We Study Fascism, and We're Leaving the U.S.

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,023
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136
Experts explain where we are heading, what can be done to counteract it.

The decision by these three Yale professors to move to Canada is both a warning and a call to action. By Marci Shore, Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley

~7 minute video and written article.

This link will get anyone through The New York Times' paywall for 14 days, i.e. until May 28, 2025:


There are reader comments accessible with a button click at the end of the written article. Here is one exceptional comment:


This honestly brought me to tears. As a child who lived in Communist Eastern Europe, and as someone who has always loved history, they just so eloquently said everything I’ve been trying to tell anyone who would listen for the last few years. All the signs are there and so glaring! Yet I’ve been so distressed because so few listen, dismiss concerns so easily because of a false sense of safety. Many are just trying to ride out the next four years but that could be a false hope. The last line hit me in the gut. Everyone needs to watch this video. Thank you for this brave piece of journalism!

To which co-author Marci Shore replied:

@Repatriated Expat Thank you so much! I’ve spent much of my adult life in East and Central Europe; I was formed as a historian in the 1990s, going into the Communist Party archives as they were just beginning to open. So many of the people who intellectually mentored me were former political prisoners. Everything I understand about the present moment is deeply inflected by what I’ve learned as a historian of that part of the world. If I panicked much sooner than most of my American friends and colleagues in 2015, it’s not because I was any smarter, but because I’d been watching what was happening in Russia and Ukraine, and because the history of East and Central Europe had taught me something that Czesław Miłosz famously expressed with the phrase “the habit of civilization is fragile.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/14/opinion/yale-canada-fascism.html#permid=142130658
Tidbit: I personally met Czeslaw Milosz one odd day, around 1980 - Muse

By Marci Shore, Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley
Video by Francesca Trianni and James Robinson

Professors Shore, Snyder and Stanley have studied and written extensively on authoritarianism. Ms. Trianni is a producer for Opinion Video. Mr. Robinson is a producer and editor for Opinion Video.
  • May 14, 2025
Legal residents of the United States sent to foreign prisons without due process. Students detained after voicing their opinions. Federal judges threatened with impeachment for ruling against the administration’s priorities.

In the Opinion video above, Marci Shore, Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley, all professors at Yale and experts in authoritarianism, explain why America is especially vulnerable to a democratic backsliding — and why they are leaving the United States to take up positions at the University of Toronto.
Professor Stanley is leaving the United States as an act of protest against the Trump administration’s attacks on civil liberties. “I want Americans to realize that this is a democratic emergency,” he said.

Professor Shore, who has spent two decades writing about the history of authoritarianism in Central and Eastern Europe, is leaving because of what she sees as the sharp regression of American democracy. “We’re like people on the Titanic saying our ship can’t sink,” she said. “And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”

Professor Snyder’s reasons are more complicated. Primarily, he’s leaving to support his wife, Professor Shore, and their children, and to teach at a large public university in Toronto, a place he says can host conversations about freedom. At the same time, he shares the concerns expressed by his colleagues and worries that those kinds of conversations will become ever harder to have in the United States.

“I did not leave Yale because of Donald Trump or because of Columbia or because of threats to Yale — but that would be a reasonable thing to do, and that is a decision that people will make,” he wrote in a Yale Daily News article explaining his decision to leave.

Their motives differ but their analysis is the same: ignoring or downplaying attacks on the rule of law, the courts and universities spells trouble for our democracy.
 
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gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
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Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Meanwhile, people who have actually been arrested and persecuted continue to stand up and show courage in the face of adversity.

View attachment 123796

Who cares, it's not changing anything.

Best comment from that NYT. article:

"I came to a difficult realization during the previous Trump administration. We have sold ourselves on the myth that the population of the United States is dedicated to our democratic traditions and the rule of law. It isn't, and likely never was. I fear we are about to learn why we should have been."

The courts aren't coming to save us. The military and certainly LE aren't coming save us. Congress isn't coming to save us. Even we aren't coming to save ourselves. So where does that leave us? Total defeat.

I mean when Trump is polling like 20 points higher than Dems...LOL cmon. This is just who we are. Who we've always been?
 
Dec 10, 2005
27,551
11,912
136
Who cares, it's not changing anything.

Best comment from that NYT. article:

"I came to a difficult realization during the previous Trump administration. We have sold ourselves on the myth that the population of the United States is dedicated to our democratic traditions and the rule of law. It isn't, and likely never was. I fear we are about to learn why we should have been."

The courts aren't coming to save us. The military and certainly LE aren't coming save us. Congress isn't coming to save us. Even we aren't coming to save ourselves. So where does that leave us? Total defeat.

I mean when Trump is polling like 20 points higher than Dems...LOL cmon. This is just who we are. Who we've always been?
Typical gothuevos: just giving up and acting like nothing can ever change.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,023
9,683
136
Typical gothuevos: just giving up and acting like nothing can ever change.
@gothuevos has their better moments, I've noticed. I have seen a lot of defeatism here from many. I'm not saying they are wrong or their predictions won't play out as they describe. But I don't foresee the USA becoming like Russia. Lots and lots of reasons, a big one being the diversity. That diversity is of populace and the economy. Russia's got oil and not much else, and is populated by various kinds of Slavics, you might call them Russians. The US economy, which is certainly in jeopardy with Trump in the White House, is light years ahead of Russia's.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
30,260
44,528
136
Who cares, it's not changing anything.

Best comment from that NYT. article:

"I came to a difficult realization during the previous Trump administration. We have sold ourselves on the myth that the population of the United States is dedicated to our democratic traditions and the rule of law. It isn't, and likely never was. I fear we are about to learn why we should have been."

The courts aren't coming to save us. The military and certainly LE aren't coming save us. Congress isn't coming to save us. Even we aren't coming to save ourselves. So where does that leave us? Total defeat.

I mean when Trump is polling like 20 points higher than Dems...LOL cmon. This is just who we are. Who we've always been?

Can you point to another coup attempt in the post WWII era? How about a president of any party that plays politics with facemasks, over his makeup no less, which helps a pandemic kill more Americans than all of our wars combined? GenX here, but maybe I missed another CiC who ignored a 9-0 SCOTUS decision? C'mon, show me that's just who we are, show me those true colors.

What we are is a cancer victim. It metastasized in 2000. After decades of robust health and easy living, we now have a serious tumor problem. No, America is more than it's current life threatening affliction, thankfully.

Would you give up if you had cancer?
 
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gothuevos

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2010
3,146
2,300
136
No, America is more than it's current life threatening affliction, thankfully.

Would you give up if you had cancer?

Is it, though? We are finding out this is who we were, all along.

If I had stage 4 pancreatic cancer I would just stop giving a fuck altogether.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,129
6,611
126
Who cares, it's not changing anything.

Best comment from that NYT. article:

"I came to a difficult realization during the previous Trump administration. We have sold ourselves on the myth that the population of the United States is dedicated to our democratic traditions and the rule of law. It isn't, and likely never was. I fear we are about to learn why we should have been."

The courts aren't coming to save us. The military and certainly LE aren't coming save us. Congress isn't coming to save us. Even we aren't coming to save ourselves. So where does that leave us? Total defeat.

I mean when Trump is polling like 20 points higher than Dems...LOL cmon. This is just who we are. Who we've always been?
Negative attitudes go hand in hand with self hate. Negative attitudes are a self fulfilling prophesy. Naturally since self is almost universal the negative attitudes that create a negative reality are guaranteed. That is very bad news and you could call it negative but that's a projection you make because that's the state you are in. What you fail to understand in my opinion is the fact that everything is hopeless is just the way it is because of negativity. Whatever the condition of the world, being that sleeping people are living in a dream, you personally can awaken and seeing the world is hopeless is the key. Why do you have a negative attitude. In it not speaking generally because the world does not conform to how you wish it were? But what if all those wishes are programs you gathered growing up, all lies you were told and believe. I offer a notion you might wish to consider, that if you die to all ego ambitions you will awaken in heaven. This is why many pray for on earth as it is in heaven because it helps to see the prayer is the actual reality.

I know I know I know, that's all bullshit. But bullshit makes roses grow.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,172
10,533
136
Can you point to another coup attempt in the post WWII era? How about a president of any party that plays politics with facemasks, over his makeup no less, which helps a pandemic kill more Americans than all of our wars combined? GenX here, but maybe I missed another CiC who ignored a 9-0 SCOTUS decision? C'mon, show me that's just who we are, show me those true colors.

What we are is a cancer victim. It metastasized in 2000. After decades of robust health and easy living, we now have a serious tumor problem. No, America is more than it's current life threatening affliction, thankfully.

Would you give up if you had cancer?

Depends on what the prognosis is, and what my options are. Extending the metaphor, neither of those look to be too rosy right now.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,290
16,794
136
Who cares, it's not changing anything.

Best comment from that NYT. article:

"I came to a difficult realization during the previous Trump administration. We have sold ourselves on the myth that the population of the United States is dedicated to our democratic traditions and the rule of law. It isn't, and likely never was. I fear we are about to learn why we should have been."

The courts aren't coming to save us. The military and certainly LE aren't coming save us. Congress isn't coming to save us. Even we aren't coming to save ourselves. So where does that leave us? Total defeat.

I mean when Trump is polling like 20 points higher than Dems...LOL cmon. This is just who we are. Who we've always been?
So when are you leaving?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,236
14,235
136
Half of America is ignorant as fuck and will never be in touch with reality, will always be easily manipulable by unscrupulous pols and businessmen. I'm tried of fighting such an impenetrable wall of ignorance.

I'm going to move to New Zealand when I can afford to. Which is probably 2-3 years.

Not everyone can afford to leave at a moment's notice, whether because of money or family connections. Keep that in mind. However, other than these practical realities, I see no reason for any thinking person to stick around here.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,290
16,794
136
Half of America is ignorant as fuck and will never be in touch with reality, will always be easily manipulable by unscrupulous pols and businessmen. I'm tried of fighting such an impenetrable wall of ignorance.

I'm going to move to New Zealand when I can afford to. Which is probably 2-3 years.

Not everyone can afford to leave at a moment's notice, whether because of money or family connections. Keep that in mind. However, other than these practical realities, I see no reason for any thinking person to stick around here.
Do you already have a pretty good chance of them accepting you, you think?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,160
31,006
136
Keane College published a paper on 16 chararacters of fascism in June 2022. IMO - We meet 14-15 of these criteria. The only one missing is corrupt election and the GOP has tried ex denying a NC state judge her seat for weeks



1. Powerful, often exclusionary, populist nationalism centered on cult of a redemptive, “infallible” leader who never admits mistakes.
2. Political power derived from questioning reality, endorsing myth and rage, and promoting lies.
3. Fixation with perceived national decline, humiliation, or victimhood.
4. White Replacement “Theory” used to show that democratic ideals of freedom and equality are a threat. Oppose any initiatives or institutions that are racially, ethnically, or religiously harmonious.
5. Disdain for human rights while seeking purity and cleansing for those they define as part of the nation.
6. Identification of “enemies”/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Imprison and/or murder opposition and minority group leaders.
7. Supremacy of the military and embrace of paramilitarism in an uneasy, but effective collaboration with traditional elites. Fascists arm people and justify and glorify violence as “redemptive”.
8. Rampant sexism.
9. Control of mass media and undermining “truth”.
10. Obsession with national security, crime and punishment, and fostering a sense of the nation under attack.
11. Religion and government are intertwined.
12. Corporate power is protected and labor power is suppressed.
13. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts not aligned with the fascist narrative. Mussolini Hitler Putin
14. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Loyalty to the leader is paramount and often more important than competence.
15. Fraudulent elections and creation of a one-party state.
16. Often seeking to expand territory through armed conflict.
 
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