[WCCF tech] Both Nvidia And AMD Sides of The GameWorks Story, part I...

[Stuka87]

Whats next, game developers should write their own compilers because Intels compiler benefits Intel CPUs?

Dont make it into another excuse on why AMD sells and perform as they do.

The vast majority of Windows game developers use Visual Studio to compile. There are some that use other compilers for Windows releases, but that would not be typical.

 

[Piroko]

The use of Gameworks is indicative of a developer's internal culture. The entire point of Gameworks is to provide a quick and dirty shortcut to pretty graphics. Instead of investing lots in building up your own graphics tech, you outsource it to NVidia. My guess is that this is the reason so many "Gameworks" titles have lots of issues- the developer has a general culture of outsourcing, of doing it on the cheap, of cutting corners and not putting work into their technology.

Well, if you're seeing one bad implementation after another there might just be a problem with their tools and documentation. You don't see people blaming stdio.h & math.h for performance issues, because they're documented to hell and back and everyone understands the specific tradeoffs those quick and dirty shortcuts bring.
On the other side, we're talking about companies like Ubisoft here, so you are probably correct.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The vast majority of Windows game developers use Visual Studio to compile. There are some that use other compilers for Windows releases, but that would not be typical.

You use the Intel compiler via Visual Studio etc.

 

[ocre]

Can you turn off PhysX?

https://developer.nvidia.com/gameworks-physx-overview

GPU accelerated phsyx must be turned on. It's not defaulted on, not in any game I have.

You probably don't know enough about it, it is very common for people to be very confused on this. Physx is used in many games and has been for years. hardware accelerated phsyx is used in a very limited number of titles.

Phsyx is a free cross platform middleware that has been widely used in games for physics, just like havoc it runs on the CPU.

the advanced HW accelerates physx is extra eye candy that nvidia themselves work to adds into select games. The extra effects are beyond what the developer put in the game, so with the advanced physx off the game will look and play just as the developers made the game.

The advanced accelerated physx nvidia adds can sometimes be ran if you have a more capable CPU. So enabling the advanced eye candy physx on a PC without an nvidia gpu will offload that work to the CPU....the effects that can be offloaded. This gives people without nvidia HW the ability to run the special physx that nvidia spent their time and money bringing to these select games. But to you, it's a ploy somehow...at least I would guess as much

 

[railven]

As long as it affects no-one else. Physx never caused this much outcry even though it was exclusive for the GPU version. Nobody wants nvidias "features" like that, but it becomes a problem if it starts to reduce the experience of gamers beyond those suckered into buying nvidia GPUs.

If it didn't affect AMD users at all then it would only matter to the nvidia users it screws over. Probably still going to cause people to complain a lot then, but a little less.

TIL: I bought the best GPU in my price range and I got "suckered into buying nvidia."

This is exactly why I can't shed my usual tears for AMD. Because the fans are down right unapproachable. I'm an NV shill because AMD didn't offer me something compelling. I'm an NV fanboy because I defend my purchase decision outside of "derp you got suckered." I "trash talk" AMD because I'm critical of the short comings of the product I WANT FOR MYSELF.

AMD fans are probably the worst thing AMD has right now. I don't recall taking a dump on Nvidia fans, ever. Wave the banner, all it does is make AMD fans look like whining babies because THEIR PRODUCT OF CHOICE is bombing.

And I know the usual suspects don't believe it, but this is coming from a die hard Radeon fan. And I would have loved to snickered at the NV team, just like I did for that short stint with my HD 7970

 

[Azix]

TIL: I bought the best GPU in my price range and I got "suckered into buying nvidia."

This is exactly why I can't shed my usual tears for AMD. Because the fans are down right unapproachable. I'm an NV shill because AMD didn't offer me something compelling. I'm an NV fanboy because I defend my purchase decision outside of "derp you got suckered." I "trash talk" AMD because I'm critical of the short comings of the product I WANT FOR MYSELF.

AMD fans are probably the worst thing AMD has right now. I don't recall taking a dump on Nvidia fans, ever. Wave the banner, all it does is make AMD fans look like whining babies because THEIR PRODUCT OF CHOICE is bombing.

And I know the usual suspects don't believe it, but this is coming from a die hard Radeon fan. And I would have loved to snickered at the NV team, just like I did for that short stint with my HD 7970

Everybody has things they look for when buying. You feel AMD offered you not as much as nvidia, I feel nvidia offers me nothing I actually want. So what?

the reason I say suckered though is really not much about that. It's again older hardware being less competitive despite the amount of cash paid. Also if a purchase was made based on gameworks that's a bit like getting suckered in due to the performance hit and questionable benefit. Still its opinion. I could go on and on about not finding value in nvidia as well. eg. I can get better (synthetic) results than the 970 I had with my current 290x UNDERCLOCKED. same result compared to other 970 results I have seen , except I get full 4GB and other features built into the hardware. but I was more thinking what they do internally to their customers, not compared to AMD. Value depends on what a person wants, but internally there are things to be wary of with nvidia.

tl;dr its in reference to gameworks.

beyond that don't know what to say man. You've completely gone on your own rant. Sorry if I hurt your feelings with that word.

ALTHOUGH, Even if you think you bought the best GPU in your price range, you could be wrong. Because on 970 launch people had the same feeling (i.e. completely beat 290x). We won't know till things settle a bit.

 

[railven]

Everybody has things they look for when buying. You feel AMD offered you not as much as nvidia, I feel nvidia offers me nothing I actually want. So what?

And water is wet. However, for my history posting here I don't recall having the NV fans attack my purchase as much as the AMD fans have. I've had some good debates/discussions with lots of posters here. Which is why I continue to post

the reason I say suckered though is really not much about that. It's again older hardware being less competitive despite the amount of cash paid. Also if a purchase was made based on gameworks that's a bit like getting suckered in due to the performance hit and questionable benefit. Still its opinion. I could go on and on about not finding value in nvidia as well. eg. I can get better (synthetic) results than the 970 I had with my current 290x UNDERCLOCKED. same result compared to other 970 results I have seen , except I get full 4GB and other features built into the hardware. but I was more thinking what they do internally to their customers, not compared to AMD. Value depends on what a person wants, but internally there are things to be wary of with nvidia.

tl;dr its in reference to gameworks.

Try looking up results for Global Illumination on HD 6970 vs HD 7970. You'll see a similar cliff in performance. As an HD 5870 user, I experienced that cliff. I didn't go to forums and write write thread after thread or start some whack conspiracy theories that AMD was forcing me to upgrade (though I did upgrade ). The most vocal complainers were the Nvidia fans. The biggest difference is Global Illumination didn't get picked up in many games, and ultimately Nvidia optimized for it and the hit wasn't as severe. AMD VLIW4/VLIW5 users? HA! Turn it off.

beyond that don't know what to say man. You've completely gone on your own rant. Sorry if I hurt your feelings with that word.

This is the internet good sir, you can't offend me

ALTHOUGH, Even if you think you bought the best GPU in your price range, you could be wrong. Because on 970 launch people had the same feeling (i.e. completely beat 290x). We won't know till things settle a bit.

Yerp, I'm sure when Pascal comes out NV would pull a corporate power move, causing my Maxwell 2 GPU to be a little less efficient running Hairworks 3.0. Just like in previous years when my GPU couldn't handle it anymore - I'd upgrade. As I always have. Whether it is Nvidia lining their bottom line or me buying a new monitor.

TL;DR:

There is a reason why AMD is barely staying alive. And people can blame the big boogiemen like Intel and Nvidia. /shrug

 

[Azix]

There is a reason why AMD is barely staying alive. And people can blame the big boogiemen like Intel and Nvidia. /shrug

They can blame intel. and whoever does their PR of course

Infraction issued for trolling.
-- stahlhart

 

[maddogmcgee]

Here's where the argument always falls flat:

ALL the Gameworks features are OPTIONAL and CAN be turned off.

There it is, plain and simple[/QUOTE]

That is wrong. Many are integrated and cant be turned off. Think project cars. Some can be turned down like in the Witcher, after all the benchmarks and reviews were safely over.

 

[frozentundra123456]

They can blame intel. and whoever does their PR of course

Damn that Intel, how dare they make a better product.

 

[AtenRa]

I would really like all games to have both AMD Gaming Evolved features AND NVIDIA GameWorks.

 

[monstercameron]

I would really like all games to have both AMD Gaming Evolved features AND NVIDIA GameWorks.

or intel's like pixel sync from grid autosport.

 

[beginner99]

The use of Gameworks is indicative of a developer's internal culture. The entire point of Gameworks is to provide a quick and dirty shortcut to pretty graphics. Instead of investing lots in building up your own graphics tech, you outsource it to NVidia. My guess is that this is the reason so many "Gameworks" titles have lots of issues- the developer has a general culture of outsourcing, of doing it on the cheap, of cutting corners and not putting work into their technology.

I was thinking along the same lines. That's why most of GW titles suck and some actually not so much.

AMD has already submitted it to JEDEC they are bound to license their IP attached to the tech under fair terms. (Sorry, I'm not up on the exact terms and conditions but it's to the effect that I've stated).

Bound to license it and someone actually being able to manufacture it are 2 completely different things. The very much doubtful rumor is AMD secured "premium access" to HBM2 from hynix. Since they are the only manufacturer, NV only get HBM2 if AMD does not use it all, eg. once production gets higher or someone else than hynix actually manufactures it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I was thinking along the same lines. That's why most of GW titles suck and some actually not so much.

Most GW titles are very good. But you dont hear much about it because the other crowd cant complain then.

One could just as well claim most AMD evolved titles run like turds using the same logic.

 

[Azix]

Damn that Intel, how dare they make a better product.

http://www.wired.com/2009/12/ftc-sues-intel-for-anti-competitive-practices/

Those fines wouldn't even come close to what they got from what they've done over the years from the compiler to companies

Sure NOW they make a somewhat better product though that's debatable in the markets AMD is in (under $200 mostly). Won't praise AMDs CPUs and I did go intel, but intel didn't get where they are by making a better product. The PR advantage gained from being in all those systems is huge. What intel managed to do to AMD was massive in my view. Taking revenue thus reducing research on CPUs and GPUs.

So, what does the FTC want Intel to do in order to make up for an alleged decade of abuse of customers, computer manufacturers and competing chip manufacturers? Basically, it just wants Intel to stop.

Intel cannot be defended on this. This is the reason amd is where they are. Invest billions in better CPUs and reap little from it because of intel.

Nvidia is trying something similar but I think nvidia is doing it out of worry about AMDs presence in consoles and potential dx12 gains.

 

[Dribble]

All I see is one side actively bringing new features to PC games, and the other making a lot of noise but and bluster but basically hardly doing anything. If you want my business don't sit there whining about the unfairness of it all go produce something better.

Enough of this endless complaining - it isn't working.

 

[Silverforce11]

It's easy to blame crap devs for releasing turds. But it takes two to tango, as they say.

@Dribble
You should count how many AMD GE titles vs GameWorks titles. That statement is ignorant at best.

It sure is working when its getting more media coverage and hitting front page on Reddit. Several times in fact already. The more neutral gamers are aware, the less they will blame AMD when yet another GW title runs like donkey. That can only be good, except if you're an AMD hater.

 

[railven]

It's easy to blame crap devs for releasing turds. But it takes two to tango, as they say.

@Dribble
You should count how many AMD GE titles vs GameWorks titles. That statement is ignorant at best.

It sure is working when its getting more media coverage and hitting front page on Reddit. Several times in fact already. The more neutral gamers are aware, the less they will blame AMD when yet another GW title runs like donkey. That can only be good, except if you're an AMD hater.

Yet, I'd wager money Nvidia still comes out on top. And people will post in technical forums how majority of users are sheeple. Then I'll scratch my head at wondering how AMD holding the moral high ground lost it's flock.

I often read a lot on Reddit (and various other forums) how terrible Apple hardware is and it's cost. But Apple is killing it.

Poor Nvidia, with their ruined reputation.
<Woody_Harrelson_wiping_tears_with_money.gif>

Meanwhile, AMD producing actual technologies that benefit all users (which I will always kudos them for and is why I'm still a Radeon fan, but...)
<bad_luck_Brian.gif>

 

[tential]

Yet, I'd wager money Nvidia still comes out on top. And people will post in technical forums how majority of users are sheeple. Then I'll scratch my head at wondering how AMD holding the moral high ground lost it's flock.

I often read a lot on Reddit (and various other forums) how terrible Apple hardware is and it's cost. But Apple is killing it.

Poor Nvidia, with their ruined reputation.
<Woody_Harrelson_wiping_tears_with_money.gif>

Meanwhile, AMD producing actual technologies that benefit all users (which I will always kudos them for and is why I'm still a Radeon fan, but...)
<bad_luck_Brian.gif>

Ya you're a Radeon fan and you have a GTX 980Ti, I'm NOT a Radeon fan (but I give them kudos), and I just am seeing less and less reasons to stick around.
I just think this whole gen of cards made me sick. Between Nvidia's practices and AMD's practices this generation, I don't feel either company deserves any of my money tbh.

Maybe in 5 years intel might have something that can give the graphics cards companies trouble (whatever it may be whether in dedicated or igpu form.

 

[Silverforce11]

I'll be honest, the only reason I buy AMD GPUs now when the 980Ti is a better buy due to OC margins, is because of their open practice that benefits all gamers & the industry. I don't want PC gaming to become exclusive like consoles. This is the end-game for GW as it becomes the middleware in more games, with NV being able to have the final say in how the game runs, looks, etc. If you don't have their latest GPUs, you don't get to enjoy optimized features or the game runs like a dog on your "barely old" $1K GPU..

IF AMD behave the same as NV and develop new closed source features, I'll move to console gaming. It's a cheaper platform for exclusivity gaming, I don't have to waste $1 to $2K on GPUs to run poorly optimized turds.

 

[tential]

I'll be honest, the only reason I buy AMD GPUs now when the 980Ti is a better buy due to OC margins, is because of their open practice that benefits all gamers & the industry. I don't want PC gaming to become exclusive like consoles. This is the end-game for GW as it becomes the middleware in more games, with NV being able to have the final say in how the game runs, looks, etc. If you don't have their latest GPUs, you don't get to enjoy optimized features or the game runs like a dog on your "barely old" $1K GPU..

IF AMD behave the same as NV and develop new closed source features, I'll move to console gaming. It's a cheaper platform for exclusivity gaming, I don't have to waste $1 to $2K on GPUs to run poorly optimized turds.

I'm finding it harder and harder to justify AMD purchase. Nvidia's got just as good performance now with the new AMD card pricing (200 series is dead and in a month won't matter anyway lets stick to the lineups that are important now we know the 200 series is the best buy right now if you are getting a card right now).

AMD might have more VRAM with the 300 series but meh. DSR being far more flexible than VSR. HDMI 2.0. OCs like a champ. Consume less power.

I mean, you're giving Nvidia a LOT of flak here but they are producing a product that beats AMD on a LOT of fronts. It's not a huge "price premium" at this point either. You can get a GTX 980 for $440 right now lol. I didn't even look hard I clicked the FIRST product I saw on newegg.

This new lineup of AMD vs Nvidia doesn't look good for AMD at all. It looks horrible to me. The 980Ti custom cards just wreck AMD's day. Lol, I'm about to talk myself into a 980Ti.

 

[railven]

Ya you're a Radeon fan and you have a GTX 980Ti, I'm NOT a Radeon fan (but I give them kudos), and I just am seeing less and less reasons to stick around.
I just think this whole gen of cards made me sick. Between Nvidia's practices and AMD's practices this generation, I don't feel either company deserves any of my money tbh.

Maybe in 5 years intel might have something that can give the graphics cards companies trouble (whatever it may be whether in dedicated or igpu form.

I'll be honest, the only reason I buy AMD GPUs now when the 980Ti is a better buy due to OC margins, is because of their open practice that benefits all gamers & the industry. I don't want PC gaming to become exclusive like consoles. This is the end-game for GW as it becomes the middleware in more games, with NV being able to have the final say in how the game runs, looks, etc. If you don't have their latest GPUs, you don't get to enjoy optimized features or the game runs like a dog on your "barely old" $1K GPU..

IF AMD behave the same as NV and develop new closed source features, I'll move to console gaming. It's a cheaper platform for exclusivity gaming, I don't have to waste $1 to $2K on GPUs to run poorly optimized turds.

Oh man, I would love it (LOVE IT) if Intel some how got their dirty hands on the Radeon/ATI/GPU patents from AMD. An Intel paid/sponsored/funded/whatever Radeon would absolutely DESTROY IT. Then we'll have a real dirty fight. One Intel can bleed billions into while Nvidia tries to sweet talk devs to feature Hairworks 5.0 (notice I just keep adding new versions to this haha ).

I think I lost my mind when 290X basically launched with that cooler and the bitmine craze screwed us gamers over. I know that it wasn't AMD faults and they got the bad end of the straw on that, but dammit "it's my money and I want it now!"

Nvidia is gonna Nvidia and they've been doing it for so long (I can't even Hybrid PhysX anymore, those rat bastards!) that I just gave up. I kept hoping for AMD to do something. I got super excited about Gaming Evolved, then I found myself playing PC Ports of games, with no added flavor to make the PC version stand out. I mean, come on Bioshock had DOF. DOF!!!! And it MURDERED performance (see my last post about why I went CFX 7970s). Then FFXIV had nothing (and this is the real kicker, now that FFXIV is a Greenworks game they added these little nuances that give the game a different presentation. I never realized how small things like reflections on a polished marble? tables could make a scene pop just a little more).

As a long time consoler I know what it means to have a fragmented market. Perhaps why I'm not as up in arms anymore. Both companies are gonna to what they have to do. Frankly, I think AMD is basically lying down waiting to die. They do so much to get new innovate technologies out there, but often as history teaches us - it isn't who does it first, it's who does it better. And Nvidia is doing it all better (and basically free to them since AMD (and others) do all the R&D).

TL;DR:
PC gaming is going to go further into a fragmentation as the total hardware sales drop. Both companies NEED to find ways to encourage their users to upgrade because if you look at desktop sales, the OEMs aren't doing a very good job of selling new PCs. So, yes, some of us whine that Witcher 4 uses Hairworks 6.0 (tehe) and it cost like 80% performance on our last gen card, but the "enthusiast" in us sees that reason to "I can finally upgrade." Otherwise, we'd be playing console ports at 300 FPS or DSR/VSR out the ying-yang in another era of "stupid console, these ports are terrible. They're holding PC gaming back."

As a consumer, it sucks, but as a gamer - I go where the cheese is. And Nvidia is cheesing their traps so damn good (I just got MGS5 for FREE!!!!!)

EDIT: This is what I mean, I just saw this on Steam (and yes I will buy it, these are the Niche games I enjoy...I guess FF-series isn't much so niche, but definitely Niche on PC).

http://store.steampowered.com/app/340170/

This is a port of a PS4 game that was a port of a PSVita game. Now, they did jack to the PS4 port but give it "amazing HD resolution" with no actual ground work to textures. And I'm sure this is the same song and dance with no touch up for PC. Now, if Nivida (or AMD) decided to get their hands involved and it has Hairworks 7.0 with a 50% performance hit, I'd be fine with it. Because chances are (ignoring a poor port/optimization job) I'd probably get 300,000 frames on this game AT 2160p. I can deal with the Hairworks hit IF it actual gave the game just a little more polish.

Yes, this is like a super exaggeration, but this is what I feel is the future of PC gaming because frankly, everyone is now a "gamer" and the lowest common denominator is the money source.

 

[tential]

Ya exactly Railven. As a consumer, it sucks sure.
But it only sucks when Nvidia has a $100 premium. That's what I'm saying, there is NO massive premium on the Nvidia vs 300 lineup right now. It's good pickings... everywhere you go you got a decent performance fight with maxwell ocing very well. Meh, I wish I hadn't started playing The Witcher 2 now lol. I have so many games I could play I could have waited til next year and played it with Pascal (and I hope AMD has a competing card with VSR working VERY well but if AMD doesn't have VSR at the same levels of DSR in terms of flexibility and doesn't have HDMI 2.0 by then, it's over for me. I won't look back even, ignoring me as a customer who uses HDMI is insane. I use HDMI, it's not hard to support me, Intel made the support, Nvidia made the support, it's rude at this point.)

The ONLY way AMD is going to sell the 390x vs the GTX 980 is to drop the price.... I can't justify buying a 390x over a gtx 980 if they're teh same price when the gtx 980 does things I actually want and the 390x just has performance that I can't utilize effectively.

 

[railven]

IF AMD behave the same as NV and develop new closed source features, I'll move to console gaming. It's a cheaper platform for exclusivity gaming, I don't have to waste $1 to $2K on GPUs to run poorly optimized turds.

Ah, and I wanted to address this. But, then on consoles you have the exact same issue you don't like on PC except you don't even get the chance to run a crappy coded game. It's just completely blocked from you. As both MSFT and Sony scramble to secure deals and licensing what-not's gamers are left having to own both systems if they truly want to enjoy all the greatest franchises of gaming.

If you don't care about that, why do you care so much about a poorly coded game that one vendor touched?

(And with the hardware difference, you're already stuck with "this game runs worse on my system" syndrome. Some multiplat games are Xbone 720-900p @ 30 FPS versus PS4 versions which are 900p-1080p @ 30-45 (if not 60) FPS. You're screwed more on the console side if you ask me. And this coming from someone that owns all of them JUST for those "oohh Bloodborne" or "YES, HALO 5!!!!" moments.)

 

[railven]

Ya exactly Railven. As a consumer, it sucks sure.
But it only sucks when Nvidia has a $100 premium. That's what I'm saying, there is NO massive premium on the Nvidia vs 300 lineup right now. It's good pickings... everywhere you go you got a decent performance fight with maxwell ocing very well. Meh, I wish I hadn't started playing The Witcher 2 now lol. I have so many games I could play I could have waited til next year and played it with Pascal (and I hope AMD has a competing card with VSR working VERY well but if AMD doesn't have VSR at the same levels of DSR in terms of flexibility and doesn't have HDMI 2.0 by then, it's over for me. I won't look back even, ignoring me as a customer who uses HDMI is insane. I use HDMI, it's not hard to support me, Intel made the support, Nvidia made the support, it's rude at this point.)

The ONLY way AMD is going to sell the 390x vs the GTX 980 is to drop the price.... I can't justify buying a 390x over a gtx 980 if they're teh same price when the gtx 980 does things I actually want and the 390x just has performance that I can't utilize effectively.

That is what sold me to GTX 780 Lightning, and that is what sold me to GTX 980 Ti. For once, Nvidia wasn't charging me MORE just to own them. When a good portion of the metrics were equal, including the price, that ones that weren't equal tipped me in one direction.

I said it some where else, I had no problems when my Radeons were slower, but I was fine because it cost 20-25% less than the 10-15% performance difference. And when the rumors for Fury X were hitting space, I said if it's 90% of GTX Titan and cost less than it (at the time assuming a GTX 980 Ti would be $800) I'd be fine with it too. But, both same price, and one has a little more in the bag. Sorry AMD.