"We can refuse service for any reason" -> NOPE according to the appeals Court

[Newell Steamer]

Government is the one fucking you up, Newell, not me.

-John

No.

Government pushes for equality. People like you push for persecution, bigotry and harm to those you do not like and view as being lesser.

Truth be told, people like you are the lesser creed of this nation; you hide behind you own interpretation of religion and law to bash other human beings.

Grow a pair.

 

[Aegeon]

Is he refusing to bake them the cake or refusing to decorate the cake in a manner that signifies it is to be used in a gay wedding?

Its definitely the first one rather than the second one in this particular case.

 

[sportage]

Let's close this out by remembering Dairy Queen makes the best cakes ever.
And DQ isn't anal about servicing all the public equally.
So there.... Go sit on that mr homophobic bakery schmuck.

 

[Darwin333]

According to them, not allowing businesses to refuse service to gays is going to force those businesses under.

I think he is more worried that everyone is going to start catching the gay, eventually spreading to Europe, then Asia and finally to Africa and Australia eventually bringing an end to human civilization as a whole.

 

[bozack]

so the short of this thread is that if the government/courts don't intervene all bakeries everywhere in the United States will stop selling cakes to gay couples.

I get it, they want full acceptance within the communities and to force those businesses and individuals to either accept them or go out of business, I am torn though on it I feel purposely targeting said individuals/businesses to make them comply or feel the pain is something I agree with.....I am guessing in this limited case there were any number of other bakeries which would have made the cake, they just selected this one to make a statement/take them to court. A part of me feels that the market should decide in that gay couples would patronize other establishments and then those which don't support them are financially at a disadvantage due to lost business.

 

[werepossum]

What's to stop them from creating their own businesses? A lot of Mexican immigrants start businesses. A lot of Asian immigrants start businesses. Black men and gay men are capable of running their own businesses. Tim Cook is gay and he runs one of the largest companies in the world, Apple.

But is that really where we want America to go, with each group having its own dedicated businesses? Seems to me that we celebrated all men being born equal and our status as a unique melting pot, a nation with no culture except that we choose to embrace. Having shops that only sell to their own seems greatly at odds with that concept as well as equal accommodation and equal protection. For instance, every barbecue I've visited when I am in Columbus has been run by black folk. If they all decided not to sell to "my kind" I'd be pissed, and that's being in the majority.

so the short of this thread is that if the government/courts don't intervene all bakeries everywhere in the United States will stop selling cakes to gay couples.

I get it, they want full acceptance within the communities and to force those businesses and individuals to either accept them or go out of business, I am torn though on it I feel purposely targeting said individuals/businesses to make them comply or feel the pain is something I agree with.....I am guessing in this limited case there were any number of other bakeries which would have made the cake, they just selected this one to make a statement/take them to court. A part of me feels that the market should decide in that gay couples would patronize other establishments and then those which don't support them are financially at a disadvantage due to lost business.

I too am torn. Ideologically I prefer the least government intervention and the most individual freedom that is practical. Practically I recognize that social attitudes tend to cluster and thus if we accept that it's okay to refuse service because of something we dislike about a specific identifiable group regardless of the individual's behavior, everyone in that group has significantly less freedom than those outside that group. Surely that's worse than this government infringement on individual freedom?

One other thing - those of us on the right supposedly hate group identity politics and find it highly destructive. Refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple is nothing but group identity politics. The baker probably doesn't know the couple and they are probably good people. In fact, in at least one case the bakers actually knew the gay couple and had done business with them before, at least implying that the couple were good enough people to be customers. If nothing else, hate the sin but love the sinner. The baker can always pray for forgiveness. Personally I believe G-d is a big boy who has far more to concern Him than whether gay people marry - although I'll readily admit I'm far from an expert here. (Right now I imagine G-d is saying "Were what? Is that a person or a thing?")

 

[irishScott]

Geez, everything these days is the "death" of something. Whenever something liberal happens I see my southern relatives posting and re-posting that stupid Duck Dynasty guy's quote "If we don't turn to God at a pretty good clip, we're going to lose the United States of America." and meanwhile whenever something upholds a conservative position my liberal friends start posting comparisons to Western Europe ad-nauseum and screaming variations of "Wake up! People are dying and they don't have to because Europe and graphs America worse than Europe graphs!"

I find it interesting that the party claiming to know the soul of America is so out of touch, and the party that prides itself on its intellectual following and support of the sciences ("9X% of scientists are democrats!") has such trouble forming a logical argument.



As for this issue, yeah. Nothing died, law was upheld, a bigot is now publicly humiliated and forced to serve more customers and make more money as punishment. This is a pretty good outcome.

 

[brycejones]

You don't seem to understand that America was born on a principal of individual freedom.

Not serving some gay puff a cake.

-John

Another night of binge drinking? While I disagree with you on pretty much everything you say, I really do hope that at some point you'll face your problem and get to a meeting.

 

[umbrella39]

so the short of this thread is that if the government/courts don't intervene all bakeries everywhere in the United States will stop selling cakes to gay couples.

I get it, they want full acceptance within the communities and to force those businesses and individuals to either accept them or go out of business, I am torn though on it I feel purposely targeting said individuals/businesses to make them comply or feel the pain is something I agree with.....I am guessing in this limited case there were any number of other bakeries which would have made the cake, they just selected this one to make a statement/take them to court. A part of me feels that the market should decide in that gay couples would patronize other establishments and then those which don't support them are financially at a disadvantage due to lost business.

I get it, you are getting very emotional over this and resorting to logically fallacious arguments out of desperation...

 

[Spungo]

I should go to bakeries and try to get a cake that says "Death To America" on it. If the person working there refuses, I'll sue them to into the ground. They're discriminating against me because of my beliefs!!1

I just don't understand this extreme liberal mindset where I should be forced to serve people. If some guy comes in wanting a cake that says "Fags Burn In Hell," I should be within my right to tell him to fuck off. In liberal land, I would be forced by law to make that cake.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Fags burn in hell is the same as a wedding cake with two grooms on top or even a plain wedding cake without decoration that will end up being used at a gay wedding?

Better think that one over.

 

[umbrella39]

I should go to bakeries and try to get a cake that says "Death To America" on it. If the person working there refuses, I'll sue them to into the ground. They're discriminating against me because of my beliefs!!1

And you'd lose because you they aren't discriminating against you due to be a protected class, you are just an asshole. But have at it...

I just don't understand this extreme liberal mindset where I should be forced to serve people.

You are free to leave and find a country that embraces discrimination. The 14th amendment isn't a "liberal mindset."

If some guy comes in wanting a cake that says "Fags Burn In Hell," I should be within my right to tell him to fuck off. In liberal land, I would be forced by law to make that cake.

No... no you wouldn't. Again, the bigot in your inane scenario isn't a protected class.

Just get over it already. You are flailing at this point.

 

[ivwshane]

I should go to bakeries and try to get a cake that says "Death To America" on it. If the person working there refuses, I'll sue them to into the ground. They're discriminating against me because of my beliefs!!1

I just don't understand this extreme liberal mindset where I should be forced to serve people. If some guy comes in wanting a cake that says "Fags Burn In Hell," I should be within my right to tell him to fuck off. In liberal land, I would be forced by law to make that cake.

You appear not to understand the issue, perhaps it would be better for you to educate yourself on the subject before you make a bigger ass of yourself.

 

[werepossum]

And you'd lose because you they aren't discriminating against you due to be a protected class, you are just an asshole. But have at it...

You are free to leave and find a country that embraces discrimination. The 14th amendment isn't a "liberal mindset."

No... no you wouldn't. Again, the bigot in your inane scenario isn't a protected class.

Just get over it already. You are flailing at this point.

The bolded is also problematic though. We're back to "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." This is antithetical to the concept of America just as is allowing people to discriminate based on group identity. This is not a cut and dried thing; it has valid points on both sides.

Which is not to say I believe it's a toss-up. To me, making some individuals effectively second class citizens, so that people with at least the modest power of shopkeepers are free to treat them worse based on lawful activities and proclivities, is significantly worse than infringing on the shopkeepers' freedom. I'm just saying that there are valid points on both sides.

 

[bozack]

I get it, you are getting very emotional over this and resorting to logically fallacious arguments out of desperation...

I fail to see a one post reply as "very emotional", are you always delusional or is that just today?

And again, are you suggesting that all bakeries will immediately stop baking cakes for gay weddings unless the courts/government do not intervene?

 

[fskimospy]

so the short of this thread is that if the government/courts don't intervene all bakeries everywhere in the United States will stop selling cakes to gay couples.

No, it is that this bakery is violating public accommodation laws in this case, and there is no religious exemption from public accommodation laws.

I get it, they want full acceptance within the communities and to force those businesses and individuals to either accept them or go out of business, I am torn though on it I feel purposely targeting said individuals/businesses to make them comply or feel the pain is something I agree with.....I am guessing in this limited case there were any number of other bakeries which would have made the cake, they just selected this one to make a statement/take them to court. A part of me feels that the market should decide in that gay couples would patronize other establishments and then those which don't support them are financially at a disadvantage due to lost business.

That same argument could have been used in the south when laws of this type were originally passed.

It's a pretty simple principle. If you open your doors to the public you must serve the public equally. It's hardly an unreasonable requirement.

 

[fskimospy]

I should go to bakeries and try to get a cake that says "Death To America" on it. If the person working there refuses, I'll sue them to into the ground. They're discriminating against me because of my beliefs!!1

I just don't understand this extreme liberal mindset where I should be forced to serve people. If some guy comes in wanting a cake that says "Fags Burn In Hell," I should be within my right to tell him to fuck off. In liberal land, I would be forced by law to make that cake.

I think you should try this master plan and report back to us on how it goes. I'm sure with your airtight understanding of this issue you will be rolling in money in no time.

 

[Spungo]

You appear not to understand the issue, perhaps it would be better for you to educate yourself on the subject before you make a bigger ass of yourself.

You're saying religion is NOT a protect class? You're simply wrong. There's no way to sugar coat this.

Looks like other people have already tried the trolling I've suggested:
Muslim sues Abercrombie & Fitch over hijab - she won $5 million in that lawsuit.
UPS sued over no-beard policy

This is where ultra liberal policies lead. You're not allowed to have any standards whatsoever because some of them might offend someone. If I want a cake that says Happy 9/11 Day, you are required by law to make it for me. If you offend me or any of my weird beliefs, I can sue you into the ground. By law, my feelings are more important than your rights.

 

[fskimospy]

You're saying religion is NOT a protect class? You're simply wrong. There's no way to sugar coat this.

Looks like other people have already tried the trolling I've suggested:
Muslim sues Abercrombie & Fitch over hijab - she won $5 million in that lawsuit.
UPS sued over no-beard policy

This is where ultra liberal policies lead. You're not allowed to have any standards whatsoever because some of them might offend someone. If I want a cake that says Happy 9/11 Day, you are required by law to make it for me. If you offend me or any of my weird beliefs, I can sue you into the ground. By law, my feelings are more important than your rights.

What's the holdup then? You could already be well on your way to making millions.

Is it maybe that you know as well as we do that you'll be laughed out of court?

 

[CU]

Question, could a baker make and sale wedding cakes with only bride and groom cake toppers because they don't stock groom and groom cake toppers? Then in the bakers mine he made a cake representing a heterosexual marriage. Now if the customers choose to change the cake topper or anything about the cake for that matter after it is bought that is their choice and they can do what they want to with the cake.

 

[werepossum]

I fail to see a one post reply as "very emotional", are you always delusional or is that just today?

And again, are you suggesting that all bakeries will immediately stop baking cakes for gay weddings unless the courts/government do not intervene?

Small towns tend to be insular. Especially in the South, it's entirely possible that all bakeries within a particular town would stop baking cakes for gay weddings.

Also, according to SCOTUS they aren't gay weddings. They are just weddings.

You're saying religion is NOT a protect class? You're simply wrong. There's no way to sugar coat this.

Looks like other people have already tried the trolling I've suggested:
Muslim sues Abercrombie & Fitch over hijab - she won $5 million in that lawsuit.
UPS sued over no-beard policy

This is where ultra liberal policies lead. You're not allowed to have any standards whatsoever because some of them might offend someone. If I want a cake that says Happy 9/11 Day, you are required by law to make it for me. If you offend me or any of my weird beliefs, I can sue you into the ground. By law, my feelings are more important than your rights.

This is a tricky gray area. Religion is a protected class regarding discrimination against the adherent, but not regarding discrimination by the adherent. The gay bookseller could not legally refuse to sell you a book because you are a Christian, but neither could you refuse to bake him a cake because he is gay. Regarding the latter, it's another gray area exactly where your rights supercede the customer's rights. However, some animals really are more equal than others, and where it comes to these protected groups it's black and white.

I'll also have to admit that I'm okay with some animals being more equal than others as long as it is groups suffering from discrimination and as long as it is limited to protection and not privilege.

 

[CitizenKain]

I should go to bakeries and try to get a cake that says "Death To America" on it. If the person working there refuses, I'll sue them to into the ground. They're discriminating against me because of my beliefs!!1

I just don't understand this extreme liberal mindset where I should be forced to serve people. If some guy comes in wanting a cake that says "Fags Burn In Hell," I should be within my right to tell him to fuck off. In liberal land, I would be forced by law to make that cake.

Well no, but keep believing whatever rightwing media tells you to. Its much, much easier then thinking for yourself.

 

[FerrelGeek]

are they going to go after the muslim bakery that didnt bake a gay cake as well?

Why not?

Pretty much, discrimination is discrimination.

Does anyone know how this turned out? Did the Muslim bakery relent? Was any legal action taken if they didn't?

 

[Brainonska511]

You're saying religion is NOT a protect class? You're simply wrong. There's no way to sugar coat this.

Looks like other people have already tried the trolling I've suggested:
Muslim sues Abercrombie & Fitch over hijab - she won $5 million in that lawsuit.
UPS sued over no-beard policy

This is where ultra liberal policies lead. You're not allowed to have any standards whatsoever because some of them might offend someone. If I want a cake that says Happy 9/11 Day, you are required by law to make it for me. If you offend me or any of my weird beliefs, I can sue you into the ground. By law, my feelings are more important than your rights.

Ultra-liberal: being allowed to wear a head covering or have a beard in accordance with one's religion when it doesn't present a health or safety hazard to the operating environment.

Yet for some reason, this doesn't qualify as ultra liberal: being allowed to use one's personal beliefs to withhold government services from people you don't like under so called "religious-freedom restoration" laws.


The very idea that you call those lawsuits trolling is preposterous. These people were being discriminated against because of their religious beliefs. But because it's not Judeo-Christian, it's trolling.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

from the minimal web searching I did one of the Muslim bakeries in question does not look like it makes wedding cakes for anyone.
It looked more like a fruit tart and cookie bakery.

I admit I haven't put any substantial effort into this but hey the AT anti-gay warriors could go out and ask themselves.