Water heater crapped out

[SphinxnihpS]

DIY easy as pie.

 

[Engineer]

You don't need a bladder to prevent overpressure due to expansion. Your tank must already have a pressure relief valve (usually a combined temperature-pressure valve and a second backup pressure relief valve).

The purpose of the bladder is to prevent the expanded water from being discharged via the pressure relief valve and wasted.

I knew that you didn't need it and, in my opinion, it's a worthless piece of code added in there just to for an extra install of something else. However, it will allow protection (some) in the event of a pressure valve failure. It's code in KY and a few other states that I know of.

As for your other items, good advise all the way around! :thumbsup:

 

[Modelworks]

Umm. No.

Softened water is no more corrosive than the hard water that was treated. In fact, it is likely to prolong the life of the heater, by avoiding scale build-up (which builds up first on hot-spots on the heat exchanger, thereby exacerbating it's own formation). The reason is that the process of cation exchange does not change the total cationic equivalent molarity of the water.

Water heater manufacturers disagree.


http://www.americanwaterheater.com/support/bulletins/Ta_1041.pdf

 

[Mark R]

Water heater manufacturers disagree.
http://www.americanwaterheater.com/support/bulletins/Ta_1041.pdf

They have misquoted (and misunderstood) the EPA's advice.

The EPA specifically state that the advice is only for naturally soft water. The EPA have published a lengthy explanatory note, because of confusion on this point, that this does not apply to cation exchange softened water.

 

[HeXen]

mine's on eleven years. I was considering one of those Hybrids. Although i never replaced a water heater, it appears simple enough to do oneself.
However i keep putting it off. Now my furnace was a different story. i wasnt about to try that myself without knowing what i'm doing. luckily i knew someone who did it for a living.

 

[JoeMcJoe]

I've had an electric hybrid for over a year, works well, saves quite a bit of power.
It can be powered off a small generator too, as its power draw is less.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I haved had mine for 25 years still works great . In summer it cost $20 a month to run . I don't know winter cost as it a gas water heater. As is my stove and house heater and garage is gas water boiler floor heat .All installed by me . If ya want a job done correctly do it yourself.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I knew that you didn't need it and, in my opinion, it's a worthless piece of code added in there just to for an extra install of something else. However, it will allow protection (some) in the event of a pressure valve failure. It's code in KY and a few other states that I know of.

As for your other items, good advise all the way around! :thumbsup:

Actually its very useful when filling and maintaining a closed loop. I would never run a house garage boiler without one . I have mine setup at 4 psi . I also have feeders which I pressureize the system to 10PSI so water is pushed into the bladder. I do this every year . Its a very good safty for not running boiler low on water.

 

[Sixguns]

So get this. I drive an hour to go pick my new one up from the only store that has it ( local business which I am glad to take my money). When I get into town its rush hour so I call the store and talk to the owner and let him know that I am almost there but the traffic is making be run a little late. He tells me that if I am not there by 5 after closing that "I am out of luck and to come back tomorrow". Now I would think that a local business would be willing to help out someone by staying open a few extra minutes to make some money. I guess not. Lesson learned.

 

[slag]

yup, sounds like that store is one to avoid. If he's this way with a potential customer, how's he going to be if you have an issue and need help from him once he has your money?

 

[rsutoratosu]

Good to know, I just looked up my anodes, its only 30 bucks.. gonna go home and check.. I have an AO smith with 10 year warranty, its only 2 years old now but I rather check now

If your tank went in under 3 years, pull out the anode, I bet there is nothing left of it.
Nobody every discusses the anode in hot water heaters and it is the one part that will make your heater last the longest.
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-anodes.html


Also you should be draining your tank once a year. Hook a garden hose to the valve at the bottom and drain out all the sediment.

 

[GregGreen]

Water heater manufacturers disagree.


http://www.americanwaterheater.com/support/bulletins/Ta_1041.pdf

That article mentioned NOTHING about how they could be detrimental to hot water systems. Also, a PROPERLY installed water softening system would be installed after the hot water heater.

 

[GregGreen]

Actually its very useful when filling and maintaining a closed loop. I would never run a house garage boiler without one . I have mine setup at 4 psi . I also have feeders which I pressureize the system to 10PSI so water is pushed into the bladder. I do this every year . Its a very good safty for not running boiler low on water.

A bladder tank is ABSOLUTELY necessary in a hot water heat system as you described. What was talked about before was a bladder tank on the potable hot water supply, which can be code some places or just necessary if you have issues in other places. Unless you have a hot water heater that runs off your boiler system (the best system if you have a hot water boiler instead of a furnace), the two aren't even connected.

 

[GregGreen]

So get this. I drive an hour to go pick my new one up from the only store that has it ( local business which I am glad to take my money). When I get into town its rush hour so I call the store and talk to the owner and let him know that I am almost there but the traffic is making be run a little late. He tells me that if I am not there by 5 after closing that "I am out of luck and to come back tomorrow". Now I would think that a local business would be willing to help out someone by staying open a few extra minutes to make some money. I guess not. Lesson learned.

I'm guessing you were going to go to a smaller supply house. I don't blame them for closing at 5. I'm honestly surprised they were willing to sell a gas appliance to you at all. The company I used to work for (a large plumbing and heating wholesaler) would only sell gas appliances to licensed and bonded contractors. Too many people who don't know what they are doing (not saying this is you) are out there blowing themselves up with stuff they have no business installing.

Also, licensed and bonded contractors didn't always know what they were doing, but it was on their insurance... I hope that makes sense to ATOT.

 

[alfa147x]

IMO, no. The ones I've seen don't keep up with demand very well. I know a couple of people who use them to supplement their normal water heater.

Mine is getting old. I checked the other day, between purchase price, installation, and city permits...$1100-$1300...

city permits? Really? Just to replace a water heater?

 

[GregGreen]

After reading this thread I have several comments as someone formerly involved in the plumbing and heating wholesale trade.

1. Tankless heaters are almost never the best decision at this point in time. Direct-Vent stuff is the way to go right now (in terms of cost/benefit). I would never have recommended a tankless heater (especially in the NE, where the incoming water temperatures get down to 35ish degrees). Something to especially walk away from are ELECTRIC tankless heaters. The type of circuit you need to run one properly would probably cost more to install than running the least efficient traditional water heater for 15 years. There are some circumstances that it makes sense (summer homes, etc.), but for most people. Bad idea.

2. Some of the prices quoted for water heaters from Home Depot or Lowes or whatever are unreasonably low. I know they carry a different product (just like Walmart carries a lesser product) but those prices mentioned here are TOO low. A contractor can't even buy a cheap tank for that price (you know, one with a good warranty) unless they are also buying from the big box stores. If the homeowner the OP bought the house from in the first place had paid for a good tank in the first place, the tank would still be under warranty!

3. I mentioned in an earlier post I mentioned that the company I used to work for (a heating, cooling, and plumbing wholesaler) made an effort to only sell gas appliances to licensed and bonded contractors. A good contractor won't run you much more than you would pay for a good tank. A good contractor will take a look at your needs and actually recommend something that will fit your needs. I recommend calling a good contractor. They will usually fix stuff that breaks for free or cheap, even if it isn't their fault. It's worth it. Good contractors are worth your business.

4. In point 3 I talked about good contractors. I just wanted to clarify that good contractors aren't necessarily expensive contractors. In the market I previously sold to, the best contractors were RARELY the most expensive. In fact, the two most expensive contractors are the two contractors I would NEVER have work on my own home or recommend. Just sayin'.

 

[paperfist]

A bladder tank is ABSOLUTELY necessary in a hot water heat system as you described. What was talked about before was a bladder tank on the potable hot water supply, which can be code some places or just necessary if you have issues in other places. Unless you have a hot water heater that runs off your boiler system (the best system if you have a hot water boiler instead of a furnace), the two aren't even connected.

Do you have a hot water boiler setup? My hot water heater is leaking and needs to be replaced. I was thinking of getting a setup for my boiler, but wondered what the operational costs would be in the non-winter months.

----

And installing a hot water heater is easy if you know what your doing. It doesn't take much to screw up the gas line portion and end up with a gas leak...

 

[sdifox]

Ouch.

Water heaters are one of those things that every man should know how to change out. Its not too difficult, a few water connections, perhaps extending or reducing the pipe a bit depending on water heater size, connecting the electrical up or gas if so equipped, and finally, if gas fired, hooking up the chimney.

Permit? What permit. Why pay someone for something simple in your house they will never know about. I don't do permits for wear and tear items. You aren't adding to anything, but simply replacing existing that has failed.

I replaced a water heater about 5 yrs back. Set me back about $400.00 and a couple hours from start to finish. Neat little trick about sweating copper pipe that has water dripping out of it. Take a few slices of white bread, rip out the center, roll it into a ball, and insert it up in the pipe. It stops water drips for a few minutes and allows you to sweat your copper tubing and keep it dry. When you turn the water back on, the bread flushes down the pipe, dissolves, and goes through the system, none the worse for wear.

you should get rid of the chimney ones and switch to direct power vent for safety. One pipe intake, one pipe exaust right to outside.

 

[BoomerD]

city permits? Really? Just to replace a water heater?

Yep. Permit and inspection...$110.

 

[slag]

That article mentioned NOTHING about how they could be detrimental to hot water systems. Also, a PROPERLY installed water softening system would be installed after the hot water heater.

No no no.

Last thing you want is hot water going into a composite water softener.

Hague, who I have, specifically states:

2. Install the appliance before the water heater.
and
Do not install if the incoming or outlet piping water temperature exceeds 120°F (49°C).

 

[slag]

you should get rid of the chimney ones and switch to direct power vent for safety. One pipe intake, one pipe exaust right to outside.

My existing setup has a vent to the roof. Why would I want to change it?

 

[Sixguns]

No no no.

Last thing you want is hot water going into a composite water softener.

Hague, who I have, specifically states:

2. Install the appliance before the water heater.
and
Do not install if the incoming or outlet piping water temperature exceeds 120°F (49°C).

My water softner is the first thing all my water goes through. The water is so hard where I live its not even funny. Since I am still waiting for my water heater to show up. What are some things I can do to help prolong the life of it? I will be using a sealed combustion water heater which sucks because all the models sold in my area only come with a 1 year warrenty on parts and the tank. So that being said, I really want this one to last.

 

[nickbits]

My existing setup has a vent to the roof. Why would I want to change it?

They are more energy efficient. That's why they use PVC for the exhaust--not as much heat is wasted. Plus they have no pilot light.

 

[GregGreen]

No no no.

Last thing you want is hot water going into a composite water softener.

Hague, who I have, specifically states:

2. Install the appliance before the water heater.
and
Do not install if the incoming or outlet piping water temperature exceeds 120°F (49°C).

I meant that you would install it after the hot water heater is branched off the main line, so that you would only be softening the cold water, but I was wrong to say that as well. I was thinking purifiers, not softeners. You get benefits from having your hot water soft, but purified hot water is rarely something you would need. I guess I get the dumbass of the day award.

 

[GregGreen]

Do you have a hot water boiler setup? My hot water heater is leaking and needs to be replaced. I was thinking of getting a setup for my boiler, but wondered what the operational costs would be in the non-winter months.

Sorry, I don't personally have one. Theoretically, even in summer it would be cheaper to run because a boiler is much more efficient than your standard hot water heater. If you have a high efficiency boiler (90+), I think it's a no brainer. There were the same type of tax credits for these units that there were for ultra-high efficiency traditional water heaters and tankless heaters, but 99% sure those ended already.