"we don't have a way to charge you"

[Matt1970]

If you mean 'best' by the types of advanced procedures, then probably. If you mean best because of who and what it covers or the price of services, not a chance.

For all of the hoopla about how bad Canada's system, I have yet to find a Canadian (I spent 3 months there) who would trade theirs for ours. Hell, they literally laugh at the US system.

I would also go so far as to say we have the best doctors in the world too. As far as price, hell no. But I don't think eliminating private insurance is going to be the magical solution everyone thinks it is. True to form our government will set up more bureaucracies than we can shake a stick at, we seem to be good at that, and eliminate any saving we may have obtained. There isn't many things our government does with much efficiency. All we will be doing is replacing insurance with taxes.

 

[Engineer]

I would also go so far as to say we have the best doctors in the world too. As far as price, hell no. But I don't think eliminating private insurance is going to be the magical solution everyone thinks it is. True to form our government will set up more bureaucracies than we can shake a stick at, we seem to be good at that, and eliminate any saving we may have obtained. There isn't many things our government does with much efficiency. All we will be doing is replacing insurance with taxes.

So what's the alternative especially when wages in this country are going down the tubes and the jobs being created don't pay enough to buy insurance (nor do they offer insurance)?

I've heard all to often that there are too many people who 'don't have any skin in the game' when it comes to taxes. I guess setting up some sort of system where EVERYONE pays (sales taxes, etc) would be not good even though the people at the bottom receiving services would now have skin in the game?

As for bureaucracies, it seems the insurance companies do a fine job especially in creating as many practices as they can to deny services and payments.

 

[justoh]

There is a lot to be said for living in a country that has a social net that protects people. Poor don't get as poor if you know what I mean. Our healthcare, welfare (going down hill) systems might be one of the reasons we have less crime and much less prisoners as a percentage. We have about 15,000 in prison and America has 2 million prisoners? I just googled that... hard to believe.

And it's not cheap. (NY) City’s Annual Cost Per Inmate Is $168,000, Study Finds

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/n...-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html?_r=0

unusually high, but the average cost is still around 32k.

Hard to say how much of it is economically driven, but crime sure seems lower in places where people aren't as desperate (any other industrialized nation). Americans would rather spend the money on prisons than welfare for some reason.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2014/05/10-crime-facts

Across all types of personal crimes, victimization rates are significantly higher for individuals living in low-income households, as shown in figure 2. In 2008, the latest year for which data are available, the victimization rate for all personal crimes among individuals with family incomes of less than $15,000 was over three times the rate of those with family incomes of $75,000 or more (DOJ 2010a)

little off topic

 

[Matt1970]

So what's the alternative especially when wages in this country are going down the tubes and the jobs being created don't pay enough to buy insurance (nor do they offer insurance)?

I've heard all to often that there are too many people who 'don't have any skin in the game' when it comes to taxes. I guess setting up some sort of system where EVERYONE pays (sales taxes, etc) would be not good even though the people at the bottom receiving services would now have skin in the game?

As for bureaucracies, it seems the insurance companies do a fine job especially in creating as many practices as they can to deny services and payments.

A sales tax increase like Canada did may well be a step in the right direction but we need to stop hemorrhaging money and jobs overseas. Blame it on business or consumer greed but if we can't get that under control than anything we do is mere Band-Aid on the real problem.

 

[Matt1970]

And it's not cheap. (NY) City’s Annual Cost Per Inmate Is $168,000, Study Finds

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/n...-inmate-is-nearly-168000-study-says.html?_r=0

unusually high, but the average cost is still around 32k.

Hard to say how much of it is economically driven, but crime sure seems lower in places where people aren't as desperate (any other industrialized nation). Americans would rather spend the money on prisons than welfare for some reason.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2014/05/10-crime-facts



little off topic

$168,000 per inmate? Are you f-ing kidding me? This is more proof having our government run healthcare is not going to cut costs one iota.

 

[Engineer]

$168,000 per inmate? Are you f-ing kidding me? This is more proof having our government run healthcare is not going to cut costs one iota.

Just think of how much money we could save if we privatized the military then.

 

[Matt1970]

Just think of how much money we could save if we privatized the military then.

We could just cut it in half and be fine with it. Only problem is a mere 5% cut made Obama go on the doom and gloom tour crying about all the jobs that would be lost. Neither side will cut military spending.

 

[Victorian Gray]

It has nothing to do with the fact that we have the best healthcare in the world?

I can play 10 minute expert on the internet too.

Ranked 37 in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

last of 7 measured

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub.../2010/jun/us-ranks-last-among-seven-countries

Number 46 of 48

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-efficient-health-care-countries

ranked last of 17

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ankings-of-17-nations-us-is-dead-last/267045/

 

[DrPizza]

Did you not see my post with the study that found the average wait time for orthopedic surgery reached 39.6 weeks?

Gee, I'd take that. I went to the orthopedic surgeon, because I had 3 injuries within weeks of each other to my knee. It was buckled inward sideways. Something tore. I tried to be a tough guy and live with the pain, but gave up. Surgeon one: "it's arthritis, nothing you can do but take pain medicine." Surgeon #2 second opinion: I'm not allowed to do an MRI from your insurance (pretty close to a cadillac policy) - you have to do a couple months of physical therapy first. Physical therapist on day 1: "sigh. You probably need surgery." So, here I am, if I do a lot of walking, my knee swells up. MRI's still not happening. (It's been over a year now.)


edit: dammit. What I meant to say was, OP, where'd you go fishing? What lake(s)? Sounds like a great time. Any problems with hauling a boat over the border? Does it cost more to do that?

 

[Pens1566]

Google is a much better alternative if you know how to discern between actual information and targeted propaganda.

Look at who he was suggesting it to.

 

[Matt1970]

I can play 10 minute expert on the internet too.

Ranked 37 in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

last of 7 measured

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/pub.../2010/jun/us-ranks-last-among-seven-countries

Number 46 of 48

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-efficient-health-care-countries

ranked last of 17

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ankings-of-17-nations-us-is-dead-last/267045/

The first one has 50% of the score determined by distribution or equality and fair financial contribution. With our cost per capita I can't imagine us rankling very high on that one. Note the criticism: "In over a decade of discussion and controversy over the WHO Ranking of 2000, there is still no consensus about how an objective world health system ranking should be compiled. Indeed, the 2000 results have proved so controversial that the WHO declined to rank countries in their World Health Reports since 2010" The second one has 2 out of 5 categories based on cost. Your 3rd one has 2 out of 3 categories based on cost and the last one seems to focus more on our living habits. If we rank so bad then why do all the best doctors want to come practice here and patients from all around the world want to be treated here?

 

[Victorian Gray]

The first one has 50% of the score determined by distribution or equality and fair financial contribution. With our cost per capita I can't imagine us rankling very high on that one. Note the criticism: "In over a decade of discussion and controversy over the WHO Ranking of 2000, there is still no consensus about how an objective world health system ranking should be compiled. Indeed, the 2000 results have proved so controversial that the WHO declined to rank countries in their World Health Reports since 2010" The second one has 2 out of 5 categories based on cost. Your 3rd one has 2 out of 3 categories based on cost and the last one seems to focus more on our living habits. If we rank so bad then why do all the best doctors want to come practice here and patients from all around the world want to be treated here?

See, now you are a 10 minute expert as well. Congratulations and may it bring you much joy.

 

[Matt1970]

See, now you are a 10 minute expert as well. Congratulations and may it bring you much joy.

I don't think you even took the time to see how they compiled their rankings which is right at the bottom of the pages you linked to. How you could do an in-depth study at a library is beyond me.

 

[Engineer]

The first one has 50% of the score determined by distribution or equality and fair financial contribution. With our cost per capita I can't imagine us rankling very high on that one.

I think that's a good indicator of how bad our system is. We may have the best treatments or equipment but if a large percentage of people can't use it, it's of no use except to those that can afford it, including those from the rest of the world.

Face it, those in the middle are paying for most everyone else, if they have insurance. (Yes, the rich pay too but there are far fewer them to pick up the slack).

#1: Those at the bottom get Medicaid but mostly get essential services and not real treatment. Too many people use the ER as a Dr. office. Those costs are passed along to us in the form of taxes.

#2: Those in the middle without insurance go to the hospital and get treatment and then can't/won't pay and those costs are not absorbed but passed on to us, the paying customer. Hospitals aren't going to eat it. That's the reason a bandaid costs $20 at a hospital.

#3: Those of us in the middle class that have insurance pay high rates and routinely get denied or lowered coverages. We have to not only pay for the insurance (with help from our employer) but have to pay for all of the people in the doctor's offices / hospital billing departments to process the insurance claims. Then, we pay the taxes for #1 and the remaining balances from #2.

Looks like those paying with insurance are paying the entire system. Talk about no skin in the game for many?

 

[Victorian Gray]

I don't think you even took the time to see how they compiled their rankings which is right at the bottom of the pages you linked to. How you could do an in-depth study at a library is beyond me.

Aw damn, you're just too clever for me. You win the interwebs man. Enjoy it.

 

[Anubis]

Gee, I'd take that. I went to the orthopedic surgeon, because I had 3 injuries within weeks of each other to my knee. It was buckled inward sideways. Something tore. I tried to be a tough guy and live with the pain, but gave up. Surgeon one: "it's arthritis, nothing you can do but take pain medicine." Surgeon #2 second opinion: I'm not allowed to do an MRI from your insurance (pretty close to a cadillac policy) - you have to do a couple months of physical therapy first. Physical therapist on day 1: "sigh. You probably need surgery." So, here I am, if I do a lot of walking, my knee swells up. MRI's still not happening. (It's been over a year now.)

something seems wrong with that. where did you go?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Gee, I'd take that. I went to the orthopedic surgeon, because I had 3 injuries within weeks of each other to my knee. It was buckled inward sideways. Something tore. I tried to be a tough guy and live with the pain, but gave up. Surgeon one: "it's arthritis, nothing you can do but take pain medicine." Surgeon #2 second opinion: I'm not allowed to do an MRI from your insurance (pretty close to a cadillac policy) - you have to do a couple months of physical therapy first. Physical therapist on day 1: "sigh. You probably need surgery." So, here I am, if I do a lot of walking, my knee swells up. MRI's still not happening. (It's been over a year now.)


edit: dammit. What I meant to say was, OP, where'd you go fishing? What lake(s)? Sounds like a great time. Any problems with hauling a boat over the border? Does it cost more to do that?

I don't understand the difference between what you have and what I have but I get xrays immediately and have had MRI/Catscans within a week of the specialist ordering them. I'm currently waiting to get knee replacement surgery, not due to not being able to get the surgery but waiting until I can get Short Term Disability again as I'm already maxed out for the year. I plan on getting the surgery the last week of December so I can start Short Term Disability in January.

 

[Northern Lawn]

I plan on getting the surgery the last week of December so I can start Short Term Disability in January.

I need an ankle replacement and I sure wish I could pick the time, I'd do it in a slow season like winter but here in Canada I'm not sure I can narrow it down to a year even. But at least it's free.

 

[Zebo]

Gee, I'd take that. I went to the orthopedic surgeon, because I had 3 injuries within weeks of each other to my knee. It was buckled inward sideways. Something tore. I tried to be a tough guy and live with the pain, but gave up. Surgeon one: "it's arthritis, nothing you can do but take pain medicine." Surgeon #2 second opinion: I'm not allowed to do an MRI from your insurance (pretty close to a cadillac policy) - you have to do a couple months of physical therapy first. Physical therapist on day 1: "sigh. You probably need surgery." So, here I am, if I do a lot of walking, my knee swells up. MRI's still not happening. (It's been over a year now.)


edit: dammit. What I meant to say was, OP, where'd you go fishing? What lake(s)? Sounds like a great time. Any problems with hauling a boat over the border? Does it cost more to do that?

There are no problems if you choose to do so - but I leave my boats at home. Leave food at home. Leave camp gear at home. And we buy the all inclusive package with boats, bait, three squares a day and cabins with maid services. Just way to fly imo. All I bring is poles (and firearms in hunting season). This way it's all their problem not mine. If you own a boat you know what I mean lol. Lake is Eagle lake in Ont. It's pretty affordable ~$200-$1500 a week depending on package. All the way from just bringing your own RV and boat and hook up there to all inclusive and everything in between.

Guy who said Canada pay more taxes than US. Thats not true. The marginal rates are lower and effective is higher in US since we are "taxed" privately on back end for services they get with their tax monies such as Health Care and education. This military/security machine we got is very expensive and they dont have. Simple Math. TANSTAAFL. And the .mil is the difference.
http://www.investopedia.com/financi...ans-really-pay-more-taxes-than-americans.aspx

For example a top school like McGill/University of Toronto is 6K a year while Harvard/MIT/Stanford is 50K. I pay $1173 a month insurance they don't.

If I could stand cold I'd have no problems moving to Canada on a investor visa. I already checked it out thoroughly and stories you hear are Fox propaganda. EU is another story though. Canada is not EU.

 

[Zebo]

There is a lot to be said for living in a country that has a social net that protects people. Poor don't get as poor if you know what I mean. Our healthcare, welfare (going down hill) systems might be one of the reasons we have less crime and much less prisoners as a percentage. We have about 15,000 in prison and America has 2 million prisoners? I just googled that... hard to believe.

The people who have it rough are working poor in US IMO. the $10-$12 a hour ppl who dont get all the govt assistance like housing, food, medical to really poor do get. Canada seems to pay lower skilled ppl higher than US. Like I met a carpenter who makes $38 hour + $140 a day perdeim. Union. Canada has over 30% union workforce US ~10% and they are mostly govt workers.

US is becoming a win big lose big society. More akin to Mexico than Canada. Perhaps we should start comparisons south of the border not north.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Guy who said Canada pay more taxes than US. Thats not true.

I'll take my colleagues word on this, he made $26k less than I did last year yet paid $8k more in taxes I did.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Like I met a carpenter who makes $38 hour + $140 a day perdeim.

You do realize that perdiem is taxed the same as income...right??