We must help out the terrorist financially!

[kylebisme]

but we wern't geting attacked by terrorists back when we started meddling in the middle east, so that argument is compleatly off base.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: tec699
Before anyone flames me I'm not talking about giving them money so they can buy weapons to attack us and other countries. What I'd like to see is the American government giving money to countries like Iran and Afghanistan so they can build schools, highways, government buildings, parks, etc?

Only this will curb terrorist attacks in our country. Dropping bombs on little babies does nothing but stirs up the anger among young Arab men. We should be giving them a better life. Let?s take them out of the extreme poverty that they face daily and let?s make their lives more enjoyable.

I think this could work. Maybe we could have a special tax that would go to the countries that are more prone to engage in terrorist activity? Unless we do something I fear that the US will have to endure more destruction from the hands of people like Bin Laden.

You're on the right track but your conclusion is flawed. First, you shouldn't confuse Muslims with terrorists. We should help Muslims but not the terrorists for obvious reasons.

This reminds me of an interview on NPR with a soldier's mother. She said, "I know he's doing the right thing. He's breaking down the doors of the terrorists houses. But it's dangerous and I worry..." Not all Iraqis are terrorists! In fact, none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqis.

That said I agree with Klixxer. I don't think this is about money. It's about not crapping on the Arab world like we have been doing.

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: steeplerot
No Klixxer I think it's more like they think America's sh1t does not stink and we can do whatever we wish for whatever reasons/lies our fearful leader the tells them.
Blind nationalism wheee just like 1939!
How about an anschluss? Canada anyone? or How about Colombia? Lots of coke there perfect for washing down all the Afgani heroin while driving that big SUV on iraqi oil.

I REALLY wish you wouldn't use Nazi remarks, not because i live in Germany atm but because of other reasons, my grandparents fled Hitler so i don't like the comparison.

I really wish Hitler and Nazis wouldn't be so taboo. To learn from the past we need to talk about it. And often that means analogizing to the past. If everyone's pet taboo was hidden from discussion, we would have nothing left to talk about.

Might very well be the first thing you and I agree on.. Come on, can't we all just be friends? Group hug?

 

[irwincur]

What I'd like to see is the American government giving money to countries like Iran and Afghanistan so they can build schools, highways, government buildings, parks, etc?

Some people really do live in lala land.

Have you ever heard of the World Bank? They are a UN organization that gives money to poor nations for infrastructure improvements. The World Bank has yet to have a successful project, they have also yet to see their (our) money spent correctly. Mugabwe of Nigeria became the richest man in the world with the help of the World Bank and his embezzlement of billions from it. In the end, when they came to see the work that was done, they were shocked (big surprise) too see that he had not spent a penny on the people.

You cannot just give money to a nation and then dictate how they spend it. Hell the feds have a hard enough time doing this with the States. The point is, if Iran get a big check from the US they will spend it however they want, or at least create a cover of sorts to funnel it to wherever they want.

Another good example is the Oil for Food program. If everyone (except the US) was violating the program, what was the point. All people (France, Germany, and Russia) who were illegally buying oil from Iraq were basically giving Saddam money. What did he do with that 'foreign aid' - he horded it. At a certain point the program was stopped because there was not point, everything going on in Iraq was illegal.

And some people wonder why France, Germany, and Russia were against the war. Like they had noble reasons. Their only reaons were 1) greed and 2) they knew that the Oil for Food scam would surface if Saddam was outed.

 

[Corn]

you kill one man and his three sons want revenge, as would you in that situation.

Actually, no, I would not. But then again, I'm civilized and would prefer justice instead of revenge. Go figure.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: irwincur

What I'd like to see is the American government giving money to countries like Iran and Afghanistan so they can build schools, highways, government buildings, parks, etc?

Some people really do live in lala land.

Have you ever heard of the World Bank? They are a UN organization that gives money to poor nations for infrastructure improvements. The World Bank has yet to have a successful project, they have also yet to see their (our) money spent correctly. Mugabwe of Nigeria became the richest man in the world with the help of the World Bank and his embezzlement of billions from it. In the end, when they came to see the work that was done, they were shocked (big surprise) too see that he had not spent a penny on the people.

You cannot just give money to a nation and then dictate how they spend it. Hell the feds have a hard enough time doing this with the States. The point is, if Iran get a big check from the US they will spend it however they want, or at least create a cover of sorts to funnel it to wherever they want.

Another good example is the Oil for Food program. If everyone (except the US) was violating the program, what was the point. All people (France, Germany, and Russia) who were illegally buying oil from Iraq were basically giving Saddam money. What did he do with that 'foreign aid' - he horded it. At a certain point the program was stopped because there was not point, everything going on in Iraq was illegal.

And some people wonder why France, Germany, and Russia were against the war. Like they had noble reasons. Their only reaons were 1) greed and 2) they knew that the Oil for Food scam would surface if Saddam was outed.

Do you have any evidence 1) and 2) were their only reasons for opposing the war? Is it possible they had multiple reasons?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Klixxer
I think that most of you don't get it, they don't want your money and they don't want you there either, that is what these terrorists are fighting for, not against freedom, christianity or anything else, they simply don't want you there. If Europe were meddling with the leadership of the states, wouldn't you be a bit pissed too?

Here's the problem, they ARE meddling in the United States.. they are flying planes into our buildings.. the Pentagon, and they tried to get the White House... that sounds like messing with the leadership to me.. Did you forget about 9/11?

Terrorists don't just want us out of their countries, they want us off the face of this planet.

...

Who started meddling with who first? Last I checked 9/11 was a RESPONSE to our meddling.

Chicken.. Egg.. one can argue that the only reason we are meddling there is because of the terrorists to begin with.

...

Such as when?

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: steeplerot
No Klixxer I think it's more like they think America's sh1t does not stink and we can do whatever we wish for whatever reasons/lies our fearful leader the tells them.
Blind nationalism wheee just like 1939!
How about an anschluss? Canada anyone? or How about Colombia? Lots of coke there perfect for washing down all the Afgani heroin while driving that big SUV on iraqi oil.

I REALLY wish you wouldn't use Nazi remarks, not because i live in Germany atm but because of other reasons, my grandparents fled Hitler so i don't like the comparison.

I really wish Hitler and Nazis wouldn't be so taboo. To learn from the past we need to talk about it. And often that means analogizing to the past. If everyone's pet taboo was hidden from discussion, we would have nothing left to talk about.

Ok, i am not comfortable with the discussion and it would as, arsbanned pointed out invoke Godwins law, which means that you loose by default.

What many here don't understand is that i adhere to the basic rules of Usenet, that means i have lurked for some time and it also means that i apply the laws of usenet. Something created before your kiddie @ss was even born.

I might be agressive at times, but rarely because someone is riling me up, i probably should take some things to PM instead but i don't.

IOW, i won't last long, so don't worry, then you can go back to your discussion about how this BS tiny Bush inflated war is comparable to WWII. Until then, do me the curtesy (sp?) of excluding those comparisons, because a blind chimpanzee (sp?) would see that they are not valid and do not bring the discussion any further.

Yes i know what happened, it is not like anything that is happening now. or that has EVER happened in Iraq, if you want to compare it to anything, US colonialism or Soviet Stalinism would be better examples, you can pick any of those, or why not the spanish inquisition or English colonialism around the world?

History will not be forgotten and it will not be repeated, imperialism in it's true form will always loose.

 

[Edge3D]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Klixxer
I think that most of you don't get it, they don't want your money and they don't want you there either, that is what these terrorists are fighting for, not against freedom, christianity or anything else, they simply don't want you there. If Europe were meddling with the leadership of the states, wouldn't you be a bit pissed too?

Here's the problem, they ARE meddling in the United States.. they are flying planes into our buildings.. the Pentagon, and they tried to get the White House... that sounds like messing with the leadership to me.. Did you forget about 9/11?

Terrorists don't just want us out of their countries, they want us off the face of this planet.

 

[irwincur]

Do you have any evidence 1) and 2) were their only reasons for opposing the war? Is it possible they had multiple reasons?

I think it is pretty obvious, but there are more reasons if you want them...

- Iraq owed Russia $40 billion, even Putin told us he would support the war if we could guarantee payment. In other words, he wanted us to give them $40 billion for their permission.

- France had numerous contracts with Iraq.

- France and Russia accounted for almost 80% of the arms trade with Iraq, including illegal AA missiles that were found in use during the war. The most damning part, the missiles were developed by France only two years ago and were most likely sold shortly after the UN decided to punish Iraq.

- France, Germany, and Russia all voted for the UN to punish Iraq. However when the time came they all backed down. These three countries coincidentally were the only three known to have been buying illegal oil from Saddam.


The reasons were purly to cover their own asses and to protect their investments into Saddam. To think that were taking the moral high ground is insane. It just so happened that they could play off of the growing Socialist peace movement and cover their tracks. Idiot leftists actually thought that this was legit.

 

[Klixxer]

Eh, the US went berzerk in the ME and you are surprised you got a response? Yeah, sure, they are against freedom, that is why Al Quaida is trying to get you out of SA, so that freedom will be forgotten.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: irwincur

Do you have any evidence 1) and 2) were their only reasons for opposing the war? Is it possible they had multiple reasons?

I think it is pretty obvious, but there are more reasons if you want them...

- Iraq owed Russia $40 billion, even Putin told us he would support the war if we could guarantee payment. In other words, he wanted us to give them $40 billion for their permission.

- France had numerous contracts with Iraq.

- France and Russia accounted for almost 80% of the arms trade with Iraq, including illegal AA missiles that were found in use during the war. The most damning part, the missiles were developed by France only two years ago and were most likely sold shortly after the UN decided to punish Iraq.

- France, Germany, and Russia all voted for the UN to punish Iraq. However when the time came they all backed down. These three countries coincidentally were the only three known to have been buying illegal oil from Saddam.


The reasons were purly to cover their own asses and to protect their investments into Saddam. To think that were taking the moral high ground is insane. It just so happened that they could play off of the growing Socialist peace movement and cover their tracks. Idiot leftists actually thought that this was legit.

You said 1) and 2) were the ONLY reasons. What evidence do you have that those were the ONLY reasons? These facts suggest 1) and 2) were reasons, but they don't show they were the ONLY reasons.

 

[irwincur]

You said 1) and 2) were the ONLY reasons. What evidence do you have that those were the ONLY reasons? These facts suggest 1) and 2) were reasons, but they don't show they were the ONLY reasons.

1. and 2. broadly define the multiple reasons, but trust me the reasons all fall into those catagories. Actually the reasons can all be boiled down to greed.

However it would be impossible to prove because I am not privy to the internal discussions of foreign governments. But, I can still draw conclusions from the misty media reports and half cover ups of what was going on in Iraq between about 1996 and 2002 or so. I think the most recent revelations at the UN also tend to lend support to this argument.



Not to mention it does not matter if these were their only reasons. They could have morally opposed the war, but 1. and 2. would counter any moral authority that they had. You cannot be morally correct while at the same time stealing from the poor and propping up Saddam.

Quit playing word games with me. Offer an alternative explanation - I would love to hear what you can come up with to prove that the group of three were actually opposing the war for the right reasons. If you make that argument, tell me why during the same time as the UN arguments France entered two colony wars without getting permission from the UN? Also tell me why the only nation to ever go to the UN to ask for war is the US? Why do the standards not apply to Euopean nations why regularly involve themselves in non UN approved wars?

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Corn

you kill one man and his three sons want revenge, as would you in that situation.

Actually, no, I would not. But then again, I'm civilized and would prefer justice instead of revenge. Go figure.

1) justice = revenge, you attack ppl in the middle east / favour regimes which are no more 'right' than the other, they perform 'justice' and attack you (9/11), you perform 'revenge' on a country which has no relation to the attack...interchange for your reasoning

2) you think you are more civilized than ppl in the ME?...hah...i have a few friends at university who goto school out of country, and they are more informed than us. Most of the ppl actually pay attention to political issues and most of the countries are very civil. There is a point where some extremist groups (who do not represent the majority of ppl in the region) decide not to stand for this obvious favouritism/unjustified attacks and are no worse than americans...just that their war is low cost as they do not have the funds.

Doesnt mean you campaign is any more justified. Again...put urself in their shoes. They think fighting for their country is noble, is that not the same mindset here?...
I can't believe the american mindset which says that their ways of doing things is better/right and they are more educated. Such a tragedy

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
No Klixxer I think it's more like they think America's sh1t does not stink and we can do whatever we wish for whatever reasons/lies our fearful leader the tells them.
Blind nationalism wheee just like 1939!
How about an anschluss? Canada anyone? or How about Colombia? Lots of coke there perfect for washing down all the Afgani heroin while driving that big SUV on iraqi oil.

yup, that iraqi oil is keeping pump prices in check, isnt it?

 

[Stunt]

Actually it was the US that sanctioned iraqi oil...russia was able to import it and use while shipping its oil to US/etc.
All the oil wells have pumps on them...i really dont think that oil supply will go up drastically post war.
Although supply is down since u guys invaded the country...:S

 

[Kappo]

Originally posted by: Klixxer
I think that most of you don't get it, they don't want your money and they don't want you there either, that is what these terrorists are fighting for, not against freedom, christianity or anything else, they simply don't want you there. If Europe were meddling with the leadership of the states, wouldn't you be a bit pissed too?

ROFLMAO you havent heard very many public statements by Al-Q have you? Thier "mission" is to convert the entire world into muslim radicals. If you do not hold thier beliefs then you are "an infadel and must die". Same thing with the palastinians. They will not be happy until every US citizen and and Isralie is dead. They have stated this MANY times.

 

[SmokeRngs]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: syzygy

Originally posted by: tec699
Before anyone flames me I'm not talking about giving them money so they can buy weapons to attack us and other countries. What I'd like to see is the American government giving money to countries like Iran and Afghanistan so they can build schools, highways, government buildings, parks, etc?

news flash: we've given aid to afghanistan, 'built schools, highways, gov't buildings, parks, etc' - we
just needed the taliban off their perch first.

Then why is President Karzai still pleading for billions in aid?

Why are the Taliban and Al Qaeda still attacking and killing coalition troops in Afghanistan?

Why are warlords still ruling parts of the country?

as for iran, you could have a legion of hardcore mullahs as your new friends just for proposing the idea.

Xenophobia is easily cured:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=52&threadid=1304573&highlight_key=y&keyword1=iranians

Only this will curb terrorist attacks in our country. Dropping bombs on little babies does nothing but stirs up the anger among young Arab men. We should be giving them a better life. Let?s take them out of the extreme poverty that they face daily and let?s make their lives more enjoyable.

giving money to third world autocrats will curb terrorist attacks ? you are lodged in the wrong
decade under the haze of a wrongheaded philosophy long proven bankrupt. throwing money
at a problem is just so . . . liberal. the neocons are more effective with their gasoline.

I agree that throwing money at the problem is not a cure. However, working with the governments of those countries to foster democracy from within via diplomatic measures will do much more good.

Yeah, we'll work with the oppressive governments, using diplomacy, to get the governments to throw themselves out of power. Yeah, that sounds like a really great plan that is guaranteed to work everywhere. Why didn't we think of this before?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: steeplerot
No Klixxer I think it's more like they think America's sh1t does not stink and we can do whatever we wish for whatever reasons/lies our fearful leader the tells them.
Blind nationalism wheee just like 1939!
How about an anschluss? Canada anyone? or How about Colombia? Lots of coke there perfect for washing down all the Afgani heroin while driving that big SUV on iraqi oil.

I REALLY wish you wouldn't use Nazi remarks, not because i live in Germany atm but because of other reasons, my grandparents fled Hitler so i don't like the comparison.

I really wish Hitler and Nazis wouldn't be so taboo. To learn from the past we need to talk about it. And often that means analogizing to the past. If everyone's pet taboo was hidden from discussion, we would have nothing left to talk about.

Ok, i am not comfortable with the discussion and it would as, arsbanned pointed out invoke Godwins law, which means that you loose by default.

What many here don't understand is that i adhere to the basic rules of Usenet, that means i have lurked for some time and it also means that i apply the laws of usenet. Something created before your kiddie @ss was even born.

I don't believe in Godwin's Law here. I believe that history is relevant and we should never forget it.

Also, don't call people 'kiddie @ss' when you're only 22 years old. I used to think that you were older, but now that I know that you're 22, it's a little funny when someone that is younger than me calls me a kid. I wouldn't even call anyone a kid since it's the typical 'Internet insult' to call someone a child and act as if they are younger than you.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Kappo

Originally posted by: Klixxer
I think that most of you don't get it, they don't want your money and they don't want you there either, that is what these terrorists are fighting for, not against freedom, christianity or anything else, they simply don't want you there. If Europe were meddling with the leadership of the states, wouldn't you be a bit pissed too?

ROFLMAO you havent heard very many public statements by Al-Q have you? Thier "mission" is to convert the entire world into muslim radicals. If you do not hold thier beliefs then you are "an infadel and must die". Same thing with the palastinians. They will not be happy until every US citizen and and Isralie is dead. They have stated this MANY times.

That's interesting because I've heard Osama Bin Laden himself said that 9/11 is about US involvement in the middle east and the support for Israel. He could have said something about converting the entire world but he didn't.

We could also find Americans who want every Muslim dead but that doesn't make it official US policy.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: tec699
Before anyone flames me I'm not talking about giving them money so they can buy weapons to attack us and other countries. What I'd like to see is the American government giving money to countries like Iran and Afghanistan so they can build schools, highways, government buildings, parks, etc?

Only this will curb terrorist attacks in our country. Dropping bombs on little babies does nothing but stirs up the anger among young Arab men. We should be giving them a better life. Let?s take them out of the extreme poverty that they face daily and let?s make their lives more enjoyable.

I think this could work. Maybe we could have a special tax that would go to the countries that are more prone to engage in terrorist activity? Unless we do something I fear that the US will have to endure more destruction from the hands of people like Bin Laden.

How would the money we give go directly to schools, highways, etc?

I don't think that the US can give enough money to satisfy everyone there anyways. Your idea is much too idealistic.

 

[kylebisme]

besides it would just be promoting terroism as people would see it as an effective way to get money. the thing to do is get the hell out of their buisness and keep it that way. sure, they will contenue to resent us for what has already been done, but we just need to keep a strong defence and eventualy the agression will fade.

 

[Kappo]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Kappo

Originally posted by: Klixxer
I think that most of you don't get it, they don't want your money and they don't want you there either, that is what these terrorists are fighting for, not against freedom, christianity or anything else, they simply don't want you there. If Europe were meddling with the leadership of the states, wouldn't you be a bit pissed too?

ROFLMAO you havent heard very many public statements by Al-Q have you? Thier "mission" is to convert the entire world into muslim radicals. If you do not hold thier beliefs then you are "an infadel and must die". Same thing with the palastinians. They will not be happy until every US citizen and and Isralie is dead. They have stated this MANY times.

That's interesting because I've heard Osama Bin Laden himself said that 9/11 is about US involvement in the middle east and the support for Israel. He could have said something about converting the entire world but he didn't.

We could also find Americans who want every Muslim dead but that doesn't make it official US policy.

First,

Really? Find a group of people who activly hunt and kill Muslims that live in the US. If you manage to find a "group" of 2 or 3 people, please show me where they a) influence the government, b) are not removed from society as they appear, c) declare war on an entire system of government. They are on the side of the palastinians, and that is who I was saying that is looking for a "muslim world". Aside from that, you believe that Bin Laden or ANY terrorist for that matter, is going to reveal thier total intent on anything?

If you are even REMOTLY suggesting that the entire government of the entire middle east is not driven by religion then you need to look again. Everything they do is based around thier religious beliefs. Jihad is good example.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: steeplerot
No Klixxer I think it's more like they think America's sh1t does not stink and we can do whatever we wish for whatever reasons/lies our fearful leader the tells them.
Blind nationalism wheee just like 1939!
How about an anschluss? Canada anyone? or How about Colombia? Lots of coke there perfect for washing down all the Afgani heroin while driving that big SUV on iraqi oil.

I REALLY wish you wouldn't use Nazi remarks, not because i live in Germany atm but because of other reasons, my grandparents fled Hitler so i don't like the comparison.

I really wish Hitler and Nazis wouldn't be so taboo. To learn from the past we need to talk about it. And often that means analogizing to the past. If everyone's pet taboo was hidden from discussion, we would have nothing left to talk about.

Ok, i am not comfortable with the discussion and it would as, arsbanned pointed out invoke Godwins law, which means that you loose by default.

What many here don't understand is that i adhere to the basic rules of Usenet, that means i have lurked for some time and it also means that i apply the laws of usenet. Something created before your kiddie @ss was even born.

I don't believe in Godwin's Law here. I believe that history is relevant and we should never forget it.

Also, don't call people 'kiddie @ss' when you're only 22 years old. I used to think that you were older, but now that I know that you're 22, it's a little funny when someone that is younger than me calls me a kid. I wouldn't even call anyone a kid since it's the typical 'Internet insult' to call someone a child and act as if they are younger than you.

22+12 is what? what is the matter with you numbnuts, i know where you got it from, he felixdekat started working when he was 12 and has worked for 22 years and i am the same age 12+22=?

Change your sig to "the plural of mongoose is morons."

Hey i don't believe in any laws, does not mean that i should not follow them, does it?

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: steeplerot
No Klixxer I think it's more like they think America's sh1t does not stink and we can do whatever we wish for whatever reasons/lies our fearful leader the tells them.
Blind nationalism wheee just like 1939!
How about an anschluss? Canada anyone? or How about Colombia? Lots of coke there perfect for washing down all the Afgani heroin while driving that big SUV on iraqi oil.

I REALLY wish you wouldn't use Nazi remarks, not because i live in Germany atm but because of other reasons, my grandparents fled Hitler so i don't like the comparison.

I really wish Hitler and Nazis wouldn't be so taboo. To learn from the past we need to talk about it. And often that means analogizing to the past. If everyone's pet taboo was hidden from discussion, we would have nothing left to talk about.

Ok, i am not comfortable with the discussion and it would as, arsbanned pointed out invoke Godwins law, which means that you loose by default.

What many here don't understand is that i adhere to the basic rules of Usenet, that means i have lurked for some time and it also means that i apply the laws of usenet. Something created before your kiddie @ss was even born.

I don't believe in Godwin's Law here. I believe that history is relevant and we should never forget it.

Also, don't call people 'kiddie @ss' when you're only 22 years old. I used to think that you were older, but now that I know that you're 22, it's a little funny when someone that is younger than me calls me a kid. I wouldn't even call anyone a kid since it's the typical 'Internet insult' to call someone a child and act as if they are younger than you.

22+12 is what? what is the matter with you numbnuts, i know where you got it from, he felixdekat started working when he was 12 and has worked for 22 years and i am the same age 12+22=?

Change your sig to "the plural of mongoose is morons."

Hey i don't believe in any laws, does not mean that i should not follow them, does it?

I find it hard to believe that a 34 year old would use the word 'numbnuts'. However, I guess I am dealing with someone with a likely severe emotional and psychological condition.

Godwin's Law is a made up law. It's something that YOU use to try to run away from arguments. It has no official acknowledgement anywhere.

As the Anandtech moderators have called you a 'buttmunch' and 'are you related to Francis, the talking ass?' after theatening to ban you for being an idiot...get your anger under control.

At least this time when you attempted to insult another's intelligence, you managed to actually spell the insult correctly. Our little klixxy is growing up!