My friend and me are both building new computers. We are waiting for the Nforce 4 chipset to be out like everone here. We are gonna get a AMD 64 3500 processor, and everything the same except the heatsink. He wants to get a watercooling system because he said it will be less dust, and you can really overclock the CPU getting the AMD to almost 3.0 gig. Well the watercooling system is about 200 bucks or more. That is a lot of money to spend on a heatsink. My question was that is it really worth buying a 200 dollar heatsink or could you buy maybe a 50 buck one and get almost the same performance out of that. I have heard that you can overclock AMDs even with stock heatsinks, so im just wondering if its worth getting a water cooling heatsink. THANKS!!!
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water cooling is it worth it?
- Thread starter gamerxx13
- Start date
You can overclock the 3500 just fine without water cooling. The water cooling MIGHT allow a slightly higher overclock, but I doubt that one could overclock a 3500 to 3.0ghz without using a peltier + water cooling or a phase-change cooling system. The water cooling also might be quieter, but if you get a good fan, a heatsink can be just as quiet. I would reccommend going with a regular heatsink such as a Thermalright SLK-948.
lobadobadingdong
Lifer
he's a noob, give him some slack, this ain't Off Topic 😉
0roo0roo
No Lifer
see he has to consider how far he can clock it on air. then figure out the extra mhz he gets on water. then he can know how much those extra mhz over air overclocking are really worth per mhz😉 probably over a hundred bux for a couple hundred mhz difference on a p4.. possibly less on amd😛 and thats being extremely generous...doubt u can get much of a oc difference compared to a good hsf with good case cooling
Granorense
Senior member
I can tell by reading your signature!!! 😉
HardWarrior
Diamond Member
Whether WCing is worth it or not is something that you have to decide for yourself based on myriad factors that are specific to your circumstances. Do you have the cash to do it right? Is the stabilty inherent in water-cooling (in both stock and overclocked environments) something that you value? Can you spend the time needed to understand it to the point where you're comfortable with the process?
Root around the FAQ's and guides located here as a starting point. The only honest way to know whether you'll be satisfied with water-cooling is to understand its mechanics for yourself. The best you'll get in a place like this is individuals trying to replicate what they themselves prefer, for whatever reason.
If you think water-cooling will lower your maintenance, then you are incorrect. Although a high-flow HSF setup needs a good spray with the can of compressed air once every month or two, water systems often require you to refill water reservoirs just as often.
Furthermore, it takes more than just a waterblock on your CPU to push system limits. You often need top notch power supplies that pump out clean power, high quality mainboards that can supply plenty of voltage, speedy memory chips that can clock to those high FSB speeds, and good cooling for your northbridge chip.
Agreed. I?d much rather spend $100 on high quality fans. For example, Zalman makes several quality HSF solutions, including this $50 radial copper monster. Thermalright also makes this $65 heatsink/heatpipe hybrid which can accept a 120mm fan. Add on $20 to $35 for a beefy chipset fan, and you are on your way to very good, although not insane overclocking.
HardWarrior
Diamond Member
You're SO wrong on this, dude. Beyond having to dust the rad every couple of months, water is easy.
I second HardWarrior. The water stays in the loop. It's got no where to go, no where to evaporate. Why would you have to refill?
I've also read somewhere that watercooling a standard is inevitable as computer componentry many reach the point where ONLY watercooling will be efficient enough to cool things down.
I've also read somewhere that watercooling a standard is inevitable as computer componentry many reach the point where ONLY watercooling will be efficient enough to cool things down.
HardWarrior
Diamond Member
I agree. Water coolers that meet this criteria will have to be completely maintenance free and relatively tiny compared to what we have today. Exotic heat-pipe cooling may be another possble avenue.
BonzaiDuck
Lifer
I have a question which I intend to use in starting another thread. But I saw this, and thought I would add two cents worth.
Given my connection to microcomputers going back to 1982, I should have built a water-cooled system by now. Every time I go to the Pomona Computer Fair, I find myself looking wistfully at the Reserator demostration setups, the Swiftech radiators, the array of components and clear plastic tubing.
My friend across town and I built our latest (last) generation socket-478 pentium 4's during the last six months or so, and it became something of a competition. The friend has also been a "Jeeper" in his life, he has two jeeps with the engines all rigged out in chrome . . . an inveterate do-it-yourselfer.
Around June, I visited his house and discovered that he had accumulated what he described as $135 dollars worth of 4"-diameter PVC tubing and fittings to build a "Reserator"-type reservoir, the water blocks, a used auto-transmission radiator fitted to a plywood frame with two 120mm fans affixed to it, a water pump, and so on. He said "When you 'kick-my-azz' over-clocking your air-cooled system, that's when I'm going to set this baby up." But it is unclear who kicked who's . . . I'm satisfied with my 3.0C OC'd to 3.8 on air-cooling. And so, he never installed his home-made water-cooling rig -- not yet.
Instead, I spent the summer buying and testing fans. I KNOW I've spent as much on fans, many now packed into my hall-closet, as I would've spent on a Koolance EXOS system. But I know my air-cooling options, and I've taken it about as far as it goes. Except that I should probably rent a small mall-shop somewhere to set up a "fan-store".
My problem with water-cooling, despite all the manufacturers' assertions and even encouragement from Tom's Hardware Guide, involves the ever-so-miniscule threat to your system if you spring a leak, but also what seems like an extreme if your water-cooling rig isn't self-contained in the computer case -- umbilical water hoses, external reservoirs, the whole enchilada. Unless you go with phase-change or one of those more extreme refrigerative options, the only thing water buys you is cooling to a limit of room-temperature. Unless, of course, you do what some other over-clocker did, which was to bury his reservoir outside the house about six-feet under and run the hoses indoors. His water temperature is a constant 55F. Or another guy, who got a used water-cooler (the kind used in offices where people stand around and gossip about computers), to provide "refrigerated" water-cooling to his system. But then again, there you have the complication of condensation and the need to mitigate condensation and the same threat posed by leaks from a basic water-cooling system.
With the proper air-cooling, you might be able to approach room-temperature with only a 7 to 10F difference between room and idle CPU values. And with the right heatsink-heatpipe-fan combination, you might be able to clamp your load temperatures to within 14F of the idle CPU value. With water, maybe you can halve those differences -- maybe you can almost eliminate them, but they shouldn't be critical to your over-clocking effort.
True. No noise; no dust. But count on checking your case from time to time for leaks, and generally, maintenance to replace using compressed air for cleaning out dust-bunnies. And of course, if you want to move your computer, you have to unplug the reservoir.
I still may do it -- maybe next year. But "simple is best", and water-cooling just adds additional complexity to your system. If a good fan for a ThermalRight XP120 costs $14, and you can have the XP120 for as little as $48 -- with options like the Zalman CNPS-7700-Cu, the Gigabyte Ultra Rocket and some other models -- you can save more than just money in time and trouble.
I can focus my quest on simplicity to simply finding ways to reduce the number of fans while getting the same air-cooling efficiency.
Given my connection to microcomputers going back to 1982, I should have built a water-cooled system by now. Every time I go to the Pomona Computer Fair, I find myself looking wistfully at the Reserator demostration setups, the Swiftech radiators, the array of components and clear plastic tubing.
My friend across town and I built our latest (last) generation socket-478 pentium 4's during the last six months or so, and it became something of a competition. The friend has also been a "Jeeper" in his life, he has two jeeps with the engines all rigged out in chrome . . . an inveterate do-it-yourselfer.
Around June, I visited his house and discovered that he had accumulated what he described as $135 dollars worth of 4"-diameter PVC tubing and fittings to build a "Reserator"-type reservoir, the water blocks, a used auto-transmission radiator fitted to a plywood frame with two 120mm fans affixed to it, a water pump, and so on. He said "When you 'kick-my-azz' over-clocking your air-cooled system, that's when I'm going to set this baby up." But it is unclear who kicked who's . . . I'm satisfied with my 3.0C OC'd to 3.8 on air-cooling. And so, he never installed his home-made water-cooling rig -- not yet.
Instead, I spent the summer buying and testing fans. I KNOW I've spent as much on fans, many now packed into my hall-closet, as I would've spent on a Koolance EXOS system. But I know my air-cooling options, and I've taken it about as far as it goes. Except that I should probably rent a small mall-shop somewhere to set up a "fan-store".
My problem with water-cooling, despite all the manufacturers' assertions and even encouragement from Tom's Hardware Guide, involves the ever-so-miniscule threat to your system if you spring a leak, but also what seems like an extreme if your water-cooling rig isn't self-contained in the computer case -- umbilical water hoses, external reservoirs, the whole enchilada. Unless you go with phase-change or one of those more extreme refrigerative options, the only thing water buys you is cooling to a limit of room-temperature. Unless, of course, you do what some other over-clocker did, which was to bury his reservoir outside the house about six-feet under and run the hoses indoors. His water temperature is a constant 55F. Or another guy, who got a used water-cooler (the kind used in offices where people stand around and gossip about computers), to provide "refrigerated" water-cooling to his system. But then again, there you have the complication of condensation and the need to mitigate condensation and the same threat posed by leaks from a basic water-cooling system.
With the proper air-cooling, you might be able to approach room-temperature with only a 7 to 10F difference between room and idle CPU values. And with the right heatsink-heatpipe-fan combination, you might be able to clamp your load temperatures to within 14F of the idle CPU value. With water, maybe you can halve those differences -- maybe you can almost eliminate them, but they shouldn't be critical to your over-clocking effort.
True. No noise; no dust. But count on checking your case from time to time for leaks, and generally, maintenance to replace using compressed air for cleaning out dust-bunnies. And of course, if you want to move your computer, you have to unplug the reservoir.
I still may do it -- maybe next year. But "simple is best", and water-cooling just adds additional complexity to your system. If a good fan for a ThermalRight XP120 costs $14, and you can have the XP120 for as little as $48 -- with options like the Zalman CNPS-7700-Cu, the Gigabyte Ultra Rocket and some other models -- you can save more than just money in time and trouble.
I can focus my quest on simplicity to simply finding ways to reduce the number of fans while getting the same air-cooling efficiency.
I like watercooling for a variety of reasons, and I suppose I have a strong disposition to it because of my history with it. Back in the day I used to air cool my Athlon 1.333GHz with an OZC Gladiator with a Delta fan. If any of you remember the delta fans, those things were crazy. They were all about power and speed regardless of noise, and boy were they noisy. 7K RPM, enough to seriously chop up your finger, and of course it sounded like a power tool was constantly on inside your system. Eventually I got fed up with the noise and looked for alternatives, and that's when I came upon watercooling. Back in that day watercooling was still in its infancy. There was no Cather and Little WW. Una was still working at procooling. People were just beginning to figure out peltier cooling. The main players if I can remember were Danger Den, Dtek, and a little bit of Koolance. No Swiftech. No Innovatek. Back then watercooling was just a fringe thing that not many people did, and that was what made it so fun. Just the thought of mixing water with computers made many peoples' eyes go wide. The silence of the systems. The fat tubing look. The 120mm fans that were BAM right in your face.
I wasn't a huge overclocker because my Athlon just wouldn't overclock well, so I ran my watercooled system at stock for all that time before finally upgrading to a 2000+ when they reached $50. But I never regretted one day of it. It was a big investment, yes. I didn't overclock with it, yes. But it made me happy and satiated my appetite for tinkering and creating something that was truly unique. Out of all my friends' systems mine looked the shvtiest by far because I didn't rice it out with lights and cathodes and fan grilles, etc, but I was always content with knowing that my computer was silent and powerful.
I've always been that kind of person. I don't like supercars and superbikes that roar down the highway, deafening everything in its wake. My ideal supercar would be completely silent, unobtrusive. But once you look under the hood and drive it, it shows its true power with silent efficiency, driving down the highway at 200mph leaving nothing behind but a woosh of air. The efficiency and silence of a watercooling system does a lot for me, as well as the novelty of it. Anyone can slap a fan on a CPU and be done with it, but it takes more to build a loop and actually be in charge of quality control because a mistake can be disasterous. It takes more care, and in the end you're closer to your system because of it. It's not maintenance anymore in the sense of it as a chore. It's fun. Let's put it this way: I'd much rather tinker on my watercooling and "maintain" it than wash the dishes, make food, or sit there and not have to do anything for a simple fan cooled system.
You don't have to unplug your reservoir if you move your system... watercooling is actually very secure. From the hose clamps to the seam sealing tygon to the hose barbs that just do not want to let go of the tubing afterwards, I cannot see anywhere where my system would leak. The only "leak" I've had was when I was taking apart my loop and some water spilled on my video card, which I let dry and is now still working to this day. I've never used compressed air to clear out dust because my case has never gotten dusty, and yes, it is still self-contained.
I wasn't a huge overclocker because my Athlon just wouldn't overclock well, so I ran my watercooled system at stock for all that time before finally upgrading to a 2000+ when they reached $50. But I never regretted one day of it. It was a big investment, yes. I didn't overclock with it, yes. But it made me happy and satiated my appetite for tinkering and creating something that was truly unique. Out of all my friends' systems mine looked the shvtiest by far because I didn't rice it out with lights and cathodes and fan grilles, etc, but I was always content with knowing that my computer was silent and powerful.
I've always been that kind of person. I don't like supercars and superbikes that roar down the highway, deafening everything in its wake. My ideal supercar would be completely silent, unobtrusive. But once you look under the hood and drive it, it shows its true power with silent efficiency, driving down the highway at 200mph leaving nothing behind but a woosh of air. The efficiency and silence of a watercooling system does a lot for me, as well as the novelty of it. Anyone can slap a fan on a CPU and be done with it, but it takes more to build a loop and actually be in charge of quality control because a mistake can be disasterous. It takes more care, and in the end you're closer to your system because of it. It's not maintenance anymore in the sense of it as a chore. It's fun. Let's put it this way: I'd much rather tinker on my watercooling and "maintain" it than wash the dishes, make food, or sit there and not have to do anything for a simple fan cooled system.
You don't have to unplug your reservoir if you move your system... watercooling is actually very secure. From the hose clamps to the seam sealing tygon to the hose barbs that just do not want to let go of the tubing afterwards, I cannot see anywhere where my system would leak. The only "leak" I've had was when I was taking apart my loop and some water spilled on my video card, which I let dry and is now still working to this day. I've never used compressed air to clear out dust because my case has never gotten dusty, and yes, it is still self-contained.
BonzaiDuck
Lifer
IamTrout -- interesting perspective. Also, anyone who wants to see what someone did with a water-cooling rig that looks like the computer-equivalent of Las Vegas car-show fare -- should search the web for a project called "ORAC" or "ORAC-3". Five articles on the build project, each quite voluminous with oodles and gobs of color pictures. the entire project is summarized with ample pictorials in the fifth installment.
TheStu -- I haven't "majored" in 80mm fans lately. At the low rpms, throughput is not "enough" for me. For a while, I tinkered with the ThermalTake Smart Fan 2, which -- in the 3,000 to 6,000 rpm range, is noisy as hell. I've dumped all of them. And with my sister-in-law's residual complaints about the noise level still in her system after we threw a 120mm Silverstone on her CPU cooler replacing the 80mm SmartFan that was there, I long for the day when she will cut me some slack -- so I can nibble her 80mm rear fan hole into a 92 and do the same with the top blow-hole.
Based on your remark, the Vantec Tornado 92mm is not for you.
That leaves -- off the top of my head -- the ThermalTake Blue LED 92mm (very quiet for ThermalTake) and the Zalman 92mm fan (even more quiet). The TT spins up to 3,600 rpms if you need it, but you can run it at half that speed, and it has its own rheostat speed control. The Zalman spins up to 3,000. The throughput on the TT is rated at something like 79 CFM. Zalman never tells you about theirs.
Now I wish I had more to recommend, but in experimenting with my fans, I chose those that had a wide range of speed variation. The two that I mentioned are very reasonable for dBA noise levels, especially at the middle of their respective speed ranges. In fact, the Zalman is almost noiseless at its top rpm. You will have to control the Zalman through a front-panel or similar controller, since it does not come bundled with its own rheostat.
TheStu -- I haven't "majored" in 80mm fans lately. At the low rpms, throughput is not "enough" for me. For a while, I tinkered with the ThermalTake Smart Fan 2, which -- in the 3,000 to 6,000 rpm range, is noisy as hell. I've dumped all of them. And with my sister-in-law's residual complaints about the noise level still in her system after we threw a 120mm Silverstone on her CPU cooler replacing the 80mm SmartFan that was there, I long for the day when she will cut me some slack -- so I can nibble her 80mm rear fan hole into a 92 and do the same with the top blow-hole.
Based on your remark, the Vantec Tornado 92mm is not for you.
That leaves -- off the top of my head -- the ThermalTake Blue LED 92mm (very quiet for ThermalTake) and the Zalman 92mm fan (even more quiet). The TT spins up to 3,600 rpms if you need it, but you can run it at half that speed, and it has its own rheostat speed control. The Zalman spins up to 3,000. The throughput on the TT is rated at something like 79 CFM. Zalman never tells you about theirs.
Now I wish I had more to recommend, but in experimenting with my fans, I chose those that had a wide range of speed variation. The two that I mentioned are very reasonable for dBA noise levels, especially at the middle of their respective speed ranges. In fact, the Zalman is almost noiseless at its top rpm. You will have to control the Zalman through a front-panel or similar controller, since it does not come bundled with its own rheostat.
Thanks for the advise on the fans... I am much like Iamtrout... I don't want a loud system, I want one that is powerful but quasi-deceptive. I will be getting a new Antec case a few months down the line with a pair of 120s in there as default... after that any fan in my rig under 120 will be the 92 on my sink... In light of that... what 120mms would you recommend? I am looking to have a total of 4 in the system; 1 front (in) 1 rear (out) 1 top (out) 1 side (in).... again noise levels are a consideration but with 120s it shouldn't be an issue correct?
BonzaiDuck
Lifer
Much less of an issue with 120mm jobs. Even those with motor noise or "whine" are much less annoying for that flaw than some 60, 70 and 80mm CPU fans, or high-speed 80's.
I recall seeing pictures of the mid-tower Antec Sonata, and a buddy -- very shrewd guy -- snagged three of them with discounts and triple-rebates so that he managed in the end to pay no more than about $20 per case. He kept one and put two up for auction at EBay, which brought nearly the full retail value back to him in profits.
Somebody remarked that the CoolerMaster Stacker is "ugly", but it explains why I prefer full-tower cases -- they are easier to cool and less crowded to work on. One 120mm fan in the lower front case panel works fine for cooling, and you can pick a fan for that purpose which has an rpm speed limit in the low 2,000's. It will still move a lot of air, although if filtered, the actual CFM's are likely to be lower than a rated 80. Two 120's is "really cool."
I'd only use a high-throughput jobbie for the CPU fan. I had to use 92's for exhaust on my system because a 120 would have been too tight a fit, and at the time I made my choices I was not outstandingly daring about cutting up the case and rearranging things -- (like where you choose to put the power-supply).
As I may have said on another thread, I have tested many fans but there are just as many or more that have yet to "fall into my hands". You could almost use any number of different 120mm fans for front intake if you were planning to have dual fans running at or around 2,000 rpm. Right now, I have some EverCool aluminums in the front case -panel, but I'm replacing them with 120x25mm Sunons because the EverCools have a slight bearing rattle. Even so, the bearing rattle is evident at 2,250 rpm but disappears at 2,000 rpm.
For a CPU fan -- and this may not be for you -- if I had to choose a 92mm fan and I was extremely concerned about system cooling with air -- I would probably at least try a Vantec Tornado 92mm and see how I might deaden the noise. And I would probably do this with an eye toward making the Tornado's rpms linearly dependent on a temperature sensor. Barring that, I might try a ThermalTake Blue LED 92mm because I do not think they are very noisy at 2,500 rpm and they can spin up to 3,600. [And of course, the blue lights and all!!] I THINK the Vantec has an MTBF of 100,000 hours, and the TT fan is either 30,000 or 50,000.
And the Zalman 92mm is almost perfectly noiseless at 3,000 rpm.
I recall seeing pictures of the mid-tower Antec Sonata, and a buddy -- very shrewd guy -- snagged three of them with discounts and triple-rebates so that he managed in the end to pay no more than about $20 per case. He kept one and put two up for auction at EBay, which brought nearly the full retail value back to him in profits.
Somebody remarked that the CoolerMaster Stacker is "ugly", but it explains why I prefer full-tower cases -- they are easier to cool and less crowded to work on. One 120mm fan in the lower front case panel works fine for cooling, and you can pick a fan for that purpose which has an rpm speed limit in the low 2,000's. It will still move a lot of air, although if filtered, the actual CFM's are likely to be lower than a rated 80. Two 120's is "really cool."
I'd only use a high-throughput jobbie for the CPU fan. I had to use 92's for exhaust on my system because a 120 would have been too tight a fit, and at the time I made my choices I was not outstandingly daring about cutting up the case and rearranging things -- (like where you choose to put the power-supply).
As I may have said on another thread, I have tested many fans but there are just as many or more that have yet to "fall into my hands". You could almost use any number of different 120mm fans for front intake if you were planning to have dual fans running at or around 2,000 rpm. Right now, I have some EverCool aluminums in the front case -panel, but I'm replacing them with 120x25mm Sunons because the EverCools have a slight bearing rattle. Even so, the bearing rattle is evident at 2,250 rpm but disappears at 2,000 rpm.
For a CPU fan -- and this may not be for you -- if I had to choose a 92mm fan and I was extremely concerned about system cooling with air -- I would probably at least try a Vantec Tornado 92mm and see how I might deaden the noise. And I would probably do this with an eye toward making the Tornado's rpms linearly dependent on a temperature sensor. Barring that, I might try a ThermalTake Blue LED 92mm because I do not think they are very noisy at 2,500 rpm and they can spin up to 3,600. [And of course, the blue lights and all!!] I THINK the Vantec has an MTBF of 100,000 hours, and the TT fan is either 30,000 or 50,000.
And the Zalman 92mm is almost perfectly noiseless at 3,000 rpm.
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