paid higher taxes, it would be a pointless exercise. In fact, paying extra money in this way would be really, really stupid.

The whole argument that one voluntary extra payment would be stupid is a non sequitur that is used to rationalize behavior so the person doesn't feel bad. The government can spend any increase in tax revenues, even if some people don't pay the increase. Thus, an individual's contribution is independent of others' contributions, and said individual can be assured with 100% certainty, that their contribution, no matter how small, will be used. Every little bit counts, so go ahead and pay that little bit extra.

To help you recognize that the argument is a rationalization, here's the same argument on a different topic: "My individual carbon footprint is a tiny fraction of the world's, so there is no point in trying to reduce it."

There is also the issue that a political leader such as the Clinton's putting their money where their mouth is may encourage other wealthy liberal politicians to follow suit.

It would be much more effective if either family paid extra money in support of specific causes they think are under-funded. And in fact they DO do exactly that: it's called "charity."

Are the Clinton's planning on reducing their charitable contributions if tax raises on the wealthy are enacted? If no, then their charitable contributions don't justify their failure to pay the taxes they believe they should owe. If yes, then I would question why it would be beneficial to increase taxes when that will hurt charitable contributions.

Also, I presume that since that organizations such as the American Red Cross get large amounts of donations, I shouldn't bother increasing my donation by a few bucks because it won't make a difference.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
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Let's explore:

Clearly various liberal sources, including Bill Clinton himself, believe that the wealthy not paying more in taxes is an issue of morality.
I think there's a clear distinction between - on the one hand - the morality of Republicans in creating and maintaining a system that allows the wealthy to pay even lower tax rates than the middle class, and - on the other hand - the morality of the wealthy who merely minimize their taxes under the system Republicans fight so hard to maintain.

In fact, this gets to the heart of the situation with the Clintons: They are advocating for a fairer tax system, even though under that system they would be forced to pay more. It's their advocacy that's moral; their payment of taxes under whatever system exists is amoral. On the other hand, a wealthy person who fights to maintain or even increase his tax advantage is being unreasonably greedy - immoral; but, again, his adherence to whatever tax system is in place is amoral.

You honestly think that when liberals throw around terms like the 1%, the Buffet-Rule and paying one's "fair share" they aren't characterizing the income gap and the [lack of] taxes paid by the wealthy as a moral issue?
See my paragraph above: It's the system that allows the 1% to continue to pay such low taxes that's immoral. The "fair share" is the share that the liberals want the tax system to dictate. Are you claiming that liberals are telling rich people to voluntarily pay more than what is owed under the current tax rules? No, they're fighting to change the unfair, immoral tax system.

Okay, here are two non-moral examples. Advocating for a law requiring people to store their garbage cans in a location not visible from the street excluding the 24 hours immediately before and after a scheduled pickup is a criticism of those who keep their trash cans in the front yard. If you keep your garbage cans there despite the failure of that law, you are a hypocrite.

Advocating for a law limiting downtown parking to 2-hours is a criticism of those who park there for longer. If the law doesn't pass and you park your car there all day, you are a hypocrite.
But I think these ARE moral issues. Those who store their garbage in locations visible from the street are making the community look ugly, affecting everyone nearby. This is similar to playing loud music in public, which any sensitive person knows upsets those nearby. Anyone advocating laws on these behaviors is in fact making a point about being a good citizen, a considerate neighbor. So, yes, if they then store their garbage cans publicly or play loud music, they are both bad neighbors AND hypocrites. The same goes for your 2-hour parking example. And for driving exactly 55 miles an hour in the left-hand land, with 20 cars piled up behind you.

Compare this with a person taking full advantage of the tax code: Who around that person is directly affected by their behavior? Who sees an ugly community? Who is irritated? Who cannot find parking? Who is held up in traffic for no good reason? All you can argue is that the year's deficit was $20,000 greater (out of $500,000,000,000) because the person took full advantage of his tax benefits.


I'm focusing on how liberals behave in comparison to their own moral beliefs regarding the payment of taxes by the wealthy. The way liberals talk about taxes on the wealthy, they certainly seem to think it is about morality.
Liberal argue that the system is immoral, not the rich individual's behavior.

The whole argument that one voluntary extra payment would be stupid is a non sequitur that is used to rationalize behavior so the person doesn't feel bad. The government can spend any increase in tax revenues, even if some people don't pay the increase. Thus, an individual's contribution is independent of others' contributions, and said individual can be assured with 100% certainty, that their contribution, no matter how small, will be used. Every little bit counts, so go ahead and pay that little bit extra.

To help you recognize that the argument is a rationalization, here's the same argument on a different topic: "My individual carbon footprint is a tiny fraction of the world's, so there is no point in trying to reduce it."

There is also the issue that a political leader such as the Clinton's putting their money where their mouth is may encourage other wealthy liberal politicians to follow suit.
This is a totally bogus argument. You're essentially arguing that liberals should allow the right-wing rich to 'free ride' on the good will of the left. I can already hear the arguments of the right: "Well, the left has paid down the yearly deficit to half of what it was before; I guess we don't need to raise taxes anymore"

Furthermore, as I wrote before, most people who feel guilty about how little they pay in taxes give more to charity. Why would anyone pay an extra $100,000 to the federal government, where most of the money will pay for programs they don't particularly care about rather than pay that amount to a favored charity?

Furthermore, I feel that the right is playing games when they make your argument, because it changes the focus from the advocated change in the tax law, which would raise tens or hundreds of billions of dollars every year, and instead debates the morality of the advocate. In effect, rather than engaging in a debate about the morality of the existing tax law, the right is engaging in an ad hominem attack against those who advocate a change in the law.

To put this another way: Let's suppose your argument is true, and advocates for higher taxes for the rich are hypocrites because they don't voluntarily pay the higher taxes they advocates. What does THAT have to do with whether the advocated law is good or not? Why are you side-tracking the debate?

Are the Clinton's planning on reducing their charitable contributions if tax raises on the wealthy are enacted? If no, then their charitable contributions don't justify their failure to pay the taxes they believe they should owe. If yes, then I would question why it would be beneficial to increase taxes when that will hurt charitable contributions.

Also, I presume that since that organizations such as the American Red Cross get large amounts of donations, I shouldn't bother increasing my donation by a few bucks because it won't make a difference.
Guilty liberals will probably get stuck paying both higher taxes (once new laws go into effect) AND the higher amount of charity, since they would feel guilty cutting back on charities (even if they really want to). In other words, once a certain level of charitable given is established, it's difficult to give less in the future. I say this from personal experience.

Your second point is bogus: The amount by which ADVOCATES of higher taxes reduce their charitable giving in response to new tax laws is irrelevant. Remember, the purpose of the advocated tax law is to increase taxes on ALL wealthy people, not just liberals with guilty consciences who are advocating for the new law.
 
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Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
I think there's a clear distinction between - on the one hand - the morality of Republicans in creating and maintaining a system that allows the wealthy to pay even lower tax rates than the middle class, and - on the other hand - the morality of the wealthy who merely minimize their taxes under the system Republicans fight so hard to maintain.

If you believe a system of laws is immoral, but you choose to take advantage of those laws for personal gain, you are immoral.

In fact, this gets to the heart of the situation with the Clintons: They are advocating for a fairer tax system, even though under that system they would be forced to pay more. It's their advocacy that's moral; their payment of taxes under whatever system exists is amoral. On the other hand, a wealthy person who fights to maintain or even increase his tax advantage is being unreasonably greedy - immoral; but, again, his adherence to whatever tax system is in place is amoral.

In fact, this gets to the heart of my other hypothetical: I am advocating for a fairer parking system, even though under that system, I get to use the parking spots less. It's my advocacy that's moral; my adherence to whatever parking rules exists is amoral (except to the extent I am adhering to laws I believe are immoral). On the other hand, a person who fights to shape parking rules to his advantage is being unreasonably greedy - immoral; but again, his adherence to whatever parking rules are in place is amoral.

But I think these ARE moral issues. Those who store their garbage in locations visible from the street are making the community look ugly, affecting everyone nearby. This is similar to playing loud music in public, which any sensitive person knows upsets those nearby. Anyone advocating laws on these behaviors is in fact making a point about being a good citizen, a considerate neighbor. So, yes, if they then store their garbage cans publicly or play loud music, they are both bad neighbors AND hypocrites. The same goes for your 2-hour parking example.

But I think taxes IS a moral issue. Those who don't pay their fair share are making the community worse because there isn't enough money for national security, national parks, roads, law enforcement, protecting the environment, etc..., affecting everyone in the country.

Come on, you really think people have a moral obligation to appease the aesthetic requests of their neighbors (substitute laws on lawns, paint colors, window coverings, if you need) even if they disagree with those aesthetic decisions, but that there is no moral obligation not to take advantage of optional tax deductions that allow you to pay less than your fair share?

Similarly, if I can use a parking space for legitimate business purposes, I have a moral obligation to share that parking space even if the law doesn't require me to, but adhering to a immoral tax laws is perfectly acceptable?

And for driving exactly 55 miles an hour in the left-hand land, with 20 cars piled up behind you.

Wow, so it is immoral for me to NOT break a law when other people want to, but when it comes to taxes, it's perfectly moral to hide behind an immoral law?

Compare this with a person taking full advantage of the tax code: Who around that person is directly affected by their behavior? Who sees an ugly community? Who is irritated? Who cannot find parking? Who is held up in traffic for no good reason?

Every single member of their community that pays an unfair share of taxes because the other person took advantage of the tax code.

All you can argue is that the year's deficit was $20,000 greater (out of $500,000,000,000) because the person took full advantage of his tax benefits.

Or that the government had to make budget cuts because they didn't want to increase the year's deficit by another $20,000 so they spent $20,000 less on government services that would have benefited people.

This is a totally bogus argument. You're essentially arguing that liberals should allow the right-wing rich to 'free ride' on the good will of the left.

So let me get this straight, voluntarily paying extra taxes is simultaneously stupid because an individual's contribution is too small to make an efficient difference and stupid because it will allow right-wing rich to free ride off the benefits of the increased tax revenues. But aren't the right-wing and left-wing rich already free-riding off the middle class? If liberals start paying their fair share, that would be an improvement, because there would be fewer free-riders.

Is it also a bogus argument for environmental policy? Should I not try to conserve water/electricity/gas, etc.. because it would allow climate deniers to free ride off my good will? Should the U.S. not enact clean air laws because it would allow China to free ride on the good will of the U.S.?

I can already hear the arguments of the right: "Well, the left has paid down the yearly deficit to half of what it was before; I guess we don't need to raise taxes anymore"

Or maybe practicing what they preach would help liberals win more elections so they could enact the tax reforms they desire.


Why would anyone pay an extra $100,000 to the federal government, where most of the money will pay for programs they don't particularly care about rather than pay that amount to a favored charity?

Because they think it is immoral that the tax law places an unfair burden on less-wealthy tax payers and have integrity.


Furthermore, I feel that the right is playing games when they make your argument, because it changes the focus from the advocated change in the tax law, which would raise tens or hundreds of billions of dollars every year, and instead debates the morality of the advocate. In effect, rather than engaging in a debate about the morality of the existing tax law, the right is engaging in an ad hominem attack against those who advocate a change in the law.

That's fair. Whether the Clinton's are correct in believing the wealthy don't pay a fair share is a separate issue from whether the Clinton's failure to pay that fair share displays their lack of integrity.

Your second point is bogus: The amount by which ADVOCATES of higher taxes reduce their charitable giving in response to new tax laws is irrelevant. Remember, the purpose of the advocated tax law is to increase taxes on ALL wealthy people, not just liberals with guilty consciences who are advocating for the new law.

Whether a tax increase will result in a reduction in charitable givings is a relevant policy question. The people that don't want to pay more in taxes are more likely to reduce their charitable givings than those that claim they should pay more in taxes. Thus, whether the advocates would reduce charitable givings is certainly a relevant policy consideration.
 
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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
How is it any different than

Someone advocating for anti-sodomy laws while engaging in gay sex? After all you would be stupid not to engage in every form of legal sexual pleasure.

Someone advocating for ending slavery while owning slaves themselves? After all you would be stupid not to avail yourself to free labor.

Pretty sure in both cases such people would be called massive hypocrites.

That's not at all similar to the tax situation. You're missing a major portion of the scenario. Since you seem to be infatuated with worrying about gay sex more than most posters, we'll continue that line of reasoning. It would be more like "if you engage in sodomy, your taxes are reduced by 50%" In other words, the government is rewarding a particular behavior. They're saying, "hey, as long as you're rewarding this behavior, we're going to do it. We don't think you should be awarding it though."