We don't need another King George

[TheAdvocate]

Time Magazine

My opinion on this isn't partisan, but I will admit that I'm indepedent minded and a frequent critic of W. This is a ridiculously insane power grab and it scares me that it's not getting more attention. The King reference is supposed to be a joke - but it's really not much of a stretch.

 

[lozina]

That is simply despicable.

Absolutely no one in their right mind can defend against that example provided with McCain's law.

<puke>

 

[Harvey]

I hope this isn't the first time you're waking up to the Bushwhackos' obvious power grab. The concluding paragraph of your linked article is pretty clear about what many of us have known was happening for years. :|

As Graham shows, this isn't a Republican-Democrat issue. It's a very basic one. A President, Democrat or Republican, has every right to act unilaterally at times to defend the country. But a democracy cannot work if the person who is deputed to execute the laws exempts himself from them when he feels like it. Forget the imperial presidency. This is more like a monarchical one. America began by rejecting the claims of one King George. It's disturbing to think we may now be quietly installing a second one.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Harvey
I hope this isn't the first time you're waking up to the Bushwhacko's obvious power grab. The concluding paragraph of your linked article is pretty clear about what many of us have known was happening for years. :|

As Graham shows, this isn't a Republican-Democrat issue. It's a very basic one. A President, Democrat or Republican, has every right to act unilaterally at times to defend the country. But a democracy cannot work if the person who is deputed to execute the laws exempts himself from them when he feels like it. Forget the imperial presidency. This is more like a monarchical one. America began by rejecting the claims of one King George. It's disturbing to think we may now be quietly installing a second one.

It isn't W that frightens me, it's the Wizard behind the curtain thinking that he can pull this off without the public catching on. The boldness is sobering, to say the least.

 

[Czar]

good read

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: Harvey
I hope this isn't the first time you're waking up to the Bushwhacko's obvious power grab. The concluding paragraph of your linked article is pretty clear about what many of us have known was happening for years. :|

As Graham shows, this isn't a Republican-Democrat issue. It's a very basic one. A President, Democrat or Republican, has every right to act unilaterally at times to defend the country. But a democracy cannot work if the person who is deputed to execute the laws exempts himself from them when he feels like it. Forget the imperial presidency. This is more like a monarchical one. America began by rejecting the claims of one King George. It's disturbing to think we may now be quietly installing a second one.

It isn't W that frightens me, it's the Wizard behind the curtain thinking that he can pull this off without the public catching on. The boldness is sobering, to say the least.

I agree completely, this is just an opening of the door. If something isn't done about these power grabs the next administration is going to be worse and so on...

 

[maddogchen]

So whats the plan? what are you going to do about it?

 

[lozina]

It is clear that the division in our society right now with the gravitation towards opposite poles of the political spectrum is what really helps this happen.

Alot of people will ready this article and say "Oh look more Bush bashing" and completely dismiss it.

Then maybe a Democrat comes in office and continues the trend yet makes it worse. We'll have a similar article pointing this out and then another crowd "Oh look more <democrat leader> bashing, and completely dismiss it.

and so it goes ... until our children are pledging to a large portrait of the American Emperor instead of the American flag

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: maddogchen
So whats the plan? what are you going to do about it?

Honestly, great question, even if you were being sarcastic. I think I can do two things about it, one immediately, and one in the future:

1. Spread the word (hence my post here and three other forums)

2. Vote

I think it's my duty to do both as an American.

 

[kage69]

Great article, and pretty much a spot-on assessment of definetly one of the more troubling aspects of this admin. 'Honor and dignity' was what they sold, but arrogance and hypocrisy was delivered. I'm so ashamed of these crooks who have defiled my country.


Chimp, it's not just a peiece of paper. :|



Can you imagine how we look to our allies, harping constantly on the virtues of democracy and freedom - even willing to sacrifice our own for them, while simultaneously subverting both at home? :Q

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: maddogchen
So whats the plan? what are you going to do about it?

Honestly, great question, even if you were being sarcastic. I think I can do two things about it, one immediately, and one in the future:

1. Spread the word (hence my post here and three other forums)

2. Vote

I think it's my duty to do both as an American.

Count me in. I can't wait for the November elections to express my displeasure.

500??!!?? LOL, that's real leadership by example. Do as I say, not as I do, typical Neocons at work.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: lozina
It is clear that the division in our society right now with the gravitation towards opposite poles of the political spectrum is what really helps this happen.

Alot of people will ready this article and say "Oh look more Bush bashing" and completely dismiss it.

Then maybe a Democrat comes in office and continues the trend yet makes it worse. We'll have a similar article pointing this out and then another crowd "Oh look more <democrat leader> bashing, and completely dismiss it.

and so it goes ... until our children are pledging to a large portrait of the American Emperor instead of the American flag

I'm not the first person to have said this, but the polarization of America is the worst thing to happen to this country in decades. Specifically, the grace and ease, and dexterity with which the thinktanks on both sides manipulate the media and public opinion on one hand, while deftly obscuring or burying the truth with the other. Welcome to the height of the spin dynasty. The masters of the art are making their play for long term power.

They've figured out the classic line from MiB - a person is smart, people are dumb. Find a hotbutton issue to rally the opposing throngs to, and they're as easy as cattle to manipulate... right to the slaughter. I wish the age of "question everything" and "think for yourself" would re-emerge. Instead, those philosophies are greeted with the "why do you hate america" a/k/a "get in line" mantra these days, and I'm not sure it would be any different with the dems in power.

 

[kage69]

So whats the plan? what are you going to do about it?

I love this kind of response. The immediate "no, this isn't the issue, it's the reaction to it that's the issue!" Nevermind this admin fires generals and intelligence officials for having contrary opinions, let's see what a guy in a online forum can personally do to talk them out of their actions! :laugh:






Does this mean you have nothing to comment on in regards to the article itself?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: lozina
It is clear that the division in our society right now with the gravitation towards opposite poles of the political spectrum is what really helps this happen.

Alot of people will ready this article and say "Oh look more Bush bashing" and completely dismiss it.

Then maybe a Democrat comes in office and continues the trend yet makes it worse. We'll have a similar article pointing this out and then another crowd "Oh look more <democrat leader> bashing, and completely dismiss it.

and so it goes ... until our children are pledging to a large portrait of the American Emperor instead of the American flag

I'm not the first person to have said this, but the polarization of America is the worst thing to happen to this country in decades. Specifically, the grace and ease, and dexterity with which the thinktanks on both sides manipulate the media and public opinion on one hand, while deftly obscuring or burying the truth with the other. Welcome to the height of the spin dynasty. The masters of the art are making their play for long term power.

They've figured out the classic line from MiB - a person is smart, people are dumb. Find a hotbutton issue to rally the opposing throngs to, and they're as easy as cattle to manipulate... right to the slaughter. I wish the age of "question everything" and "think for yourself" would re-emerge. Instead, those philosophies are greeted with the "why do you hate america" a/k/a "get in line" mantra these days, and I'm not sure it would be any different with the dems in power.

I am still not buying in the division of America crap we hear from the media.
I am willing to bet this deep division is only represented in 5% of our population tops. The other 95% can give two shats what those 5% think and feel.

 

[techs]

This has been an ongoing issue I have raised before.
This issue is the one that is more important than any other which will face Alito when he hits the Supreme Court.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: lozina
It is clear that the division in our society right now with the gravitation towards opposite poles of the political spectrum is what really helps this happen.

Alot of people will ready this article and say "Oh look more Bush bashing" and completely dismiss it.

Then maybe a Democrat comes in office and continues the trend yet makes it worse. We'll have a similar article pointing this out and then another crowd "Oh look more <democrat leader> bashing, and completely dismiss it.

and so it goes ... until our children are pledging to a large portrait of the American Emperor instead of the American flag

I'm not the first person to have said this, but the polarization of America is the worst thing to happen to this country in decades. Specifically, the grace and ease, and dexterity with which the thinktanks on both sides manipulate the media and public opinion on one hand, while deftly obscuring or burying the truth with the other. Welcome to the height of the spin dynasty. The masters of the art are making their play for long term power.

They've figured out the classic line from MiB - a person is smart, people are dumb. Find a hotbutton issue to rally the opposing throngs to, and they're as easy as cattle to manipulate... right to the slaughter. I wish the age of "question everything" and "think for yourself" would re-emerge. Instead, those philosophies are greeted with the "why do you hate america" a/k/a "get in line" mantra these days, and I'm not sure it would be any different with the dems in power.

Thank you for an excellent post and I would just like to add that with all the recent shrilling done by Dems like H. Clinton, I don't know if the Dems would do any better in power either. All I know is that the current political landscape needs a whole lot of change. And I wont say im scared, but I will say I am concerned about the future of our supreme court, and I hope we are nominating the right people into our most prestigous and powerful Court (Roberts and Alito)

sorry to stray off topic a bit.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Genx87


I am still not buying in the division of America crap we hear from the media.
I am willing to bet this deep division is only represented in 5% of our population tops. The other 95% can give two shats what those 5% think and feel.

And you're part of that 5%, right?

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Genx87

I am still not buying in the division of America crap we hear from the media.
I am willing to bet this deep division is only represented in 5% of our population tops. The other 95% can give two shats what those 5% think and feel.

Good point. I agree that 95% arent hardliners tuned into Rush or whatever, but the genious of the philosophy is that a successfully black and white painted question forces fence sitters (who, IMO, are what keeps the extremes honest) to take a position that they may not be entirely comfortable with.

Back on topic, the hype around those issues obscures the real power plays such as this one. This one scares me because it's a naked reach for executive branch supremacy over all. I hope the USSC drops the hammer.

 

[Meuge]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: lozina
It is clear that the division in our society right now with the gravitation towards opposite poles of the political spectrum is what really helps this happen.

Alot of people will ready this article and say "Oh look more Bush bashing" and completely dismiss it.

Then maybe a Democrat comes in office and continues the trend yet makes it worse. We'll have a similar article pointing this out and then another crowd "Oh look more <democrat leader> bashing, and completely dismiss it.

and so it goes ... until our children are pledging to a large portrait of the American Emperor instead of the American flag

I'm not the first person to have said this, but the polarization of America is the worst thing to happen to this country in decades. Specifically, the grace and ease, and dexterity with which the thinktanks on both sides manipulate the media and public opinion on one hand, while deftly obscuring or burying the truth with the other. Welcome to the height of the spin dynasty. The masters of the art are making their play for long term power.

They've figured out the classic line from MiB - a person is smart, people are dumb. Find a hotbutton issue to rally the opposing throngs to, and they're as easy as cattle to manipulate... right to the slaughter. I wish the age of "question everything" and "think for yourself" would re-emerge. Instead, those philosophies are greeted with the "why do you hate america" a/k/a "get in line" mantra these days, and I'm not sure it would be any different with the dems in power.

I am still not buying in the division of America crap we hear from the media.
I am willing to bet this deep division is only represented in 5% of our population tops. The other 95% can give two shats what those 5% think and feel.

I think you have your numbers reversed.

 

[PELarson]

I for one believe that our George the younger and George III share the same mental stability. Know history and know the answer.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: maddogchen
So whats the plan? what are you going to do about it?

Honestly, great question, even if you were being sarcastic. I think I can do two things about it, one immediately, and one in the future:

1. Spread the word (hence my post here and three other forums)

2. Vote

I think it's my duty to do both as an American.

Actually, this issue has been raised in at least two other threads, but thanks for raising it again. There's no such thing as too much opposition is the face of prosepective tyranny.

But merely spreading the word and/or voting won't solve this problem. Who's to say the next President - be he/she Democrat or Republican - won't do exactly the same thing?

No, the only solution to a President who breaks the law is to prosecute, convict, and sentence him and all of his confederates. And frankly - although I'm loathe to suggest Amendments to the Constitution - here's one I think might be a very good idea:

The President's power to pardon shall not be available to excuse his own actual or potential crimes and misdemeanors. Nor shall a Presidential pardon be available to excuse crimes and misdemeanors that actually or potentially were committed by others to further that President's agenda while in office. Nor shall the pardon of any subsequent President be available to excuse actual or potential crimes and misdemeanors by any previous President, or those of others acting to further that previous President's agenda while in office, until at least 10 years have passed since that previous President has left office.

My greatest worry is that this cabal will continue its power grab - using all the tricks of secrecy, deception, and rhetoric at its disposal - until it is run to ground by overwhelming legal force. And then, in the face of a mountain of indictments, the President will simply utter, "I pardon everyone."

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: shira

The President's power to pardon shall not be available to excuse his own actual or potential crimes and misdemeanors. Nor shall a Presidential pardon be available to excuse crimes and misdemeanors that actually or potentially were committed by others to further that President's agenda while in office. Nor shall the pardon of any subsequent President be available to excuse actual or potential crimes and misdemeanors by any previous President, or those of others acting to further that previous President's agenda while in office, until at least 10 years have passed since that previous President has left office.

My greatest worry is that this cabal will continue its power grab - using all the tricks of secrecy, deception, and rhetoric at its disposal - until it is run to ground by overwhelming legal force. And then, in the face of a mountain of indictments, the President will simply utter, "I pardon everyone."

I hate to bring this up but this is exactly what Clinton did with Susan McDougal in the Whitewater case. She refused to testify against the president and landed herself in jail partly because of it. Clinton in his last days pardoned a person who was in contempt of court for refusing to testify against him. I think presidential pardons are an abuse of power and always have been.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I hate to bring this up but this is exactly what Clinton did with Susan McDougal in the Whitewater case. She refused to testify against the president and landed herself in jail partly because of it. Clinton in his last days pardoned a person who was in contempt of court for refusing to testify against him. I think presidential pardons are an abuse of power and always have been.

You should hate to bring this up. Relevance = -100, unless you're just trying to make a stronger case for keeping executive actions in compliance with the law, regardless of who's in office.

 

[TheAdvocate]

I fail to see a criminal act here, and while I detest the neocon agenda and most every political stance and action this administration has taken, I don't care for the partisanship either.

This seems like a matter for the USSC to handle, but the case, and particularly a party with irrefutable standing, needs to be found to bring the issue before them.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Genx87
I hate to bring this up but this is exactly what Clinton did with Susan McDougal in the Whitewater case. She refused to testify against the president and landed herself in jail partly because of it. Clinton in his last days pardoned a person who was in contempt of court for refusing to testify against him. I think presidential pardons are an abuse of power and always have been.

You should hate to bring this up. Relevance = -100, unless you're just trying to make a stronger case for keeping executive actions in compliance with the law, regardless of who's in office.

It is a direct response to the above poster.
This is an example of what presidential pardons can do and why I think they are a ridiculous option for any president.