We need to embrace China, rather than attempt to change them

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Why the West must reOrient
By Francesco Sisci

BEIJING - The West in recent decades has been attempting to change China through criticism and apocalyptic predictions. These help China to avoid traps, to prevent possible stumbles and to be careful about the direction it takes and the decisions it makes. For instance on human-rights issues, all the criticism helps the Chinese Communist Party to be on its toes, and in this way we Westerners help to make China a more harmonious society.

Yet while we help China to change, we overlook the fact that we



should change ourselves, because China's growth has brought a systemic change to the world at large. As it spearheads the general growth of Asia, particularly Southeast Asia and India, it foreshadows a different world, where for the first time in at least two centuries the West will become an economic minority.

It is as if we were facing a huge climatic change, as if we went from the glacial era to a temperate era, or vice versa. In this climatic change, we are going to die if we don't change our habits. It is not because China is a threat, that it is malevolently planning an attack on the West. It is because there is a change of climate, and those who do not adapt to the new environment will inevitably suffer.

Failing to perceive change is common in history. In the late 16th century, William Shakespeare thought Venice was the most advanced country in the world, and this was the main reason he set some of his best plays in Venice, for instance The Merchant of Venice and Othello. Romeo and Juliet is set in Verona, near Venice.

Yet the reality was that England was the country leading the changes in Europe and Venice was in decline. But England still looked up to Venice, and while the example of Venice drove England to change, Venice itself failed to perceive what was happening. One can argue that if the Venetians had recognized the changes in England, they might have considered England a threat, as the one country taking away the old Venetian supremacy. But in fact the situation was much more complex. The strong presence of the Turks made Mediterranean trade with the Far East more complicated and costly. At the same time, the new Atlantic routes brought into Europe the wealth of America, its gold and its new crops, while at the same time providing access to Asian goods and spices.

In a nutshell, the whole historical environment was changing, yet people not only in Venice but also in England, as Shakespeare proves, failed to see it coming.

Perhaps this has also to do with our psychological defense mechanism whereby we rule out things we don't like: often when it's too painful to accept our reality we misread it. This is a natural process, but one that can be structured to serve specific motives and goals. Then it becomes an ideology.

A similar process is at work with the Western approach to China. We often fail to recognize the climate change heralded by China's growth. However, this psychological and ideological process in the West does not harm China much because China is discreet in taking our criticisms, accepting those that help it improve itself while rejecting those that are not useful. But while this process helps China, it hurts the West because it hides the climate change, robbing us of the time we need to prepare for the new environment.

Randy Peerenboom in his book China's Long March toward Rule of Law argues that the present authoritarianism is good for China. Of course there are excesses; there are cases when a forceful reaction of the police is unnecessary and unhelpful. He argues that perhaps 20% of the authoritarian regime could be dispensed with without endangering the country, and actually improving the situation. But overall, he claims, authoritarianism as practiced in China is helping the country to develop, and the whole world benefits from this development.

Peerenboom backs this view with statistics and data, but his findings also ring true on another level. They are easy to believe because people in the streets of Beijing or Shanghai look optimistic - they smile, they seem happy, while people in New York or Rome don't.

Peerenboom's findings should be a stepping stone toward consideration in the West as to how we should change to cope with China's change. But the book is bound to be controversial, because it says to the Venice of our times that England has a different model and if we don't change they will overtake us.

This realization changes the focus of attention, from China to the West.

We are the ones who should consider making important changes while looking at the Chinese reality and studying it in a very cold and non-ideological fashion. Thus ideological attacks against China and the Communist Party seem part of a larger misreading of China. They lend credence to the theory of a clash of civilizations. In fact China can be hardly called communist. Yet the calls to the Chinese communists to convert to democratic rule sound very similar to the past attitude when the West was saying to the Chinese and other non-Western people: You heathens must convert to Christianity and Western values or we'll send you to hell.

It is true that this approach worked with the poor native Americans in the 19th century. But even back then it did not work in China, which was too big and too complex to be completely overtaken by the West. In fact we had the opposite experience, for any power that has taken over China ultimately has become Chinese itself. It was true for the Mongols of the Yuan Empire, the Manchu of the Qing Dynasty, and could be also true of the Westerners: if they were to rule China, in a few decades they could well become Chinese. More important, after being sinicized the conquerors were upstaged by Chinese rebellions, which eventually took over the former victors and expanded the Chinese borders. For instance, the Manchu have become a de facto integral part of China with both their culture and their territory. The Qing in the Chinese modern imagination were not a foreign power winning China, they are part of Chinese history, fully digested in it.

A similar phenomenon has happened to the West already. Rome, which conquered Greece militarily, was itself conquered by Greek culture.

So we have two situations. First, it is very difficult to take over China. The West did not succeed in its attempt a century ago when China was weak, and is much less likely to succeed now when China is stronger. And second, if the West were to take control of China, it could be worse for the West, because China could sinicize the West and take it over.

Therefore if we want to preserve ourselves and our differences, we have to preserve China. And to preserve ourselves before this massive transformation, we must change many things. But how?

We should tell China: We need you to be democratic because the world needs to be mutually politically transparent; we are transparent and you should be as well. There should be something like the World Trade Organization agreement, a World Political Agreement (WPO).

But if under such an arrangement China were to change, an even bigger change would be in store for us.

Our democratic structures seem out of sync with the present world. They were coined and groomed in a much smaller and less interconnected world, and now we find that our political structures are at the same time too democratic and not democratic enough.

For instance in the European Union, many rules are dictated and imposed by bureaucrats who are not elected and possibly are less accountable than Chinese mandarins. There is a huge deficit of democracy in the EU. Why can these bureaucrats impose rules on milk or the content of my chocolate bar? What is their legitimacy? What is their interest, their goals? These notions are fuzzy in every single EU country, where lively domestic politics, with its tempo of lively, fierce political campaigns, draws more attention than distant and murky dealings in Brussels.

At the same time, for instance in Italy, a country that is part of the European Union, every small town is rich enough to send a representative to Miami. Having done so it feels the right - and there is no legal obstacle to it - to establish direct political relations with Florida, often without even knowing that Florida's capital is Tallahassee and not Miami. But in a national agreement maybe the issues of foreign policy should be the responsibility of the state. In one case there seems to be too little democracy, in the other case too much. Neither can work - they both make the West weak vis-a-vis the climate change brought about by China.

Thus it is essential that we understand China as it actually is, and not as it appears through some ideological lens. And perhaps we should start thinking of a WPO.

Jared Diamond in his latest book Collapse speaks about civilizations that took a wrong turn and collapsed. It sounds as if he is speaking of us, the Western world: there is a huge change, and we fail to recognize it and adapt to it. As Diamond says, those who do so perish.

Francesco Sisci is Asia editor of the Italian daily La Stampa.
http://atimes.com/atimes/China/HA28Ad02.html

I tend to agree with the article. We are trying to fight a loosing battle and should instead just accept the fact and embrace the new emerging superpowers.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I couldn't agree more with the idea that going with the flow is really the only way to go, but I don't quite understand this idea of "loosing". A powerful China, or a powerful India, or a powerful Russia, or whatever place we're talking about, seems like a change in the world, but I'm not sure the only way to "win" is to be the only one of top.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Wait, embrace a dictatorship that kills protestors? Embrace dictatorship that locks you up if you're practicing your religion? Embrace a dictatorship that arrests you for speaking out against the Tyrants in Beijing?

They might become a superpower, but America should never "embrace" such a country. But maybe, the way that we have acted for the past 2 decades, maybe we should. After our own atrocities committed by the government in Waco and other places and our abuse of power after 9/11, maybe China has a moral high ground.

But compare China's track record for the past 50 years to ours and you'll see that its them who should embrace us. Sure, we commit acts of terror, such as Waco, but China does that on a daily basis.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I think the important thing is to "embrace" SLOWLY. To say that China is as respressive as it was thirty years ago is ridiculous. On that basis I agree that China has made a LOT of progress when it comes to human rights. The improvement that they have made thus far should be lauded. But don't expect them to become perfect beacons overnight, and neither should we. It will be long and slow but they as a people will get their rights and hopefully move towards some kind of government where people get representation. Slow change will provide the strong base for lasting peace and "Democracy"...rushing and invading countries like Iraq just help delay it fifty years or so~
Acknowledge they have made substancial improvements, and push for more improvements.
The only part where we will probably get slow change is the areas where we do not respect our own citizen's rights itself. It will be hard to pursuade their government to give up the "Great Firewall of China" when our government encroaches upon the internet as well.

In general though, I feel government has been getting more and more authoritative as time moves on...so maybe two hundred years from now government will have control that we never even fathomed possible.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Originally posted by: magomago
I think the important thing is to "embrace" SLOWLY. To say that China is as respressive as it was thirty years ago is ridiculous. On that basis I agree that China has made a LOT of progress when it comes to human rights. The improvement that they have made thus far should be lauded. But don't expect them to become perfect beacons overnight, and neither should we. It will be long and slow but they as a people will get their rights and hopefully move towards some kind of government where people get representation. Slow change will provide the strong base for lasting peace and "Democracy"...rushing and invading countries like Iraq just help delay it fifty years or so~
Acknowledge they have made substancial improvements, and push for more improvements.
The only part where we will probably get slow change is the areas where we do not respect our own citizen's rights itself. It will be hard to pursuade their government to give up the "Great Firewall of China" when our government encroaches upon the internet as well.

In general though, I feel government has been getting more and more authoritative as time moves on...so maybe two hundred years from now government will have control that we never even fathomed possible.

China is as repressive towards its civilians as it has ever been. Tiannanmen Square massacre, or more accurately, the Beijin Massacre shows that. There is a lot of hidden stuff on China that goes unreported. If you thought our government totally blocked access to our media from covering the Waco tragedy, then China is probably much worse. Dictatorships appear on the outside as changing. They might have been moving towards capitalism, but they're still ruled by Tyrants in Beijing.

Speaking of Democracy, these are the same Tyrants who want to tear down the great democracy of Taiwan. China has no need currently to invade another country. Its massive size and population give it enough problems on its own. I guess the forced destruction of people's homes in China so they could build their dam is a sign of freedom.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: magomago
I think the important thing is to "embrace" SLOWLY. To say that China is as respressive as it was thirty years ago is ridiculous. On that basis I agree that China has made a LOT of progress when it comes to human rights. The improvement that they have made thus far should be lauded. But don't expect them to become perfect beacons overnight, and neither should we. It will be long and slow but they as a people will get their rights and hopefully move towards some kind of government where people get representation. Slow change will provide the strong base for lasting peace and "Democracy"...rushing and invading countries like Iraq just help delay it fifty years or so~
Acknowledge they have made substancial improvements, and push for more improvements.
The only part where we will probably get slow change is the areas where we do not respect our own citizen's rights itself. It will be hard to pursuade their government to give up the "Great Firewall of China" when our government encroaches upon the internet as well.

In general though, I feel government has been getting more and more authoritative as time moves on...so maybe two hundred years from now government will have control that we never even fathomed possible.

China is as repressive towards its civilians as it has ever been. Tiannanmen Square massacre, or more accurately, the Beijin Massacre shows that. There is a lot of hidden stuff on China that goes unreported. If you thought our government totally blocked access to our media from covering the Waco tragedy, then China is probably much worse. Dictatorships appear on the outside as changing. They might have been moving towards capitalism, but they're still ruled by Tyrants in Beijing.

Speaking of Democracy, these are the same Tyrants who want to tear down the great democracy of Taiwan. China has no need currently to invade another country. Its massive size and population give it enough problems on its own. I guess the forced destruction of people's homes in China so they could build their dam is a sign of freedom.

Yeah I'm going to highlight that part and read it again. If you still think it is as respressive as the past, then I suggest you go read about the atrocities then and now. The atrocities now should still not be excused, but back then they were much WORSE. In fact, like for the average Chinese was worse overall bar economic situations!
Imagine being married in military communist garb thanking Mao Ze Dong for all the has done, and denouncing the enemies of Communism. I doubt over 90% of Chinese today have his picture in their house, or even the current preimer's picture. Do you say that is not a huge improvement?
Imagine having to go to GREAT lengths to maintain your house from the revolutionary guards~ back then ANYTHING that was part of the "old cultural" was destroyed. Today, China was frantically trying to save its cultural past as the Three gorge's damn's water elevation is rising, while having an EXTREMELY tough time fighting off theft of their national treasures. Do you not consider that improvement?

But there are problems still. In order to help excavate a lot of its archeology, it isn't uncommon for the government to temporarily seize your ship for days at a time to provide transport. People are being forcibly relocated to make room for the three gorges dam (well its not like they can stay anyways unless they want to be under hundreds of feet of water). There is still a LOT of corruption in their politics (Which we know we COMPLETELY lack ;)) .

I agree that we should push for more freedoms, but to say they have made no progress is a narrowminded view.


Btw..."the great democracy of Taiwan"? Bwahaha....go read on its "democractic history" before you say that ;) Taiwan is also making inroads towards democracy like China, but they are still a loooong ways from it
 

diapickle

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2005
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Originally posted by: raildogg

Speaking of Democracy, these are the same Tyrants who want to tear down the great democracy of Taiwan. China has no need currently to invade another country.
What country? Who recognizes this Country? The U.N.? The U.S.? If they are their own country, why are they fighting for "independence"?

I guess the forced destruction of people's homes in China so they could build their dam is a sign of freedom.
Ever heard of "eminent domain"?
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
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106
Originally posted by: diapickle
What country? Who recognizes this Country? The U.N.? The U.S.? If they are their own country, why are they fighting for "independence"
Taiwan has had its independance for over 50 years, the only element they haven't had is a technicality. Incidentally, they WERE the UN recognized government of China for quite awhile, so your argument seems closer to they someone lost their independance after gaining it. Selling out a population of a true democracy to a dictatorship with the justification of a technicality certainly isn't something I can support.
 

diapickle

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2005
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Originally posted by: Aegeon

Taiwan has had its independance for over 50 years, the only element they haven't had is a technicality. Incidentally, they WERE the UN recognized government of China for quite awhile, so your argument seems closer to they someone lost their independance after gaining it. Selling out a population of a true democracy to a dictatorship with the justification of a technicality certainly isn't something I can support.

Yes, they were in the UN. Why? Because that "country" is the Republic of CHINA, whose territories include Mainland China, Hong Kong, etc. as well as the island of Taiwan. These simple facts still remain in the constitution today. The divide for 50+ years is the result of a civil war and is not evidence of Taiwan's independece as an island. There has never been an "independent" state of Taiwan and probably never will be.

Oh, and no one is selling out anyone here. I was just pointing out a factual flaw in raildogg's post.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,111
926
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I only have a few words to respond to that. Fsck china and the junk they sailed in on.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,824
2,613
136
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.
 

Pepsei

Lifer
Dec 14, 2001
12,895
1
0
one way for Taiwan to become a state by name (as they're already a state by function) is to get rid of the name "republic of china". and then petition UN to join as republic of taiwan.

as the speech made by the "president" of taiwan yesterday.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: diapickle
What country? Who recognizes this Country? The U.N.? The U.S.? If they are their own country, why are they fighting for "independence"
Taiwan has had its independance for over 50 years, the only element they haven't had is a technicality. Incidentally, they WERE the UN recognized government of China for quite awhile, so your argument seems closer to they someone lost their independance after gaining it. Selling out a population of a true democracy to a dictatorship with the justification of a technicality certainly isn't something I can support.


Taiwai has widespread voter buying, and corruption. They are not a full democracy yet.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
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China is what it is because the West makes it that way. They are an economic giant because the West has invested in it. China needs to learn how to be economically self reliant before it can really be a threat to anyone. At this point, almost all of their economic growth over the last three decades is wholly owned by the West - and we are profiting greatly off of it.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.

Why?

 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
2
81
The article seems rather incoherent. Is there a main point?
How is the west trying to change China? Criticism? That is largely irrelevant. China is changing slowly in its own way. Criticism does not affect China but it appeases western citizens, so why not have it?
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
I don't know why the West is so focused on changing someone else's political system. I mean after the mess in Iraq, people should've realize that if there should be any hope of making a country democratic, the people in the country need to want democracy first.

I know for a fact that many Chinese wants democracy, but because all the push from the West, they kinda view embracing democracy in a way like selling out to the West. Kinda like in Iraq, many iraqi hates Saddam and the old system, but they don't want to embrace American who invaded their country and force a system on them.

If the West can just leave the Chinese alone, and instead focusing on trading with China, it will be much faster for China to become a democratic country by their own will.

As China trade with the rest of the world, Chinese people will have more access to the outside world, and Chinese people will be wealthier and more educated. Eventually Chinese will realize by themselves that they don't need a few corrupted communist politicians telling them what to do. And if enough people realize that, Chinese will fight for the change themselves.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.

Why?

Because I wouldn't want to work for communists, seems kind of counter-productive to me.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.

Why?

Because I wouldn't want to work for communists, seems kind of counter-productive to me.

You already are, you buy communist products, that empower more communists.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.

Why?

Because I wouldn't want to work for communists, seems kind of counter-productive to me.

You already are, you buy communist products, that empower more communists.

Not when I can help it I'm not, and working in a Chinese owned factory wouldn't be the same as buying as communist made product by any stretch of the imagination.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.

Why?

Because I wouldn't want to work for communists, seems kind of counter-productive to me.

You already are, you buy communist products, that empower more communists.

Not when I can help it I'm not, and working in a Chinese owned factory wouldn't be the same as buying as communist made product by any stretch of the imagination.

What makes you think you would be working in a chineese factory?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Thump553
I totally disagree with that article. Appeasement has been our policy for well over 30 years, through both Republican and Democratic adminstrations (but more so with the GOP). The result-major USA/international corporations and their top leaders and the Chinese elite have become fantastically wealthy. US jobs and economic power has been exported directly to China. We are trading our future away to a country of slave labor and other repressive tactics for the sake of cheap VCRs.

I've heard story after story from Americans that personally did business in China that an essential part of the business is that we deliver our "know-how" and intellectual property to them gratis-in a country that only pays lip service to the concept of protecting intellectual property.

I'm hoping this country wakes up before it is too late-and it already very well may be.

I always look for the Made in China label, and avoid it whereever feasible.

<-- so-called liberal.

China is well down the path of industrial develpoment that we similarily provided for the Japanese, after WWII, but they're like, what 10 times (?) bigger. I think anybody who lives another 20 years will live to regret what we're doing now. Enjoy your cheap VCR's and DVD's while you can.

Why?

Because I wouldn't want to work for communists, seems kind of counter-productive to me.

You already are, you buy communist products, that empower more communists.

Not when I can help it I'm not, and working in a Chinese owned factory wouldn't be the same as buying as communist made product by any stretch of the imagination.

What makes you think you would be working in a chineese factory?

Well, the Japanese now own car factories in the USA and employ Americans. If all we respect is who can make the product the cheapest then why wouldn't it follow that someday we would have factories in the US owned by china?