WD120Gb "morphed" to a 114Gb one

zm2002

Banned
Mar 12, 2002
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Good Day,

I would like to know if there is anyone out there in the same situation as I am (ofcourse there is):

I bought a Western Digital 120Gb 8Mb cache drive (WD1200JB) but I can only use in NTFS the real 114Gb space.

Your post will not solve any problem, but at least I won't be feeling I'm the only one duped with marketing numbers ... most probably all people that bought this same HD suffer the same situation.

Thanks :)
 

CrazySaint

Platinum Member
May 3, 2002
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Actually, everybody who has bought *any* HDD has suffered this situation. There are a few other factors involved, but the main cause of this is that HDD manufactures use GB = 1000MB = 1000KB while the OS uses GB = 1024MB = 1024KB. So, in fact, your HDD does have 120GB (GB = 1000MB), but only 114GB (GB = 1024MB). I hope this clears it up a bit for you.
 

AndyHui

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member<br>AT FAQ M
Oct 9, 1999
13,141
17
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It's not NTFS's fault. It's the way space is calculated by Operating Systems vs Manufacturers.

Everyone has this problem who are not aware of the differences in calculating sizes. It has been happening for a long time.
 

crazychicken

Platinum Member
Jan 20, 2001
2,081
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i know
thats so dumb

i guess most people that are going to buy components know about it anyway, but its still stupid.

senario:

dealer: "our new car has 2000 horsepower"
buyer: "excellent, i'll take it."
dealer: "great!"

3 weeks later
"RING RING!"
dealer: "hello?"
buyer: "yes, i bought a car and i thought i had 2000 hp and i only am getting 200"
dealer: "oh yes, well at the factory 1hp=10hp, sorry, everyone gets only 200"


THIS IS REDICULOUS (sp? lol)

just thought i'd vent a bit

thanks for listening (well, reading)
 

Woodchuck2000

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2002
1,632
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It's entirely reasonable given the terminology.
A gigabyte is 10^9 bytes, i.e. 1,000,000,000 bytes and therefore a 120Gb hard drive is 120,000,000,000 bytes.

OSs calculate it in terms of gibibytes. (That's not a mistype.) a gibibyte is 1024x1024x1024 bytes or 2^30 bytes. You've probably pointed out to someone in the past that a kilobyte is in fact 1024 bytes, just as a megabyte is 1024 bytes.
Actually, you're talking about kibibytes and mebibytes since by definintion, the mega- prefix means a million of something.

Anyway, 120,000,000,000 divided by 2^30 comes to about 112 gibibytes. The manufacturer is therefore not lying when he talks about the hard disk being 120 Gigabytes. You're simply using the wrong definition of Gigabyte.
 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
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Yes, maybe mega and giga technically mean a million and a billion respectively, but that is not what they mean in computer terms. When used in conjunction with computer terms, the meanings change. This is because computers use binary code to work, which uses powers of 2. This means that 1024 is as close a power of 2 gets to being 1000. Don't defend the manufacturers scheme, there is no OS that displays information according to the manufacturers. It is simply a way they can advertise more than is offered. That is BS, and it needs to be stopped in my opinion.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
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"That is BS, and it needs to be stopped in my opinion."

What's BS is calling something a giga-, when the term giga is a universal standard that already means something else.

"When used in conjunction with computer terms, the meanings change."

So a 1GHZ P3 is actually 1024^3 Hz? A 28.8kbps modem now transmits at 29,491bytes/sec? It's a fallacy to say that talking about computers automatically means binary, which is why they should get rid of the binary usage rather than the other way around.
 

CQuinn

Golden Member
May 31, 2000
1,656
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Isn't this a FAQ question yet?

The Hard Drive makers have always done thier measurement that way,
because "back in the day" they could not gaurantee that every OS
being used would map the drive in the same way. It makes more
sense for them to give the raw measurement of capacity in base10,
because it was the most common starting point for conversion
to 8-bit, 9-bit, and 10-bit addressing schemes.

At this point they probably could market the drive capacity based
on its formatted capacity, but:

1) That would break backwards compatibility with the previous method.
(You might not mind, but the rest of the industry would have a fit...)

2) That would mean the capacity is marketed based on a specific OS;
which means the measurements would change every few years as a new OS
with a newer filesystem (FAT12 -> FAT16 -> FAT32 -> HPFS -> NTFS -> NTFS_SQL)
comes down the pike. (And that is not counting MacOS, Linux, BeOS, or the
various other Operating Systems/ File Systems that are still usable even on
todays drives.) At any point, some filesystem can come along which is much
better, but completely changes how the formatted drive capacity comes out in
the end. (Do you want MS telling you how much raw capacity your drive has?)

3) Most people seem to overlook that part of the capacity with any file
system has overhead taken up with the File Allocation Table, Master File
Table, inode database, or however else the OS keeps track of where data is on
the drive. And the more advanced the features are in the filesystem, the
more space will get taken for journalling, compression, encryption, and other
forms of meta-data.
(unless you are accessing the drive as a raw disk and keeping the file table
on some other media).

another scenario:

dealer: "our new car has a 20 cubic liter engine"

buyer (thinking: if I get 10 horsepower per liter on regular gas,
that comes out to 200 horsepower
): "excellent, i'll take it."

dealer: "great!"

3 weeks later
"RING RING!"
dealer: "hello?"

buyer: "yes, i bought a car and i thought i had 200 hp and i only am getting 180"

dealer: "did you factor in the air-fuel mix in your power calculation?"

buyer: "No, but couldn't you have told me what that was?"

dealer: "Only if you buy the same gas from the same station all the time,
and never change elevation more than 500 ft in your travels."
 

Pauli

Senior member
Oct 14, 1999
836
0
0
How often is this question going to be posted? I have seen a post on this topic literally every week for the past 2 years. This is OLD NEWS people!
 

DanFungus

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2001
5,857
0
0
Originally posted by: Pauli
How often is this question going to be posted? I have seen a post on this topic literally every week for the past 2 years. This is OLD NEWS people!

yeah, that's what I was thinking too....Acutally, on the box, it says 1 gigabyte = 1 billion bytes, so, you can figure it out since 2^10 = 1024, you're going to be missing some bytage
 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
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0
So a 1GHZ P3 is actually 1024^3 Hz? A 28.8kbps modem now transmits at 29,491bytes/sec? It's a fallacy to say that talking about computers automatically means binary, which is why they should get rid of the binary usage rather than the other way around.

Those points are moot. This is because NO operating system uses the same scheme as businesses. This does not make practical sense. It is just an excuse used by business to make their products look more appealing. Also, the speeds of modems are not reported pretending that a kilobyte = 1000 bytes. If they were, then the same problem would exist. A gigabyte does NOT equal 1 billion bytes. That is just the way it is. Whether it goes against the actual English meaning of the word or not doesn't matter. They should conform to the way things are.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,801
581
126
Originally posted by: crazychicken
i know
thats so dumb

i guess most people that are going to buy components know about it anyway, but its still stupid.

senario:

dealer: "our new car has 2000 horsepower"
buyer: "excellent, i'll take it."
dealer: "great!"

3 weeks later
"RING RING!"
dealer: "hello?"
buyer: "yes, i bought a car and i thought i had 2000 hp and i only am getting 200"
dealer: "oh yes, well at the factory 1hp=10hp, sorry, everyone gets only 200"


THIS IS REDICULOUS (sp? lol)

just thought i'd vent a bit

thanks for listening (well, reading)
Actually, this does happen. Think engine rated horsepower vs. actual horsepower at the wheels.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
"This is because NO operating system uses the same scheme as businesses."

Huh?

"Also, the speeds of modems are not reported pretending that a kilobyte = 1000 bytes."

Yes they do, and no they are not pretending. When referring to data transmissions, the decimal system is used. So you store in binary (kilobyte = 1024bytes) and send in decimal (kilobyte = 1000bytes), which makes absolutely no sense.

"A gigabyte does NOT equal 1 billion bytes."

It does if you are emailing it to someone. There are no beneficial reasons for reporting the capacity of a drive in binary, which is why they should get rid of it and join the rest of the world in decimal. I doubt it would take any significant coding for MS to change the value of a gigabyte to a 1 billion bytes in the OS, even if the drive itself is reporting the capacity in binary.
 

CrazySaint

Platinum Member
May 3, 2002
2,441
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0
The Knights Who Say Gibi: Gibi! Gibi! Gibi!

Me: No! NOT THE KNIGHTS WHO SAY GIBI!

The Knights Who Say Gibi: The SAME!



:p



:D
 

Pauli

Senior member
Oct 14, 1999
836
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0
I have a suggestion for all you numbskulls who think you are somehow being "cheated" by hard disk manufacturers: Open up the properties dialog box for your hard disk drive and don't even look where is states the size in "xx.x GB". Look only where it says "xx,xxx,xxx,xxx bytes". I guarantee that you will feel better about it.
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
1,165
23
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Time to "morph" open the instructions that came with your harddrive and read where they define what a gigabyte is.
 

JavaMomma

Senior member
Oct 19, 2000
701
0
71
gotta love marketing ;)

Anyways I used to work at Staples. I sold some guy a 17" monitor and he came back an hour or so later all mad & yelling at me.
Because when he had got home he used a tape measure and the monitor only had 16.something inchs of screen.
I dont know why he got at mad at me though, I guess he thought I lied to him or something.

Gave me a good laugh at least.
 

Woodchuck2000

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2002
1,632
1
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It does say either on the Hard Disk or on the Packaging that 1GB = 1,000,000,000 Bytes. It's not as if the manufacturer hides the fact. I'm not entirely sure what the justification for a 17" monitor having 16.2" visible area is, but at least most screens to state the fact.
 

WinkOsmosis

Banned
Sep 18, 2002
13,990
1
0
Originally posted by: Adul
i wish the would stop doing that and get it right. it is decieving has it is.
They are doing it right. 1000 = kilo, 1000000 = mega, 1000000000 = giga. The correct terms for 1024 and its multiples use some funny prefixes.

Ah I found them... Correct 2^n prefixes.