Water Heater Rant!

[JeepinEd]

My gas water heater started leaking over the weekend, so I though I would look into tankless heaters.
I did a search on this site and found several people who recommended Renni tankles water heaters, so I checked for prices.
On the net, I found them at approx $1100, but could not purchase them because they only sell them to licensed plumbers.
I called a few of the local plumbers and they are quoting me $2500!!!! WTF? I know they have to make a profit, but this is ridiculous!

Has anyone had experience with other tankless water heaters??
I know Home Depot carries Paloma & Bosch, but I don't know how good these are.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[NanoStuff]

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dl...Postal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=

 

[drinkmorejava]

Can you just say, "I'm a licensed plumber" or do they actually want you to fax something in, even then, google ftw

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

If they have a profit margin that high then try asking them to cut you a deal, they should be willing to work on the price. Also, look into warranty validity if purchased online, sometimes the warranty will only be valid if it was purchased through a licensed vendor.

 

[BillGates]

We had a discussion here about tankless water heaters a month or two and my opinion of them has changed. I don't really want one anymore.


This article was posted - it's very informative.

 

[JeepinEd]

They do ask for your license# and it is only warrantied if installed by a licensed plumber.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
My gas water heater started leaking over the weekend, so I though I would look into tankless heaters.
I did a search on this site and found several people who recommended Renni tankles water heaters, so I checked for prices.
On the net, I found them at approx $1100, but could not purchase them because they only sell them to licensed plumbers.
I called a few of the local plumbers and they are quoting me $2500!!!! WTF? I know they have to make a profit, but this is ridiculous!

Has anyone had experience with other tankless water heaters??
I know Home Depot carries Paloma & Bosch, but I don't know how good these are.

Thanks,

Ed

A 50 point margin (what you call a 100% markup) is not unreasonable in a retail environment. It's all about return on investment no matter how much the item costs.

That having been said, is the price $2500 installed? Does the manufacturer pre-pay the freight to the plumber? Is the plumber including an install kit with the purchase of the HWH?

 

[SampSon]

On-demand hot water heaters arn't all they are cracked up to be.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: SampSon
On-demand hot water heaters arn't all they are cracked up to be.

..Ive seen em at home depot. Special mounting criteria needs to be met and some of em are noisy..sound like a jet or a loud blow torch. I kept my 50 gallon tank water heater cause I like the idea of having 50 gal of emergency water on hand all the time.

 

[brxndxn]

Originally posted by: SampSon
On-demand hot water heaters arn't all they are cracked up to be.

Agreed.. I used to work in plumbing in Home Depot and so many people wanted to buy them. The people that actually already had them usually came in to buy standard water heaters.

Basically.. most tankless water heaters allow you to heat enough water for ONE item at a time.. that means.. ONE shower, ONE dishwasher, ONE washer, etc.. So, if you're the only person who lives in the house and you never run the dishwasher, washer, and showers simultaneously, then maybe it's a good idea..

But then again.. A top-of-the-line 80 gallon water heater (wayy plenty for a 4-person home) is like $500.. A tankless water heater is $1000? How long does it take to recoup $500 in saved electricity..

 

[FP]

Originally posted by: BillGates
We had a discussion here about tankless water heaters a month or two and my opinion of them has changed. I don't really want one anymore.


This article was posted - it's very informative.

Interesting. Good article.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
My gas water heater started leaking over the weekend, so I though I would look into tankless heaters.
I did a search on this site and found several people who recommended Renni tankles water heaters, so I checked for prices.
On the net, I found them at approx $1100, but could not purchase them because they only sell them to licensed plumbers.
I called a few of the local plumbers and they are quoting me $2500!!!! WTF? I know they have to make a profit, but this is ridiculous!

Has anyone had experience with other tankless water heaters??
I know Home Depot carries Paloma & Bosch, but I don't know how good these are.

Thanks,

Ed

A 50 point margin (what you call a 100% markup) is not unreasonable in a retail environment. It's all about return on investment no matter how much the item costs.

That having been said, is the price $2500 installed? Does the manufacturer pre-pay the freight to the plumber? Is the plumber including an install kit with the purchase of the HWH?

There is a Renni dealer close to my house, as well as all the plumbers I called. All they have to do is go to the dealer & get one. All the hardware is already included. The price does include installation, which they said would take about 2 hours. There is an extra charge if I want them to dispose of my old water heater!

I still think that charging $1100 to go to the local store, pick one up and install it in less than 2 hours is too much.

Maybe I'm just cheap.

 

[j00fek]

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Can you just say, "I'm a licensed plumber" or do they actually want you to fax something in, even then, google ftw

:thumbsup:

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: BillGates
We had a discussion here about tankless water heaters a month or two and my opinion of them has changed. I don't really want one anymore.


This article was posted - it's very informative.

Good article!

I may have to reconsider my plan of attack.

One of the main reasons I was looking into a tankless was the amount of space it takes up in my garage. I figured I may be able to install a water softener where the heater tank now resides.

 

[43st]

Our apartment has an on-demand system that provides both hot water and heat (base board and heated tile). Our Jan. bill from Central Hudson Gas & Elec. was $90 for both gas (heating, hot water, stove) and electric. Our electric bill is usually between $50-$60 so that's $30-$40 for January heat and hot water. This was much cheaper than what some of my coworkers were paying for heat this past winter.

 

[alfa147x]

Ebay, W00T

 

[JinLien]

1. Tankless is a cool thing to have.
2. Tankless save engergy bill if it is mounted close to the faucet that you intended to use.

For most application tankless isn't going to work well if it take 5-6 second or longer for the hot water to reach your faucets (water speed is roughly 6 feet per second), because the wasted water will negate any energy saving that tankless have over traditional tank design. Another thing to think about is the delivery rate of a tankless water heater for your house hold consumption. Also keep in mind that a high volume heater with high BTU rating will require more energy, therefore your existing wiring may not be adequate for the draw that may require rewiring. Best to get a smaller tank with good insulation that have fast recovery rate if wasted energy is a concern.

The only time that tankless work well if the piping run is relatively short such as a RV or industrial washroom that have a bank of wash basin all conected together in a short run.

Plumbing codes in many area require a licences plumber to install tankless water heater therefor it could be the reason that tankless water heater can only purchase at licenses distributors in your area.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: BillGates
We had a discussion here about tankless water heaters a month or two and my opinion of them has changed. I don't really want one anymore.


This article was posted - it's very informative.

Good article!

I may have to reconsider my plan of attack.

One of the main reasons I was looking into a tankless was the amount of space it takes up in my garage. I figured I may be able to install a water softener where the heater tank now resides.

Water softener is only needed if you have hard water problems. Water softener tanks tend to be thinner than hot water tank therefore it shouldn't take that much of space. There are short & fat softener tanks that is design to hide under cabinet that can be use if space is a concern.

 

[ballmode]

Make sure you check your a/c for mice

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: JinLien

1. Tankless is a cool thing to have.
2. Tankless save engergy bill if it is mounted close to the faucet that you intended to use.

For most application tankless isn't going to work well if it take 5-6 second or longer for the hot water to reach your faucets (water speed is roughly 6 feet per second), because the wasted water will negate any energy saving that tankless have over traditional tank design. Another thing to think about is the delivery rate of a tankless water heater for your house hold consumption. Also keep in mind that a high volume heater with high BTU rating will require more energy therefore your existing wiring may not be adequate for the draw therefore it may require rewiring for it. Best to get a smaller tank with good insulation that have fast recovery rate if wasted energy is a concern.

The only time that tankless work well if the piping run is relatively short such as a RV or industrial washroom that have a bank of wash basin all conected together in a short run.

Plumbing codes in many area require a licences plumber to install tankless water heater therefor it could be the reason that tankless water heater can only purchase at licenses distributors in your area.

This would be a Natural Gas heater, so electric consuption should be negligeble.
Local stores do sell tankless heaters. It's only Renni, that sells only to licensed contractors. The models that Home Depot carry just don't provide the same amount of GPM's as the Renni or Noritz (at least the ones that I saw).

The article that was linked a few posts ago is very interesting. My only thought is that I live in the Peoples Republic of California. The weather is much warmer here, so the incoming water temp is not nearly as cold.

I'd like to talk to people who have these installed to see what they think. I'm just hoping the leak in my current heater won't get worse while I figure out what the heck I'm going to do.

Stupid water heaters...

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: JinLien
1. Tankless is a cool thing to have.
2. Tankless save engergy bill if it is mounted close to the faucet that you intended to use.

For most application tankless isn't going to work well if it take 5-6 second or longer for the hot water to reach your faucets (water speed is roughly 6 feet per second), because the wasted water will negate any energy saving that tankless have over traditional tank design. Another thing to think about is the delivery rate of a tankless water heater for your house hold consumption. Also keep in mind that a high volume heater with high BTU rating will require more energy, therefore your existing wiring may not be adequate for the draw that may require rewiring. Best to get a smaller tank with good insulation that have fast recovery rate if wasted energy is a concern.

The only time that tankless work well if the piping run is relatively short such as a RV or industrial washroom that have a bank of wash basin all conected together in a short run.

Plumbing codes in many area require a licences plumber to install tankless water heater therefor it could be the reason that tankless water heater can only purchase at licenses distributors in your area.

Ours goes over 50 ft. at its furthest faucet and it's exactly the same as a tank system (distance wise). It saves energy because it doesn't need to heat through the day and night, only when we're using it. 50' of pipe certainly doesn't negate that savings.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: JinLien

1. Tankless is a cool thing to have.
2. Tankless save engergy bill if it is mounted close to the faucet that you intended to use.

For most application tankless isn't going to work well if it take 5-6 second or longer for the hot water to reach your faucets (water speed is roughly 6 feet per second), because the wasted water will negate any energy saving that tankless have over traditional tank design. Another thing to think about is the delivery rate of a tankless water heater for your house hold consumption. Also keep in mind that a high volume heater with high BTU rating will require more energy therefore your existing wiring may not be adequate for the draw therefore it may require rewiring for it. Best to get a smaller tank with good insulation that have fast recovery rate if wasted energy is a concern.

The only time that tankless work well if the piping run is relatively short such as a RV or industrial washroom that have a bank of wash basin all conected together in a short run.

Plumbing codes in many area require a licences plumber to install tankless water heater therefor it could be the reason that tankless water heater can only purchase at licenses distributors in your area.

This would be a Natural Gas heater, so electric consuption should be negligeble.
Local stores do sell tankless heaters. It's only Renni, that sells only to licensed contractors. The models that Home Depot carry just don't provide the same amount of GPM's as the Renni or Noritz (at least the ones that I saw).

The article that was linked a few posts ago is very interesting. My only thought is that I live in the Peoples Republic of California. The weather is much warmer here, so the incoming water temp is not nearly as cold.

I'd like to talk to people who have these installed to see what they think. I'm just hoping the leak in my current heater won't get worse while I figure out what the heck I'm going to do.

Stupid water heaters...

Sorry, misses the gas part, but the wasted water would be the same and the only different is that you wouldn?t need to rewire for the tankless.

Yike! leak in WT is serious. Turn off power to your WT and put your hand over the casing to find the hot spot. You have a leak if the tank is hot to the touch & it is a time bomb if there is a leak, because the hole can grow quickly due to the water pressure drilling though the metal. You could end up with quite a mess when come home from a long day at work.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: JinLien
1. Tankless is a cool thing to have.
2. Tankless save engergy bill if it is mounted close to the faucet that you intended to use.

For most application tankless isn't going to work well if it take 5-6 second or longer for the hot water to reach your faucets (water speed is roughly 6 feet per second), because the wasted water will negate any energy saving that tankless have over traditional tank design. Another thing to think about is the delivery rate of a tankless water heater for your house hold consumption. Also keep in mind that a high volume heater with high BTU rating will require more energy, therefore your existing wiring may not be adequate for the draw that may require rewiring. Best to get a smaller tank with good insulation that have fast recovery rate if wasted energy is a concern.

The only time that tankless work well if the piping run is relatively short such as a RV or industrial washroom that have a bank of wash basin all conected together in a short run.

Plumbing codes in many area require a licences plumber to install tankless water heater therefor it could be the reason that tankless water heater can only purchase at licenses distributors in your area.

Ours goes over 50 ft. at its furthest faucet and it's exactly the same as a tank system (distance wise). It saves energy because it doesn't need to heat through the day and night, only when we're using it. 50' of pipe certainly doesn't negate that savings.

Depends on the usage, but if you have kids that constantly washing their hands during the day therefore a tankless system may not be the best thing if they have to flush the water to wait for heated water. For a warm region a tankless may work well because washing hands don't require heated water. And, in your case a tankless system may prove to work to your advantage because the water line is heated up by your ambience building heat therefore you don't need to flush the line & wait for heated water. (neighbors heat save your engergy...I once live in a condo here in Canada & I my energy bills in the summer & winter is less than $17 CAD per month, because I didn't need to turn on my heat)

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: JinLien

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: BillGates
We had a discussion here about tankless water heaters a month or two and my opinion of them has changed. I don't really want one anymore.


This article was posted - it's very informative.

Good article!

I may have to reconsider my plan of attack.

One of the main reasons I was looking into a tankless was the amount of space it takes up in my garage. I figured I may be able to install a water softener where the heater tank now resides.

Water softener is only needed if you have hard water problems. Water softener tanks tend to be thinner than hot water tank therefore it shouldn't take that much of space. There are short & fat softener tanks that is design to hide under cabinet that can be use if space is a concern.

I do have hard water problems. My water heater and central air heater are both in a little closet located in the garage. If I wanted to install the softener right now, I would have to put it on the garage floor, which would consume valuable space.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: JinLien

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: JinLien

1. Tankless is a cool thing to have.
2. Tankless save engergy bill if it is mounted close to the faucet that you intended to use.

For most application tankless isn't going to work well if it take 5-6 second or longer for the hot water to reach your faucets (water speed is roughly 6 feet per second), because the wasted water will negate any energy saving that tankless have over traditional tank design. Another thing to think about is the delivery rate of a tankless water heater for your house hold consumption. Also keep in mind that a high volume heater with high BTU rating will require more energy therefore your existing wiring may not be adequate for the draw therefore it may require rewiring for it. Best to get a smaller tank with good insulation that have fast recovery rate if wasted energy is a concern.

The only time that tankless work well if the piping run is relatively short such as a RV or industrial washroom that have a bank of wash basin all conected together in a short run.

Plumbing codes in many area require a licences plumber to install tankless water heater therefor it could be the reason that tankless water heater can only purchase at licenses distributors in your area.

This would be a Natural Gas heater, so electric consuption should be negligeble.
Local stores do sell tankless heaters. It's only Renni, that sells only to licensed contractors. The models that Home Depot carry just don't provide the same amount of GPM's as the Renni or Noritz (at least the ones that I saw).

The article that was linked a few posts ago is very interesting. My only thought is that I live in the Peoples Republic of California. The weather is much warmer here, so the incoming water temp is not nearly as cold.

I'd like to talk to people who have these installed to see what they think. I'm just hoping the leak in my current heater won't get worse while I figure out what the heck I'm going to do.

Stupid water heaters...

Sorry, misses the gas part, but the wasted water would be the same and the only different is that you wouldn?t need to rewire for the tankless.

Yike! leak in WT is serious. Turn off power to your WT and put your hand over the casing to find the hot spot. You have a leak if the tank is hot to the touch & it is a time bomb if there is a leak, because the hole can grow quickly due to the water pressure drilling though the metal. You could end up with quite a mess when come home from a long day at work.

You're scaring the living S#!% out of me! I haven't raised my wife's life insurance yet. (kidding)
I think the leak is comming from a corroded thread. It's a slow drip eminating from the area where the hot water pipe connects to the tank. It's also leaving a trail of brown sludge behind. (Am I bathing in that?)