We really have no business driving SUVs

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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
I don't need a supercharged DOHC V8.

But I certainly want it, it satisfies my pursuit of happiness, and I can afford it, and there is someone willing to burden the cost to produce it and sell it to me.

In the United States of America, land of the free, that is all that matters.

I don't care if it's someone in a third world country making the floor mats for 50 cents an hour, that is their choice. Obviously for them to be doing it, they have decided for themselves that it is better than other alternatives (perhaps 0 cents an hour?). Whoever is doing it obviously has something to gain for themselves in some way or they wouldn't be doing it, or someone else in another situation who sees it as the better alternative in their own situation would be thrilled to do it.

As far as using resources... if something is sticking out of the ground for me to use I am going to use it. I'm not going to leave it in the ground, because you can be sure if I don't make use of it, someone else will. "Gaia" certainly isn't using it. The planet sustains me, not the other way around. And when that ability to sustain diminishes I will make adjustments at that time (ie: if theoretically speaking oil was to run out, then I have no choice but to find an alternative and the problem takes care of itself automatically like any other self balancing cycle in nature that requires no conscious intervention).

As far as conserving,

a) what's the point in prolonging the inevitable?
b) why are people concerned about something being used too much when there is plenty of it and they aren't even interested in having any of it? People are whining about gas prices but there they are buying it, or they are whining about people using it too much like they aren't going to be able to get any, yet they aren't even in line at the pump.
 

potato28

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
8,964
0
0
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: potato28
OK, but how am I going to tow my trailer? Or how am I going to transport me and 7 friends up a mountain with 200-300 kilos of skiing equipment? They do have their uses, but very few people use them for what they were designed for.

In Europe, people tow trailers with econoboxes. No, they don't go very fast, but the "need" for a giant truck to tow a trailer is a uniquely American trait.

It couldn't carry 7 people, but I used to regularly carry 1000 pounds of musical equipment in my 1991 Honda Accord station wagon, with no problems. Worse come to worse, you take two cars to go skiing, and you still burn LESS fuel than the SUV. And a FWD with chains is better in the snow than an AWD SUV with all-seasons. The above Accord has blown past many a struggling SUV on ski trips.

I already addressed this, a 4WD SUV will outperform the FWD sedan, station wagon, etc etc because there's just more weight and the gearing is meant for snowy, slippery conditions such as leaving it parked in a snow storm. Actually, the best snow vehicle I've ever seen is a FWD Ford Windstar, because it weighs more than the average SUV and has the advantage of the gearing due to the size of the thing.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Originally posted by: potato28
OK, but how am I going to tow my trailer? Or how am I going to transport me and 7 friends up a mountain with 200-300 kilos of skiing equipment? They do have their uses, but very few people use them for what they were designed for.

In Europe, people tow trailers with econoboxes. No, they don't go very fast, but the "need" for a giant truck to tow a trailer is a uniquely American trait.

It couldn't carry 7 people, but I used to regularly carry 1000 pounds of musical equipment in my 1991 Honda Accord station wagon, with no problems. Worse come to worse, you take two cars to go skiing, and you still burn LESS fuel than the SUV. And a FWD with chains is better in the snow than an AWD SUV with all-seasons. The above Accord has blown past many a struggling SUV on ski trips.

With all due respect, a mere 1,000 pounds is nothing. When I talk about trailers or towing I'm talking about trailers in the 3,000-5,000 pound range and above on the freeway at 65 mph or more for an extended period. I think we have a different idea of just what towing consists of.

I agree about driving in the snow though. I've driven RWD cars with all-season tires past people in stuck SUVs. Unless it gets absurdly bad, most of snow driving has to do with the driver and not the vehicle.

ZV
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
With all due respect, a mere 1,000 pounds is nothing. When I talk about trailers or towing I'm talking about trailers in the 3,000-5,000 pound range and above on the freeway at 65 mph or more for an extended period. I think we have a different idea of just what towing consists of.

I agree about driving in the snow though. I've driven RWD cars with all-season tires past people in stuck SUVs. Unless it gets absurdly bad, most of snow driving has to do with the driver and not the vehicle.

ZV

When I talk of towing, I'm thinking a two horse trailer is small. My parents have a 35' trailer that they inherited from my grandparents that weighs in at about 9000LBs dry and my sister and brother in law have a 29' toyhauler that is something like 6400LBs without anything in it. And going over the Sierra Nevadas towing one of these with a crossover would look like this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7q7K1bBhjkY
 

mooseracing

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
1,711
0
0
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: mooseracing
Originally posted by: senseamp
....For the twisty roads I drive on, lower weight, higher cornering ability and limits are more likely to help keep me alive than big tires. If I want to go off road, I have a mountain bike for that.

Where did big tires come in at? I know alot of stock cars that have larger tires than most stock 1/2 ton SUV's.



And what the OP doesn't get is that everyone drives what they want, we have that choice here. Driving trucks for no reason started in the lates 60's when Ford went to Independent Front Suspension, ever since then the industry has been trying to turn all the trucks into cars. the SUV's are already cars as most have gone away from a full frame, the main thing that made them safe to drive.

Full frame SUV vs. BMW 3 series.

Yea ok sure....



All this talk of renting trucks, where does this happen?

I want to tow something, I don't know of anyone that rents a truck with brakes and an engine meant for towing, including a brake controller. I would never use a box truck from U haul to tow, the ones around my area use bumper mount balls.

I don't also know of anyone with flat trailers or dump trailers to rent. If I am not supposed to own a truck why would I own a trailer.

 

mooseracing

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
1,711
0
0
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
In Europe, people tow trailers with econoboxes. No, they don't go very fast, but the "need" for a giant truck to tow a trailer is a uniquely American trait.

It's called safety....any car can pull anything, that doesn't matter. What matters is being able to safley handle it and stop it. Cars can't, show me one that can handle a load a truck pulls.

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
It couldn't carry 7 people, but I used to regularly carry 1000 pounds of musical equipment in my 1991 Honda Accord station wagon, with no problems. Worse come to worse, you take two cars to go skiing, and you still burn LESS fuel than the SUV. And a FWD with chains is better in the snow than an AWD SUV with all-seasons. The above Accord has blown past many a struggling SUV on ski trips.


How many miles are on that accord, if it did it day in and day out it won't last. This has been proven throughout history that cars don't stand up to a trucks work. Otherwise there would be more cars in fleets that get alot of abuse.


A FWD maiy be better with chains in less than 6" of snow, above that and an SUV/Truck that has ground clearence won't need chains. I've driven through over 2ft of snow with out chains, and only needed to go about 5mph to keep from getting stuck.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: senseamp
In rural areas, maybe. But most people don't live in rural areas. They live in suburbs, never take their vehicle off road, and can rent a truck locally. Also, it's more convenient to own a Uhaul than to rent one too. Let's all just drive Uhauls. Average Americans will need a Uhaul more often than they need an off roader.

Who said anything about an off-roader? I'm talking about towing your boat or your horse trailer, or hauling a load of mulch, or taking an old couch to the dump.

Those things come up at least once a month for an active family, probably more if you're towing horses; that's probably a once a week thing in the summer.

ZV

No horses or boats in my subdivision. If you can afford to own a boat or horse, you can afford a used truck as second vehicle and not have to commute in one.
Anyways, if you feel you need one, get one, I enjoy watching the look on SUV owner faces when filling up their land yachts lately :D
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
Anyways, if you feel you need one, get one, I enjoy watching the look on SUV owner faces when filling up their land yachts lately :D

You should come watch me fill up my SUV. It's great being able to afford gas regardless of price. :)

Besides, if I had a more fuel efficient vehicle it would only save me $50 a month.
 

marvdmartian

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2002
5,434
20
81
I blame the minivan crowd. People started driving them, noticed that they had a lot more storage & seating, and enjoyed it. Then along came the "manly men", who wanted the advantages of a minivan, without driving the "soccer mom car", and the SUV was born. We then sold the idea of the suv to women, by adding a zillion amenities to it, including the ceiling mounted dvd (years later, and I still wouldn't mind smacking the woman in that Dodge commercial).

Like most will agree, it was an idea sold to the american public when gas was cheap, and sadly, we didn't do much to fight it. Now I see people with one or two kids, driving vehicles designed for 6 adults, and using it for a daily commuter. :roll:
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Anyways, if you feel you need one, get one, I enjoy watching the look on SUV owner faces when filling up their land yachts lately :D

You should come watch me fill up my SUV. It's great being able to afford gas regardless of price. :)

Besides, if I had a more fuel efficient vehicle it would only save me $50 a month.

$50 is still money $600 per year. That's like a new computer. But hey, it's your money, burn it for all I care. I actually could own an SUV and not make much difference since I mostly bike to work. But I just see no point in it, since a much cheaper and economical Mazda3 gets the job done, in style, and fun. SUV is so soccer mom-like too. If I drove more, I'd be in line to buy one of those TDI Jetta Wagons they are coming out with, if they sold them in CA.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,960
140
106
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
The rest of the world doesn't appear to need them nor do they want them. I've spent the last week or so in Spain and now Portugal and you see very very few SUVs and almost no pickup trucks.

Wake up America, time to be reasonable and stop wasting the world's resources.

..eco-theist BS.

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Appealing to sensibilities of Americans doesn't work. appealing to money does as we see. SUV sales in the toilet, resale value in the toilet, seems teh love of affair with the SUV is finally going where it ought.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Appealing to sensibilities of Americans doesn't work. appealing to money does as we see. SUV sales in the toilet, resale value in the toilet, seems teh love of affair with the SUV is finally going where it ought.


Why do you care what others drive???
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
If you can afford to own a boat or horse, you can afford a used truck as second vehicle and not have to commute in one.

Oh, now that's just precious. What's it like in your little world where everyone with a boat or a horse is wealthy? Is the weather nice there?

The instant you mentioned a subdivision you lost any credibility as far as your ability to understand the sort of people who truly use trucks. Enjoy your comfortable city life, blissfully unaware of how life is in flyover country.

ZV
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Appealing to sensibilities of Americans doesn't work. appealing to money does as we see. SUV sales in the toilet, resale value in the toilet, seems teh love of affair with the SUV is finally going where it ought.


Why do you care what others drive???

If you haven't taken a look around, it's not something that only affects the drivers. Our affinity for gas guzzling land barges is affecting everything from food prices to heating prices.

This is a problem of diffused societal supported costs. It's akin to smokers. Society bears the costs of their decisions since they usually do not contribute enough to support them themselves.

Personally, I believe their should be higher gas-guzzler taxes and also a progressive non-commercial gas tax on SUVs. The more you use, the more you get taxed at an increasing rate. The tax money should go into a special account to drive more efficient vehicle R&D as well as alternative fuels and energy.

The "Me only" idea is what's killing this country.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Budmantom
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Appealing to sensibilities of Americans doesn't work. appealing to money does as we see. SUV sales in the toilet, resale value in the toilet, seems teh love of affair with the SUV is finally going where it ought.


Why do you care what others drive???

If you haven't taken a look around, it's not something that only affects the drivers. Our affinity for gas guzzling land barges is affecting everything from food prices to heating prices.

This is a problem of diffused societal supported costs. It's akin to smokers. Society bears the costs of their decisions since they usually do not contribute enough to support them themselves.

Personally, I believe their should be higher gas-guzzler taxes and also a progressive non-commercial gas tax on SUVs. The more you use, the more you get taxed at an increasing rate. The tax money should go into a special account to drive more efficient vehicle R&D as well as alternative fuels and energy.

The "Me only" idea is what's killing this country.

The only problem with that scenario is that isn't SUV's or even the US demand for oil driving the rising prices. As prices have continued to soar, demand for oil in the US and Europe have actually dropped, so why aren't prices dropping with lower demand? Because it isn't us. Demands for oil are surging in China and India and third world nations where the everyone needs a car mentality is just starting to take hold. In case our geography is a bit rusty, there are a whole lot of people in China and India.

"The IEA report said demand would rise most in developing countries, with Asia, the Middle East and Latin America accounting for nearly 90 percent of demand growth over the next five years."

We could all be driving hybrids today, and it wouldn't make a difference, prices would still be rising quickly.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Anyways, if you feel you need one, get one, I enjoy watching the look on SUV owner faces when filling up their land yachts lately :D

You should come watch me fill up my SUV. It's great being able to afford gas regardless of price. :)

Besides, if I had a more fuel efficient vehicle it would only save me $50 a month.

$50 is still money $600 per year. That's like a new computer. But hey, it's your money, burn it for all I care. I actually could own an SUV and not make much difference since I mostly bike to work. But I just see no point in it, since a much cheaper and economical Mazda3 gets the job done, in style, and fun. SUV is so soccer mom-like too. If I drove more, I'd be in line to buy one of those TDI Jetta Wagons they are coming out with, if they sold them in CA.

You care... you're just jealous you can't afford a more expensive vehicle so you justify your purchase of a Mazda by spiting everyone who drives a bigger car.

I knew gas prices were going to go up when I bought it and it didn't stop me then. Maybe I'll get another SUV when my lease is up just for you. ;)
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Anyways, if you feel you need one, get one, I enjoy watching the look on SUV owner faces when filling up their land yachts lately :D

You should come watch me fill up my SUV. It's great being able to afford gas regardless of price. :)

Besides, if I had a more fuel efficient vehicle it would only save me $50 a month.

$50 is still money $600 per year. That's like a new computer. But hey, it's your money, burn it for all I care. I actually could own an SUV and not make much difference since I mostly bike to work. But I just see no point in it, since a much cheaper and economical Mazda3 gets the job done, in style, and fun. SUV is so soccer mom-like too. If I drove more, I'd be in line to buy one of those TDI Jetta Wagons they are coming out with, if they sold them in CA.

You care... you're just jealous you can't afford a more expensive vehicle so you justify your purchase of a Mazda by spiting everyone who drives a bigger car.

I knew gas prices were going to go up when I bought it and it didn't stop me then. Maybe I'll get another SUV when my lease is up just for you. ;)

The most ridiculous thing I've seen on the internet is the "you're jealous of SUVs" bullcrap. WTF?!?!?! Since when were SUVs more expensive than cars?

 

AdamK47

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,520
3,229
136
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Anyways, if you feel you need one, get one, I enjoy watching the look on SUV owner faces when filling up their land yachts lately :D

You should come watch me fill up my SUV. It's great being able to afford gas regardless of price. :)

Besides, if I had a more fuel efficient vehicle it would only save me $50 a month.

$50 is still money $600 per year. That's like a new computer. But hey, it's your money, burn it for all I care. I actually could own an SUV and not make much difference since I mostly bike to work. But I just see no point in it, since a much cheaper and economical Mazda3 gets the job done, in style, and fun. SUV is so soccer mom-like too. If I drove more, I'd be in line to buy one of those TDI Jetta Wagons they are coming out with, if they sold them in CA.

You care... you're just jealous you can't afford a more expensive vehicle so you justify your purchase of a Mazda by spiting everyone who drives a bigger car.

I knew gas prices were going to go up when I bought it and it didn't stop me then. Maybe I'll get another SUV when my lease is up just for you. ;)

SUV mentality right there. Bigger does not equal better. Stop with that primative thinking.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
Originally posted by: Throckmorton

The most ridiculous thing I've seen on the internet is the "you're jealous of SUVs" bullcrap. WTF?!?!?! Since when were SUVs more expensive than cars?

About the 90's when SUVs stopped being truck like and started being mobile living rooms. With the main growth being in large SUVs such as the Chevy Tahoe.

2005 Tahoe MSRP: $40k
1995 Tahoe MSRP: $25k
1988 K5 Blazer MSRP: $16k

2005 Grand Prix MSRP: $25k
1995 Grand Prix MSRP: $17k
1988 Grand Prix MSRP: $15k


notice a trend?
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
People for whatever reason still claim SUV owners buy them as status symbols... meanwhile you can get one for the same price as a Chevy Malibu. "Wasted resources" is not the big reason why people are hating on SUV owners. Don't kid yourself. And read Pariah's post just above. The haters have issues far too deep to reason with words.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
Originally posted by: rh71
People for whatever reason still claim SUV owners buy them as status symbols... meanwhile you can get one for the same price as a Chevy Malibu. "Wasted resources" is not the big reason why people are hating on SUV owners. Don't kid yourself. And read Pariah's post just above. The haters have issues far too deep to reason with words.

I'm actually quite enjoying this SUV bashing stage...they are getting ridiculously cheap. I am thinking about taking advantage of an offer a friend of mine has made to purchase his 2008 VW Touareg V6/Premium Package (Xenon, etc)...new it was $45K...for $25K...it only has 8K miles on it...he's an idiot...but he "needs to lower his monthly payments" to afford gas. Just awesome. My wife really doesn't need a vehicle to replace here Civic...but neither of us drive many miles and she'd love a Touareg. Financial sense will probably get the better of me...but really the deals out there right now are monumental. Yeah for stupidity.