We Study Fascism, and We're Leaving the U.S.

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,287
136
Still holding onto that myth of American exceptionalism? 2020 should have shattered that, when Biden won with the narrowest of wins and Trump drastically increased his vote share. This is just who we are.

Trump's approval rating is slowing improving while Dems aren stuck in the 20s. Go ahead and "fight" that lol. We've all taken the L here, some just don't see it yet.
Remember everyone, this is the guy who predicted that Democrats would lose the senate race in somewhere like Hawaii, a race they ended up winning by FORTY FIVE POINTS.

Without fail, every single prediction this guy makes is for the Democrats to lose. Every time. He is, again, the electoral Peter Schiff.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
15,964
11,108
136
Still holding onto that myth of American exceptionalism? 2020 should have shattered that, when Biden won with the narrowest of wins and Trump drastically increased his vote share. This is just who we are.

Trump's approval rating is slowing improving while Dems aren stuck in the 20s. Go ahead and "fight" that lol. We've all taken the L here, some just don't see it yet.

They're fighting over the same type of reich voters who prefer the third/ fourth reich instead.

Only if they focused on the 50% voters that don't want to be part of the reich.
 

gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,439
2,397
136
Remember everyone, this is the guy who predicted that Democrats would lose the senate race in somewhere like Hawaii, a race they ended up winning by FORTY FIVE POINTS.

Without fail, every single prediction this guy makes is for the Democrats to lose. Every time. He is, again, the electoral Peter Schiff.
And this is the guy that predicted Trump would go to jail.

LOL
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,287
136
And this is the guy that predicted Trump would go to jail.

LOL
I said he would go to prison if he didn't become president again, and he would have.

Regardless, anyone who makes predictions will be wrong sometimes, if they weren't then they aren't meaningful predictions. Your issue is you always predict the exact same thing, regardless of circumstances. It didn't take a genius to know that Democrats weren't going to lose the Senate race in Hawaii, it just took a functioning brain. You're so obsessed with predicting doom though that it's overwhelmed your capacity for rational thought.

At least Peter Schiff is just talking his book to fleece the rubes, you seem to actually believe it.
 
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gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,439
2,397
136
They're fighting over the same type of reich voters who prefer the third/ fourth reich instead.

Only if they focused on the 50% voters that don't want to be part of the reich.
I mean, who cares?

Even if a Dem narrowly wins in 2028, and even if Vance certifies (he won't), we'll be right back here in 2032. You think we're going back to the McCains and Romneys of old?

Hell, Trump could run again in 2028 and probably be the favorite over the Dem candidate. That's how unpopular they've become. That doesn't help matters that the opposition party is BOTH unpopular AND incompetent.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,721
10,023
136
Trump, project 2025, the conservative mindjack, these are all set-backs but they are not defeats. Not ever. Not in America.
Our very institutions are being dismantled throughout the nation.
They take DECADES to rebuild!

That's even if we have a free and fair election again. Let alone win it.... with enough seats to make a difference.
This shit is heavily stacked in favor of the destroyer of our Democracy. Stacked towards us becoming fascism.

And who says they'll accept the election results?
They did not last time. The only loss MAGA is going to accept is blood loss.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
15,964
11,108
136
Our very institutions are being dismantled throughout the nation.
They take DECADES to rebuild!

That's even if we have a free and fair election again. Let alone win it.... with enough seats to make a difference.
This shit is heavily stacked in favor of the destroyer of our Democracy. Stacked towards us becoming fascism.

And who says they'll accept the election results?
They did not last time. The only loss MAGA is going to accept is blood loss.

You're getting it.

The warnings were out there, but no one wanted to believe them. It's like a state of shock.

People don't realize it's really happening.. to them..
 

gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,439
2,397
136
Its wild to see the defeatism.

I mean, in a way I get it, but even today's America is more liberal than the America of the 60's and 70's where you could get drafted to go die for a mistake, or hell pre-integration where there was literally a black and white America, or Jim Crow, or straight up fucking slavery.

America is and will always be a country of dualities. Yes we have our regressive elements, but look where we started and look how far we've come, and at every step of the way there was some radical progressive saying "fuck this shit, I'm not ok with this, let's make things better" dragging this country forward kicking and screaming.

Trump, project 2025, the conservative mindjack, these are all set-backs but they are not defeats. Not ever. Not in America.

Oh man, not you too.

Thought you saw thru the thin veneer.

This "not in America, not here" stuff is cringey as hell when it already IS HERE, and is already HAPPENING.

The frog is boiled and dead, the last few neurons are firing off giving it the impression of some last minute normalcy.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,726
11,345
136
Our very institutions are being dismantled throughout the nation.
They take DECADES to rebuild!

That's even if we have a free and fair election again. Let alone win it.... with enough seats to make a difference.
This shit is heavily stacked in favor of the destroyer of our Democracy. Stacked towards us becoming fascism.

And who says they'll accept the election results?
They did not last time. The only loss MAGA is going to accept is blood loss.

To be fair, it's been just under 4 months and we've seen a rapid spiral out of control on how many different levels?

1. We're sending people to concentration camps with no due process
2. Ignored a 9-0 SCOTUS decision
3. Working on eliminating birthright citizenship (decision pending, but we all know that really doesn't matter)
4. Suspending habeas corpus
5. Impounding congressionally approved funding wherever they want
6. Implementing tariffs without congress
7. POTUS can do anything he damn well pleases
8. $400M+ bribe from Qatar

That's a pretty astounding list of things (I'm sure I've missed some, it's hard to keep track of all of them) that have all been taken for granted as norms. Putting that toothpaste back in the tube is ... unlikely.

To add, Trump is not the cause of all of this. He's simply a vessel or mechanism being used by those around him. Even if he goes away (for whatever reason), I don't think it stops any of the above. They've created their beachheads, and will dig in to those while someone else (probably less of a cult leader, but more intelligent) replaces him and builds on it.

On the bright side, almost all of the court decisions have gone against the above. But the counter to that point is that those decisions mean nothing as they are simply ignoring it and continuing on with what they were doing under whatever bullshit justification they can come up with. I'm hard pressed to think of any other "wins" ...
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,287
136
To be fair, it's been just under 4 months and we've seen a rapid spiral out of control on how many different levels?

1. We're sending people to concentration camps with no due process
2. Ignored a 9-0 SCOTUS decision
3. Working on eliminating birthright citizenship (decision pending, but we all know that really doesn't matter)
4. Suspending habeas corpus
5. Impounding congressionally approved funding wherever they want
6. Implementing tariffs without congress
7. POTUS can do anything he damn well pleases
8. $400M+ bribe from Qatar

That's a pretty astounding list of things (I'm sure I've missed some, it's hard to keep track of all of them) that have all been taken for granted as norms. Putting that toothpaste back in the tube is ... unlikely.

To add, Trump is not the cause of all of this. He's simply a vessel or mechanism being used by those around him. Even if he goes away (for whatever reason), I don't think it stops any of the above. They've created their beachheads, and will dig in to those while someone else (probably less of a cult leader, but more intelligent) replaces him and builds on it.

On the bright side, almost all of the court decisions have gone against the above. But the counter to that point is that those decisions mean nothing as they are simply ignoring it and continuing on with what they were doing under whatever bullshit justification they can come up with. I'm hard pressed to think of any other "wins" ...
I definitely agree that the old constitutional order is dead after this. The US has operated for a long time in a manner where the president could basically seize power, they just didn’t. Now one is trying it.

Not sure where this ends up but there isn’t a way to pretend this didn’t happen.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,318
9,689
136
Our very institutions are being dismantled throughout the nation.
They take DECADES to rebuild!

That's even if we have a free and fair election again. Let alone win it.... with enough seats to make a difference.
This shit is heavily stacked in favor of the destroyer of our Democracy. Stacked towards us becoming fascism.

And who says they'll accept the election results?
They did not last time. The only loss MAGA is going to accept is blood loss.

Oh man, not you too.

Thought you saw thru the thin veneer.

This "not in America, not here" stuff is cringey as hell when it already IS HERE, and is already HAPPENING.

The frog is boiled and dead, the last few neurons are firing off giving it the impression of some last minute normalcy.

- There is a difference between "Shits bad" and "Shits over".

Get a gun, learn how to use it.

Know your rights, learn how to enforce them.

I've done plenty of traveling in my life. There is a reason America has been seen by so much of the world as the city on the hill. Its not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than almost anywhere else, even in it's current state.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
136
Its wild to see the defeatism.

I mean, in a way I get it, but even today's America is more liberal than the America of the 60's and 70's where you could get drafted to go die for a mistake, or hell pre-integration where there was literally a black and white America, or Jim Crow, or straight up fucking slavery.

America is and will always be a country of dualities. Yes we have our regressive elements, but look where we started and look how far we've come, and at every step of the way there was some radical progressive saying "fuck this shit, I'm not ok with this, let's make things better" dragging this country forward kicking and screaming.

Trump, project 2025, the conservative mindjack, these are all set-backs but they are not defeats. Not ever. Not in America.
You're talking culture. America has also become the same kind of oligarchy it was 100 years ago and we're racing fast towards the way the nation was in the late 1800s with a two class society and industry dominated by monopolies. We may be more progressive on race and sexual orientation than we were 65 years ago but we certainly aren't on taxes.
 
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SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
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- There is a difference between "Shits bad" and "Shits over".

Get a gun, learn how to use it.

Know your rights, learn how to enforce them.

I've done plenty of traveling in my life. There is a reason America has been seen by so much of the world as the city on the hill. Its not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than almost anywhere else, even in it's current state.
There is no way in hell it's better than almost anywhere else in its current state. You think people who live in democracies run by responsible adults in places like Denmark, New Zealand, Germany, Japan, Australia, etc would have the slightest interest coming to live in this fascist shithole? I mean what country do you think this is to still say we're the city on the hill? You get your phone searched entering the country, you get kidnapped for protesting genocide, man none of this shit is normal and we are not a free nation.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,191
4,572
136
For all the Nazi comparisons, neither our society nor our government is anywhere near as broken as 30s and 40s Germany. There are many paths for us to get off our current path without a war or violent revolution or whatever the doomers think is inevitable. The government is historically unpopular and the opposition is only more unpopular because their leadership is old and useless, which has a way of fixing itself.
 
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SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
136
That doesn't help matters that the opposition party is BOTH unpopular AND incompetent.
They're unpopular but they're not incompetent. What they're showing you is they'd rather be wildly unpopular and lose than move left to meet their base: you know, the people showing up en masse for Bernie and AOC on their fighting oligarchy tour. The Democrats are not fucking up; they're asserting neoliberal control over the party no matter the cost.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,949
7,661
136
For all the Nazi comparisons, neither our society nor our government is anywhere near as broken as 30s and 40s Germany. There are many paths for us to get off our current path without a war or violent revolution or whatever the doomers think is inevitable. The government is historically unpopular and the opposition is only more unpopular because their leadership is old and useless, which has a way of fixing itself.
We're not Nazi Germany sending Jews to the oven yet, but this nation is kidnapping people and imprisoning them for what should be protected speech. This nation is rounding up an out group and sending them to concentration camps on clearly bogus pretense. I mean Fat Hitler is going on TV and saying the M-S-1-3 photoshopped onto Kilmar Abrego Garcia's hand was actually a tattoo. Fat Hitler is completely ignoring the courts, even the Supreme Court. We are well on our way to becoming Nazi Germany.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,287
136
For all the Nazi comparisons, neither our society nor our government is anywhere near as broken as 30s and 40s Germany. There are many paths for us to get off our current path without a war or violent revolution or whatever the doomers think is inevitable. The government is historically unpopular and the opposition is only more unpopular because their leadership is old and useless, which has a way of fixing itself.
The Nazis were never particularly popular either - the last election before Hitler seized power got them about 33% of the vote and in fact was unable to form a majority government. They were the largest party in Germany at the time but that wasn't THAT large. This is one of the reasons the whole 'Hitler made Germany into a dictatorship legally' saying annoys me. No, he didn't. His party was losing support and unable to form a government so he illegally suppressed the opposition and took over anyway.

Popularity definitely helps in taking over but it is not required.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,191
4,572
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We're not Nazi Germany sending Jews to the oven yet, but this nation is kidnapping people and imprisoning them for what should be protected speech. This nation is rounding up an out group and sending them to concentration camps on clearly bogus pretense. I mean Fat Hitler is going on TV and saying the M-S-1-3 photoshopped onto Kilmar Abrego Garcia's hand was actually a tattoo. Fat Hitler is completely ignoring the courts, even the Supreme Court. We are well on our way to becoming Nazi Germany.
Yeah I know our government is a POS right now. Just saying that Fat Hitler is a seriously shitty and cheap knockoff of the real thing. The real thing confiscated firearms, long range capable radios, had boys attacking the weakest in state sponsored schools to make them good loyal members of the master race, commanded respect with his speeches … our version is just a joke in comparison. Oh and he’s 30 years older. I think there are off ramps for this country.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,288
32,787
136
Chatgpt concludes we not currently a fascist state but are moving towards it. Bases it's opinion based on 11 characterizes of fascism.

To give a grounded and nuanced answer, let's go through each of the 11 core characteristics of fascism and assess how clearly they apply to the U.S. today, in 2025. We’ll use a simple rating scale for each:


  • Yes – Clearly applies in significant ways today.
  • ⚠️ Partially – Elements are present, but not dominant or systematic.
  • No – Does not meaningfully apply.



1. Authoritarian Leadership – ⚠️ Partially


  • The U.S. presidency has grown more powerful over time, and some recent political figures have expressed authoritarian impulses (e.g., undermining checks and balances or attacking institutions).
  • However, the U.S. still has functioning checks on executive power, including courts and Congress.



2. Ultranationalism – ⚠️ Partially


  • Ultranationalist rhetoric appears in some political factions, especially around immigration, race, and "America First" ideology.
  • Not official policy, and still counterbalanced by multicultural and inclusive narratives.



3. Suppression of Opposition – ⚠️ Partially


  • There’s increasing political hostility, and some politicians attempt to delegitimize opponents (e.g., calling the press or opposition parties enemies).
  • But opposition parties, activists, and independent media remain legally protected and active.



4. Disdain for Human Rights – ⚠️ Partially


  • Issues like immigration detention, systemic racism in policing, and surveillance practices raise concern.
  • However, the U.S. still maintains a legal system that supports human rights, even if imperfectly.



5. Control of Mass Media – ❌ No


  • The press is not state-controlled, and a wide range of political perspectives are freely published and broadcast.
  • Political attacks on media credibility are common, but media independence remains intact.



6. Obsession with National Security – ✅ Yes


  • National security continues to be a dominant justification for expanded surveillance, policing, and immigration policies.
  • Often used politically to instill fear or justify erosion of rights.



7. Corporate Power Protected – ✅ Yes


  • Close alignment between government and corporations, with heavy lobbying influence and regulatory capture in some sectors.
  • Tax and policy decisions often disproportionately favor big business.



8. Labor Power Suppressed – ⚠️ Partially


  • Labor unions exist but are weakened compared to other democracies.
  • Anti-union policies and right-to-work laws exist in many states, though there's a recent resurgence of labor activism.



9. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – ⚠️ Partially


  • Some anti-science, anti-expert, and anti-education rhetoric from political figures and movements.
  • However, universities and intellectual life are still vibrant and largely respected.



10. Rampant Sexism and Racism – ⚠️ Partially


  • Structural racism and sexism persist; there’s ongoing backlash to progressive social movements.
  • But these issues are openly debated, and civil rights protections still stand.



11. Manipulation of Elections – ⚠️ Partially


  • Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and election denialism are major concerns.
  • However, elections continue to be held regularly, and no single party has total control.



✅ Final Tally:​


  • Yes (Clearly Applies): 2
  • Partially Applies: 8
  • Does Not Apply: 1



Summary:


Out of 11 characteristics of fascism:


  • 2 are fully present,
  • 8 are partially present, and
  • only 1 does not currently apply.

This doesn’t mean the U.S. is a fascist state, but it does indicate vulnerability to authoritarian and illiberal trends. A functioning democracy can still contain fascist-adjacent forces without being fascist itself. If you'd like, we can explore how these traits compare with other countries or historical cases.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,288
32,787
136
Here's where I disagree with Chatboy

1. While checks and balances are on the books Congress and the courts are currently powerless to force Trump to follow the law. Republicans are too chickenshit and Trump owns the DOJ
2. Despite "no official policy it is effectively happening.
3. Activists are not protected. Trump is having them snatched off the street.
4. We all know peoples rights are being violated.
5. Musk buys twitter and Trump has gotten media outlets to bend the knee to him
9. We all knoiw TRump and the right have distain for science.
10. Trump is a rapist and sexual abuser. He hires people that beat their wives and bang underage girls.
11. Trump and GOP are in an ongoing campaign to commit election fraud. Just recently they tried to prevent a judge to take their seat after winning.
 

Roger Wilco

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2017
4,773
7,157
136
Yeah I know our government is a POS right now. Just saying that Fat Hitler is a seriously shitty and cheap knockoff of the real thing. The real thing confiscated firearms, long range capable radios, had boys attacking the weakest in state sponsored schools to make them good loyal members of the master race, commanded respect with his speeches … our version is just a joke in comparison. Oh and he’s 30 years older. I think there are off ramps for this country.

Also, Jews were like 1% of the population in Nazi Germany. And everyone else was a single white ethnicity.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,497
16,979
136
Chatgpt concludes we not currently a fascist state but are moving towards it. Bases it's opinion based on 11 characterizes of fascism.

To give a grounded and nuanced answer, let's go through each of the 11 core characteristics of fascism and assess how clearly they apply to the U.S. today, in 2025. We’ll use a simple rating scale for each:


  • Yes – Clearly applies in significant ways today.
  • ⚠️ Partially – Elements are present, but not dominant or systematic.
  • No – Does not meaningfully apply.



1. Authoritarian Leadership – ⚠️ Partially


  • The U.S. presidency has grown more powerful over time, and some recent political figures have expressed authoritarian impulses (e.g., undermining checks and balances or attacking institutions).
  • However, the U.S. still has functioning checks on executive power, including courts and Congress.



2. Ultranationalism – ⚠️ Partially


  • Ultranationalist rhetoric appears in some political factions, especially around immigration, race, and "America First" ideology.
  • Not official policy, and still counterbalanced by multicultural and inclusive narratives.



3. Suppression of Opposition – ⚠️ Partially


  • There’s increasing political hostility, and some politicians attempt to delegitimize opponents (e.g., calling the press or opposition parties enemies).
  • But opposition parties, activists, and independent media remain legally protected and active.



4. Disdain for Human Rights – ⚠️ Partially


  • Issues like immigration detention, systemic racism in policing, and surveillance practices raise concern.
  • However, the U.S. still maintains a legal system that supports human rights, even if imperfectly.



5. Control of Mass Media – ❌ No


  • The press is not state-controlled, and a wide range of political perspectives are freely published and broadcast.
  • Political attacks on media credibility are common, but media independence remains intact.



6. Obsession with National Security – ✅ Yes


  • National security continues to be a dominant justification for expanded surveillance, policing, and immigration policies.
  • Often used politically to instill fear or justify erosion of rights.



7. Corporate Power Protected – ✅ Yes


  • Close alignment between government and corporations, with heavy lobbying influence and regulatory capture in some sectors.
  • Tax and policy decisions often disproportionately favor big business.



8. Labor Power Suppressed – ⚠️ Partially


  • Labor unions exist but are weakened compared to other democracies.
  • Anti-union policies and right-to-work laws exist in many states, though there's a recent resurgence of labor activism.



9. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts – ⚠️ Partially


  • Some anti-science, anti-expert, and anti-education rhetoric from political figures and movements.
  • However, universities and intellectual life are still vibrant and largely respected.



10. Rampant Sexism and Racism – ⚠️ Partially


  • Structural racism and sexism persist; there’s ongoing backlash to progressive social movements.
  • But these issues are openly debated, and civil rights protections still stand.



11. Manipulation of Elections – ⚠️ Partially


  • Gerrymandering, voter suppression, and election denialism are major concerns.
  • However, elections continue to be held regularly, and no single party has total control.



✅ Final Tally:​


  • Yes (Clearly Applies): 2
  • Partially Applies: 8
  • Does Not Apply: 1



Summary:


Out of 11 characteristics of fascism:


  • 2 are fully present,
  • 8 are partially present, and
  • only 1 does not currently apply.

This doesn’t mean the U.S. is a fascist state, but it does indicate vulnerability to authoritarian and illiberal trends. A functioning democracy can still contain fascist-adjacent forces without being fascist itself. If you'd like, we can explore how these traits compare with other countries or historical cases.

I call bs on a couple of those. I’ll expand on it later though.