We see a lot of threads on executive compensation and the relationship between self interest and initiative

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
We see a lot of worship of the market and individualism. But I have argued for years that humans are a social ape that functions with empathy for others. Here is another longish article or video that seems to imply that I may be right and old ways of thinking about the economy are changing at the forefront of economic thinking:

Link.

Opening paragraph:

"[YOCHAI BENKLER]: The big question I ask myself is how we start to think much more methodically about human sharing, about the relationship between human interest and human morality and human society. The main moment at which I think you could see the end of an era was when Alan Greenspan testified before the House committee and said, "My predictions about self-interest were wrong. I relied for 40 years on self-interest to work its way up, and it was wrong." For those of us like me who have been working on the Internet for years, it was very clear you couldn't encounter free software and you couldn't encounter Wikipedia and you couldn't encounter all of the wealth of cultural materials that people create and exchange, and the valuable actual software that people create, without an understanding that something much more complex is happening than the dominant ideology of the last 40 years or so. But you could if you weren't looking there, because we were used in the industrial system to think in these terms."

I found this rather interesting:

"As we're sitting here talking, and GM is teetering on the edge, one of the ways that's interesting to think about it is to see that GM in many of its structural components is the quintessential output of models based on selfish rationality. If we look both at the shop floor structure, at the supply chain structure and at the executive compensation structure, along all three of those dimensions, it's implementing theories of organization that assume shirking unless you get the material incentives just right. At the shop floor level, a lot of process engineering, a lot of monitoring, very precise specification of actions. You basically have to specify the actions, you have to monitor, you have to compensate for successful action and punish for not, and you have to then have the managers have more managers on top of them, until you go all the way up. That's one level in terms of the internal. It's a very monitoring and controlling hierarchy system.

Then starting in the late '80s but really reaching a peak in 1990, we have this invention by Jensen and Murphy of agency theory. The theory there was, everybody's trying to shirk. And the way you solve is somebody above the monitors. Well, who monitors the monitors? Somebody above them. When you get to the very top executives, what do you have to do? You can't monitor them. It straddles all the way down up to a point. The answer is, what you have to do is you have to align the incentives of the person at the top with the company. That way they don't want to shirk, because for every dollar that the company is making, they are making ten cents or however much they're making. The result? Executive compensation packages that emerged in the 1990s. If you look at the U.S. around 1980, its executives are making roughly the same multiple of what an aligned employee is making as European counterparts. Japanese counterparts making somewhat less. This is on the order of 30 to 50 times as much.

Fifteen years later, you see multiples of 200 and 500. Across the board. You get to a point where you look in the mid-2000s, and the CEO of GM is making more than the top 21 executives at Honda put together. But it's theory-driven. You need to align the incentives just right, because otherwise, the person at the top will shirk. Well, the fact of the matter is we didn't get this alignment. In the last five or six years, even Jensen and Murphy themselves in later studies became very cautious about the degree to which they thought that it worked. You had more fraud. The percentage of companies that had questionable tax filings, for example, was correlated to the degree of executive compensation, because you're looking for quick fixes. You are drawing people who are particularly motivated by these high returns, and you're compensating them in ways that allow them to pull out returns very quickly. Essentially you actually didn't get even what you wanted there. You got a mis-alignment of incentives.

And the third is with supplier relations. Again, over the course of the last 20 years there's been a bit of a convergence between the Japanese company's relationship with suppliers and the American company's relationship with suppliers. The Japanese company is becoming a little less tightly bound than they were in keiretsus, and the American firm is becoming more connected with long-term contracts. But again, if you look at the studies of this industry, what you see is that the big three continued to in various ways defect. They would get to a certain point in negotiations, then suddenly they'd demand a five percent reduction. Or suddenly they would take plans for an innovation and give it to a competitor to set up competitive bidding. You had a breakdown of trust.

Japanese companies didn't. The same exact U.S. suppliers working with firms manufacturing in the U.S. produced different levels of technology and different levels of efficiency because of who they were dealing with. At all of these layers you see a company, and in many senses this is true of Detroit more generally, but in GM this is a specific case. There is a theory-driven set of practices that are about monitoring people below, incentivizing people above, and always trying to make sure that you set up the relationships so that you extract everything. Not a big success."

Perhaps the most important concept that occurs to me here is the fact that most of what we believe will one day be known to be wrong, all our cherished beliefs utter nonsense. I believe the deep need to believe in things and to feel you're correct is based on an incorrect centering of the ego. We would be more than happy to be nothing and know we know little if we had never been put down and told such thinking makes you worthless. We all became some ideology to stave off the feeling given to us that we are nothing at all. We don't go anywhere without dragging our certainty blankets with us and sucking our thumbs, no?
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Hmmmmm, Human sharing? I thought it was GREED and Everything for myself. Isn't that they way it works? Now if I only would have invest in citigroup when it was down to .99 cents! damn! Missed the boat! :D

Human Sharing is the need to WANT and want it all! But the key is to turn your wants into preferences. For some reason I don't think Social Apes are in it for self interest.

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Greenspan is wrong; self-interest did win out. That's why we have what happened; he's not looking at it the problem on the correct scale. He needs to go down further to the individual.
 

burr4392

Member
Mar 4, 2004
121
0
71
Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the root of all evil ? and he's the typical product of money."

Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor ? your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions ? and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made ? before it can be looted or mooched ? made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss ? the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery ? that you must offer them values, not wounds ? that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade ? with reason, not force, as their final arbiter ? it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability ? and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality ? the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth ? the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money ? and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another ? their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich ? will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt ? and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the double standard ? the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money ? the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law ? men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims ? then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion ? when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing ? when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors ? when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you ? when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice ? you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood ? money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves ? slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers ? as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money ? and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being ? the self-made man ? the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose ? because it contains all the others ? the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money'. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity ? to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide ? as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns ? or dollars. Take your choice ? there is no other ? and your time is running out."

Francisco d'Anconia, Atlas Shrugged
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Who are those making the largest global impact through sharing their immense wealth? CEOs of companies that earned ridiculous amounts of money. Would the world be better off if Bill Gates made $200,000/year rather than $5 billion/year? I doubt it. He has put that money into a highly efficient private charity. He earned his money and was happy to give it away.

On the other hand, did the CEO of GM earn his money? If his pay was aligned with what the company was making as you suggest, he would have lost the shirt off his back, not been making millions every year. Thus, I don't see such a large, intrinsic flaw in aligning executive compensation with corporate profits, as long as this principle is applied equitably through both good and bad.

Humans need incentive as motivation. That incentive need not always be financial in nature, but it must be something that the person wants or, as an even better incentive, something the person needs. I can't feed my family with the satisfaction I get from picketing congress every day for world peace. If I want to have a real effect on society, society will pay me for it. They will do so either by exchanging something (usually money) for my goods or services, or by sending donations if they deem my career as a picketer truly valuable.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: burr4392
Rearden heard Bertram Scudder, outside the group, say to a girl who made some sound of indignation, "Don't let him disturb you. You know, money is the root of all evil ? and he's the typical product of money."

Rearden did not think that Francisco could have heard it, but he saw Francisco turning to them with a gravely courteous smile.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Aconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor ? your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions ? and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made ? before it can be looted or mooched ? made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss ? the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery ? that you must offer them values, not wounds ? that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade ? with reason, not force, as their final arbiter ? it is the best product that wins, the best performance, then man of best judgment and highest ability ? and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality ? the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants; money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth ? the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve that mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict which you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is the loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money ? and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another ? their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride, or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich ? will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt ? and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the double standard ? the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money ? the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law ? men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims ? then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion ? when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing ? when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors ? when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you ? when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice ? you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it becomes, marked: 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood ? money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves ? slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers ? as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money ? and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being ? the self-made man ? the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose ? because it contains all the others ? the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money'. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity ? to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted, or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide ? as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns ? or dollars. Take your choice ? there is no other ? and your time is running out."

Francisco d'Anconia, Atlas Shrugged

Whoever wrote this was an idiot. The medium of exchange for millions of years has been all the free fleas you can eat. I pick off and eat yours and you pick off and eat mine and the loving feeling you get from being touched is all for free.

And you are doing that here, posting for free just to have contact with me.

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
"Being generous is inborn; being altruistic is a learned perversity. No resemblance---"

Altruism is the self-deception that we are doing something not because we enjoy it but because we want to help others. If we truly want to help others, then we are helping them because we enjoy it. We may not enjoy the actions themselves, but we view them as an acceptable trade-off for the happiness that we get from having helped.

In the end, we help others because it makes us feel good. This is the same reason that people drive fast, buy big TVs, have sex, etc. It is possible to be generous without engaging in altruism, and it involves less self-deception and less ego-stroking.

"If tempted by something that feels "altruistic," examine your motives and root out that self-deception. Then, if you still want to do it, wallow in it!"

ZV
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Whoever wrote this was an idiot. The medium of exchange for millions of years has been all the free fleas you can eat. I pick off and eat yours and you pick off and eat mine and the loving feeling you get from being touched is all for free.

And you are doing that here, posting for free just to have contact with me.

[/quote]

Ayn Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged. I was wondering how long it would take you to devolve to insulting others as is your MO. Just 6 posts - nice job.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
The main moment at which I think you could see the end of an era was when Alan Greenspan testified before the House committee and said, "My predictions about self-interest were wrong. I relied for 40 years on self-interest to work its way up, and it was wrong."

Isn't it ironic that his actions at the Federal Reserve, an institution he used to argue against, was the primary cause of our economic disaster?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Whoever wrote this was an idiot. The medium of exchange for millions of years has been all the free fleas you can eat. I pick off and eat yours and you pick off and eat mine and the loving feeling you get from being touched is all for free.

And you are doing that here, posting for free just to have contact with me.

Ayn Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged. I was wondering how long it would take you to devolve to insulting others as is your MO. Just 6 posts - nice job.[/quote]

Please note that I laid out an alternate view for you to consider and what you focused on was my insults over which you try now to insult me but as you do so you yourself offer nothing. This thread was about a reappraisal of old notions that is going on at the forefront of today's thought and folk drag in their old gods for me to bow down to. Fuck them and their antiquated ideals. Destroy without mercy everything you were taught to believe. See how little you really know for yourself. Have some humility. I will help you you arrogant asshole. ;) If you didn't already feel like an idiot you wouldn't be bothered by me. Yeah yeah I know. All of a sudden you're not.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Moonbeam has better English skills than Nemesis 1, but he's just about as insane.

Are you referring to the two stories I wrote about in the locked Nemesis apology thread?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,674
6,733
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
The main moment at which I think you could see the end of an era was when Alan Greenspan testified before the House committee and said, "My predictions about self-interest were wrong. I relied for 40 years on self-interest to work its way up, and it was wrong."

Isn't it ironic that his actions at the Federal Reserve, an institution he used to argue against, was the primary cause of our economic disaster?

Do you mean like the Constitution is at fault for the Iraq war because it established the office of the Presidency and Bush got the job?

I can make nothing of your vague assertions, but I'm sure you know you know of what you speak, right?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
The main moment at which I think you could see the end of an era was when Alan Greenspan testified before the House committee and said, "My predictions about self-interest were wrong. I relied for 40 years on self-interest to work its way up, and it was wrong."

Isn't it ironic that his actions at the Federal Reserve, an institution he used to argue against, was the primary cause of our economic disaster?

Do you mean like the Constitution is at fault for the Iraq war because it established the office of the Presidency and Bush got the job?

I can make nothing of your vague assertions, but I'm sure you know you know of what you speak, right?

IIRC, the constitution gives Congress the power to declare war, not the president.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,170
14,600
146
http://www.latimes.com/busines...mar29,0,1828008.column

Limiting executive pay could be the only way to save capitalism

When managers are free to rob corporate coffers, it shatters the trust of the investors who provide capital to grow the business.

Kathy M. Kristof, Personal Finance
March 29, 2009

Proposals to limit executive pay are flying fast and furious in the wake of public furor over retention bonuses paid to executives at American International Group Inc. But here in the capital of capitalism, business leaders and compensation consultants maintain that restricting executive pay could cause more harm than good.

The best and brightest business leaders would flee, they contend. Financial results, and ultimately stock prices, would suffer.

Here's a view from the other side: Limiting executive pay -- voluntarily or not -- could be the only way to save capitalism.

As the titans sputter, I'll explain.

Our $9.9-trillion stock market works on the basis of trust. The long-standing deal between investors and executives was this: You give money to a corporation -- without demanding interest or immediate repayment -- and you'll get a tiny piece of that company in return.

Investors were willing to put up their hard-earned cash -- often their retirement savings -- because they had faith that company shares would become increasingly valuable.

Corporate managers, investors believed, would deploy their assets to produce products and services that could be sold at a profit. As the company became more profitable, the value of investor's shares would rise.

That system works when managers are legitimately deploying corporate assets to their best use.

Instead, over the course of the last two decades, company managers have pocketed an increasing amount of profits.

A study by Harvard professor Lucian Bebchuk found, for example, that pay and perks granted to the five most highly compensated officers at U.S. companies nearly doubled over a decade and now eat up an average of 9% of company profits. And that figure doesn't account for the millions of dollars that companies pay in retirement benefits to executives.

At the same time, the gap between what chief executives pay themselves and what they pay their rank-and-file workers has widened. Where CEOs used to earn about 50 times what their average worker took home, now they're taking home about 350 times that person's wages.

Why does this gap matter? Because workers open the doors, answer the phones, manufacture the products and wait on the customers.

Happy workers make for a better customer experience. Workers who are demoralized by unlivable wages -- and can see by company practice that the CEO thinks he's worth 400 of them -- are unlikely to work as hard and produce as much.

Many of the executives with the richest pay and pensions have shipped jobs overseas and ripped pension benefits away from their workers.

They defend these practices, contending that paying people livable wages and taking care of them in retirement is too expensive.

Yet these same executives -- such as the top dogs as Lehman Bros. Holdings Inc. and Countrywide Financial Corp. -- took hundreds of millions in pay and stock, while their companies faltered.

That pay was not a reasonable use of corporate assets, said David O. Friedrichs, a professor of sociology and criminal justice at the University of Scranton in Pennsylvania. It was grand theft.

"We have no trouble understanding that somebody who walks into a bank with a gun is committing a crime," he said. "CEOs who walk into boardrooms, armed with reports from compensation consultants, who have all sorts of conflicts of interest to push pay as high as possible, are committing grand theft against stakeholders."

When managers are free to rob corporate coffers, it shatters the trust of investors.

If investors become convinced that they can't trust executives to forgo their selfish interests and use investor capital to grow the business, they will start making demands.

Instead of trusting executives to share the profits when we give them our capital, for example, investors will start demanding contractual interest.

In other words, we'll stop investing in stocks and, instead, put our money in corporate bonds, where the company must pay a set rate of return. The shift is already being seen in industry statistics.

Over the last two weeks, investors pulled $22.3 billion out of equity funds while investing $6.5 billion more in bond funds, according to the Investment Company Institute, a trade group for the mutual fund industry.

To be sure, there is still plenty of money invested in stocks. Part of the reason is that some companies still do things right. Consider, for example, Costco Wholesale Corp., the Issaquah, Wash.-based retailer that operates warehouse stores.

Its CEO, James D. Sinegal, earns a salary of $350,000, while his warehouse employees earn roughly $17 an hour -- about $34,000 for a 2,000-hour year. Sinegal can get a bonus of as much as $200,000, but typically recommends less -- something akin to the bonuses paid to warehouse employees, according to the company's proxy statement.

Costco's board says it thinks Sinegal is underpaid compared with his peers, but he has asked to stay that way. He told the board that higher pay "wouldn't change his motivation." Meanwhile, the company brags that it retains workers, not only in the executive suites but also in the warehouses, for decades.

If more companies paid their top dogs like Costco pays Sinegal, legislative limits on pay wouldn't be necessary. As things stand, everyone from the investor on the street to the Council of Institutional Investors is calling for pay curbs and "clawbacks," which are aimed at recovering past bonuses when it appears that they were based on bogus earnings.

Corporate titans don't like arbitrary limits on pay. But it's not the worst thing that could happen.

If you want to kill capitalism, take the $9.9 trillion currently invested in U.S. stocks and consider the economic drag that would be created if investors demanded interest on their money -- as they would if they bought bonds instead of equities.

That's the cost of shattering trust.




Sometimes I don't agree with what she says, but I LIKE this one.

She speaks volumes about corporate America losing the trust of the "Average Joe who invests his hard earned money is the stock market.

Executive compensation...9%? That seems more than a little excessive to me.

While I'm not necessarily in favor of government limits, it IS time for business and industry to wise up and pay attention before it comes to that.
 
Mar 26, 2009
41
0
0
Isn't the whole idea of capitalism that the lower level workers produce more than they are paid? Hence the whole profit? Executive pay is out of hand and the lower level workers are being exploited. Should we cap exec pay? Probably. I think we would be better served by better educating our society top to bottom from the lower class to the upper class to make this issue more visible. I don't think the exploited know they are being exploited while someone doing an easier job is getting rich as hell. I think capitalist economies are especially vulnerable to ignorance and the very foundation of our system may be in jeopardy. We need smarter people making smarter decisions top to bottom. I think a lot of these problems such as exec pay are the canaries the coal mine.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Originally posted by: bipartisanpwnage
Isn't the whole idea of capitalism that the lower level workers produce more than they are paid? Hence the whole profit? Executive pay is out of hand and the lower level workers are being exploited. Should we cap exec pay? Probably. I think we would be better served by better educating our society top to bottom from the lower class to the upper class to make this issue more visible. I don't think the exploited know they are being exploited while someone doing an easier job is getting rich as hell. I think capitalist economies are especially vulnerable to ignorance and the very foundation of our system may be in jeopardy. We need smarter people making smarter decisions top to bottom. I think a lot of these problems such as exec pay are the canaries the coal mine.

Having read some Ravi Batra, I seem to agree with many of her opinions.
The general direction of capitalism is working towards the concentration of capital, employment and power. Many economics experts claim (including Ravi) that eventually excessive income and wealth inequalities will become the fundamental cause of financial crisis and economic depression. And it looks like we are at one of those pivotal points, likely because of the recent (last few decades) globalization of markets.