[WCCF tech] Both Nvidia And AMD Sides of The GameWorks Story, part I...

[antihelten]

Nice work, but I think there's a flaw with your data. Gameworks didn't exist in 2008, it wasn't released until 2014 some time, so you'll probably have to rework your data.

The reason why I picked 2008 as the cutoff point, was because that was the year Nvidia acquired PhysX, which arguably laid the groundwork for what would later evolve into GameWorks

And taking March 2014 (release of GameWorks) as the cutoff point would lead to some slightly weird cases. For instance CoD: Ghosts was released in November 2013, and features PhysX, TXAA, HBAO+ and HairWorks, all key features of GameWorks, but since it launched 4 months before the official release of GameWorks we shouldn't count it?

 

[showb1z]

The AMD/nvidia conflict drama is always more interesting, but I think gameworks games being broken af is more important to gamers because it's actually a negative experience regardless of if you have nvidia or amd in your system. The dead in the water kepler performance is also more significant than the back and forth between them.

This exactly. People get way too hung up on the AMD vs Nvidia thing, ignoring the bigger issue with GW that affects the whole of PC gaming.
Whichever "team" you pick, you lose.

 

[Goatsecks]

This exactly. People get way too hung up on the AMD vs Nvidia thing, ignoring the bigger issue with GW that affects the whole of PC gaming.

But it can be turned off. Even when it is turned off the associated games do not magically resume a more normal / acceptable level of functionality.

 

[Sabrewings]

It doesn't bother you when Pascal's release will cause a rapid tanking of Maxwell in NV sponsored titles?

That's mostly supposition. Kepler to Maxwell was a pretty serious architecture reorganization for Nvidia at the SMM level and even down to individual SP cores. This means separate driver optimizations are required. I have yet to see anything that proves Nvidia is intentionally gimping the Kepler cards other than not spending as much time (if any) on driver optimizations for them at this point.

With a node shrink incoming, and all the work spent on optimizing the SMM design to improve performance at the 28nm node, it stands to reason that Pascal will be more like Maxwell than Maxwell was like Kepler.

Even as a customer, this doesn't really bother me. It doesn't matter which side you choose as GCN 1.x is getting a bit long in the tooth and showing its age. AMD is going to have to go to GCN 2.x or whatever they choose to call it and the trickle down optimizations at that point are no longer guaranteed. The node shrink is going to bring such a gap in performance that it also negates which side you're on. Either way you're going to want something new as games come out to make use of it, so it doesn't matter to me.

 

[therealnickdanger]

The reality is that all these middleware/API shortcuts were born out of the lackluster support from Microsoft that they USED TO provide to devs. Direct3D is far from perfect, but at least PC gaming used to have a champion leading the charge on a unified front.

The Xbox 360/Xbone occupied so much gaming/graphics talent from Microsoft, that little was left to the PC. DX10 and DX11 were more of a necessity born of console development than bleeding-edge PC development. Games for Windows Live? Haha, it's like they weren't even trying. Microsoft left a huge hole in the PC gaming world that was filled by Steam, GoG, Origin, etc. They could totally OWN the PC gaming world right now if they hadn't spent so many billions on the Xbox brand (not bashing Xbox, I spent many thousands of hours on Xbox).

Maybe with DX12 we'll see Microsoft return to the glory days of DX8/9 where they worked a lot harder with devs to produce a clear dividing line between PC games and console games. With Windows 10, it seems like they are trying, but I guess we'll see how the next year or two go.

 

[Goatsecks]

It doesn't bother you when Pascal's release will cause a rapid tanking of Maxwell in NV sponsored titles?

It would bother me if the majority of modern titles were NV sponsored games and game works was forced on.

 

[Headfoot]

AMD has already submitted it to JEDEC they are bound to license their IP attached to the tech under fair terms. (Sorry, I'm not up on the exact terms and conditions but it's to the effect that I've stated).

Yeah, they call it FRAND (or RAND) for (Fair) Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory. So the patent pooler must agree to license to anyone who wants to join the pool on fair, reasonable and non discriminatory terms. FRAND is based out of contract law in the US. In not very familiar with Euorpean and South East Asian approaches but iirc they have actual special laws on the books to enforce FRAND deals.

Which is probably even further moot as I'd bet money AMD and nVidia have comprehensive cross licensing agreements

 

[Hitman928]

The reason why I picked 2008 as the cutoff point, was because that was the year Nvidia acquired PhysX, which arguably laid the groundwork for what would later evolve into GameWorks

And taking March 2014 (release of GameWorks) as the cutoff point would lead to some slightly weird cases. For instance CoD: Ghosts was released in November 2013, and features PhysX, TXAA, HBAO+ and HairWorks, all key features of GameWorks, but since it launched 4 months before the official release of GameWorks we shouldn't count it?

As far as I understand it, the argument isn't about the inclusion of Nvidia technology, but the new way that gameworks implements the tech and the requirements on the developers using it. If this is true, only games using actual gameworks middleware and licensing should be considered, otherwise your expanding your scope beyond the original argument. If the argument is just the inclusion of the technology is the issue, then you're data is fine.

 

[kawi6rr]

And you bought these primarily for gaming?
Been there done that. As an ex angry Kepler user I moved on. You can find my post unhappy with Kepler. "Then why did you buy Maxwell" simple twas better than fury x and ultimately better than consoles.

Rewarding them for pissing you off.

 

[railven]

Rewarding them for pissing you off.

My employer pisses me off all the time. I still take the overtime.

Cat pissed on my shirt, pissed me off, still bought him his favorite toy when I saw it at the store.

What are we, 5? So would you roll your eyes less if I rewarded AMD for buying a product I deemed inferior for my needs? Woof.

 

[Headfoot]

Woof.

???

 

[railven]

???

Haha, I use it as slang (even in regular speech) as it was normal in the circle of kids I grew up with it.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woof

WOOF
It is a multi-purpose word used in an awkward situation, to disagree, to say gross, to signify a time to laugh, or just to shout out whenever you need it!
OMG, that chick is so woof!

or

(awkward silence) Woof mcgoof

About as close as to how we used it as kids.

 

[Ma_Deuce]

My employer pisses me off all the time. I still take the overtime.

Cat pissed on my shirt, pissed me off, still bought him his favorite toy when I saw it at the store.

What are we, 5? So would you roll your eyes less if I rewarded AMD for buying a product I deemed inferior for my needs? Woof.

Ford screwed me over on a clutch repair for my Shelby. Sure as the wind the next new truck I bought was not a Ford.

If a company sells you poor quality products or gives poor support or supports policies that you don't agree with or whatever, it's not immature to vote with your wallet. These companies only understand $$$.

If someone doesn't buy Nvidia because of percieved non-competitive practices, more power to them I say. However, I don't think it's enough just to purchase somewhere else. If you want the biggest effect, let them know why you are going elsewhere.

 

[96Firebird]

Ford screwed me over on a clutch repair for my Shelby. Sure as the wind the next new truck I bought was not a Ford.

If a company sells you poor quality products or gives poor support or supports policies that you don't agree with or whatever, it's not immature to vote with your wallet. These companies only understand $$$.

If someone doesn't buy Nvidia because of percieved non-competitive practices, more power to them I say. However, I don't think it's enough just to purchase somewhere else. If you want the biggest effect, let them know why you are going elsewhere.

This may be an option with regards to automobile manufacturers because there are dozens to choose from. With video cards used for gaming, there are 2. If one company pisses you off, sure, it would be smart to look at the other one. But when the other one doesn't give you what you want, and the one that pissed you off does, choices are limited.

 

[railven]

Ford screwed me over on a clutch repair for my Shelby. Sure as the wind the next new truck I bought was not a Ford.

If a company sells you poor quality products or gives poor support or supports policies that you don't agree with or whatever, it's not immature to vote with your wallet. These companies only understand $$$.

Oh, you're 100% right I completely agree. Let me regale you with my last AMD setup. Microstutter (on one card), poor driver support (this is before AMD got bit in the arse and picked up the slack), but I still gave them more money and went CFX. Even worse microstutter, then their drivers broke a key feature I bought CFX for in attempts to fix the microstutter. This led to more issues specifically in WoW and 100% load GPU even when I'm sitting there browsing the internet.

You're 100% right - I decided with my wallet.

If someone doesn't buy Nvidia because of percieved non-competitive practices, more power to them I say. However, I don't think it's enough just to purchase somewhere else. If you want the biggest effect, let them know why you are going elsewhere.

Agree. Everyone should decide with their wallet. Thankfully we got options. I just don't get why people harsh on other's wallet choices.

 

[Ma_Deuce]

I just don't get why people harsh on other's wallet choices.

There's a lot of that on the interwebs. /shrug

 

[tential]

Oh, you're 100% right I completely agree. Let me regale you with my last AMD setup. Microstutter (on one card), poor driver support (this is before AMD got bit in the arse and picked up the slack), but I still gave them more money and went CFX. Even worse microstutter, then their drivers broke a key feature I bought CFX for in attempts to fix the microstutter. This led to more issues specifically in WoW and 100% load GPU even when I'm sitting there browsing the internet.

You're 100% right - I decided with my wallet.



Agree. Everyone should decide with their wallet. Thankfully we got options. I just don't get why people harsh on other's wallet choices.

I have so many things to touch on in this thread but I still at work lol but railven understands my point. And he is a Radeon fan which is what people itt are forgetting. My most recent gpu was the 7950.

Youre seeing 1 person who purchased the 980ti (railven) and another person who canceled both of their amd video card upgrades(amd) and is only considering nvidia now(myself). Look at the things we have issues with.

Saying nvidia sucks and is anti competitive blah blah blah is true in a lot of respects. But amd hasn't done much lately to give me a reason to purchase. They're not price competitive. They're not feature competitive. They're not competitive in oc performance. Power consumption is lackluster (why bother down volting... I'll get nvidia if I cared about power but I don't).

They're competitive in crossfire, 4k (only that since you can't vsr from higher resolutions so beyond 4k nvidia wins because it's the only game in town), and vram for the 390/x. Board size and wce for high end. (these advantages are not fully utilized but are still nice. I like watercooling and like having small boards for ease of installation, flexibility and removal.)

Like railven said already, we're happy to get Radeon products that are slower if we pay less. This current pricing/performance? Consumers like us only care about company ethics so much. At the end of the day, we still need a product that fits our needs and amd is missing too many things.

On a side note railven, I just installed MSI afterburner for the first time (do I even oc? 4770k and 7950 I'm sure some enthusiasts want to physically slap me lol). Going to see how far I can push this 7950 when I'm actually monitoring it well lol.

 

[darckhart]

It's a free market. NV can do as they please. AMD can do as they please. Game devs can do as they please. Customers can do as they please. If games, cards, or whatever don't perform up to your standards, just don't buy it. Companies only survive as long as we customers keep feeding them money.

Are pc gamers getting screwed? Yea, I've believed it for a long time. It's clear that consoles are making all of them much more money. PC gaming is an afterthought. So if NV offers up some tech that makes coders lives easier, makes sense they'd take that path. And if it doesn't work well, who cares (looking at you AK)? Everyone still bought it. So we can grumble all we want, but if we keep giving up the cash, it means they got away with it.

 

[kawi6rr]

My employer pisses me off all the time. I still take the overtime.

Cat pissed on my shirt, pissed me off, still bought him his favorite toy when I saw it at the store.

What are we, 5? So would you roll your eyes less if I rewarded AMD for buying a product I deemed inferior for my needs? Woof.

Are you giving your cat hundreds of dollars? Do you give your employer hundreds of dollars for pissing you off? I think not

 

[railven]

I have so many things to touch on in this thread but I still at work lol but railven understands my point. And he is a Radeon fan which is what people itt are forgetting. My most recent gpu was the 7950.

Youre seeing 1 person who purchased the 980ti (railven) and another person who canceled both of their amd video card upgrades(amd) and is only considering nvidia now(myself). Look at the things we have issues with.

Saying nvidia sucks and is anti competitive blah blah blah is true in a lot of respects. But amd hasn't done much lately to give me a reason to purchase. They're not price competitive. They're not feature competitive. They're not competitive in oc performance. Power consumption is lackluster (why bother down volting... I'll get nvidia if I cared about power but I don't).

They're competitive in crossfire, 4k (only that since you can't vsr from higher resolutions so beyond 4k nvidia wins because it's the only game in town), and vram for the 390/x. Board size and wce for high end. (these advantages are not fully utilized but are still nice. I like watercooling and like having small boards for ease of installation, flexibility and removal.)

Like railven said already, we're happy to get Radeon products that are slower if we pay less. This current pricing/performance? Consumers like us only care about company ethics so much. At the end of the day, we still need a product that fits our needs and amd is missing too many things.

On a side note railven, I just installed MSI afterburner for the first time (do I even oc? 4770k and 7950 I'm sure some enthusiasts want to physically slap me lol). Going to see how far I can push this 7950 when I'm actually monitoring it well lol.

Well said, and it seems to be a growing trend among once vocally favorable AMD/Radeon users.

Around here there was an epic thread about the glorious HD 7950 (made a 7970 owner bit jelly since no one created an epic HD 7970 thread ) and how it OC'ed like a beast and sipped power when compared to it's older brother.

I'd definitely OC it, you should easily it top AMD Overdrive limits with 1.25v. But of course, that's going to use power and get hot, so find your sweet spot!

I settled at 1.2v I believe and that netted me 1220 on my 7970. Stock volts were 1.175. Tahiti was known for it's OCing proneness and was basically "free" performance for the user to snag.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5458/the-radeon-hd-7970-reprise-pcie-bandwidth-overclocking-and-msaa/2

Are you giving your cat hundreds of dollars? Do you give your employer hundreds of dollars for pissing you off? I think not

My cat is scheduled for his first "elder cat" visit, and on top of that a few other tests (see cat's don't normally pee on your shirts) because we think he might have something wrong with him. Before anything special already $220 pre-paid visit. Soo...ummm....what? Have you ever owned a pet? And I bought him his favorite toy to alleviate the stress he may be feeling.

As for my employer, yeah, he gives me hundreds of dollars for my time (which is arguable worth hundreds of dollars). I used that as an example of a mutual exchange of services (ie, I'm not going to turn down hundreds of dollars because my employer pisses me off at times.)

Haha. This guy, woof!

 

[kawi6rr]

My cat is scheduled for his first "elder cat" visit, and on top of that a few other tests (see cat's don't normally pee on your shirts) because we think he might have something wrong with him. Before anything special already $220 pre-paid visit. Soo...ummm....what? Have you ever owned a pet? And I bought him his favorite toy to alleviate the stress he may be feeling.

As for my employer, yeah, he gives me hundreds of dollars for my time (which is arguable worth hundreds of dollars). I used that as an example of a mutual exchange of services (ie, I'm not going to turn down hundreds of dollars because my employer pisses me off at times.)

Haha. This guy, woof!

Regardless of how you want to try and spin it if you keep purchasing those top cards and are pissed off about it then you're rewarding them for doing it again regardless if its Nvidia or AMD.

 

[Sabrewings]

Regardless of how you want to try and spin it if you keep purchasing those top cards and are pissed off about it then you're rewarding them for doing it again regardless if its Nvidia or AMD.

So either the companies behave or we take our ball and go home? No thanks. I'll buy what suits me when it suits me.

 

[Keysplayr]

Are you giving your cat hundreds of dollars? Do you give your employer hundreds of dollars for pissing you off? I think not

Let's see. Food. Litter box and constant supply of litter. Scratch pole. Cat bed. Vet fees.

Over the life of the cat, more like thousands. I wouldn't roll your eyes so easily.

You give your employer, your time and knowledge. You pay for your money, with your time and knowledge. You just can't look at it as a single dimension as you are currently.

 

[Keysplayr]

So either the companies behave or we take our ball and go home? No thanks. I'll buy what suits me when it suits me.

I don't know why everyone just doesn't do this. Buy what suits them and not care what others do.

 

[kawi6rr]

So either the companies behave or we take our ball and go home? No thanks. I'll buy what suits me when it suits me.

You can take your ball where ever you want. Why keep purchasing the top of the line graphics card if your pissed off about that last one? Seems to me he was rewarding Nvidia with purchasing the next one when the last one pissed him off. When this happens it doesn't give much incentive for Nvidia to make a better card because Nvidia knows there are schmucks out there that keep buying them up.
Win Win for Nvidia, not so much for the purchaser.

If you don't understand that then so be it.