Water cool or air cool ? If water cool which one ?

[you2]

I'm moving my gaming rig into a mini-itx case (pc-q33). I'm trying to decide between nh-u9s or a smaller water cool system. The processor is a 4790K not overclocked but I do know it runs very hot when stressed (doom) with the stock intel fan.
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I've started to read reviews on corsair h55 and h60 but to be honest they seem to be not that great and some complain of being noisy but price point is similar to the nh-u9s.
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The moreboard has the cpu next to the pcie lane hence the smaller nh-u9s instead of the rock 3 or nh-u14. Given the case size and mb I would need a smaller water unit if I went that route. The case actually has a lot of vertical space above the mb so height isn't an issue but the area around the cpu is very restrictive given the ram and pcie placement relative to the cpu (the side opposite the pcie has some clearance where the south bridge is located) but the ram at top and heat sinks at bottom makes the other two sides a bit restrictive. (i.e, 3 sides are restrictive but one side is open next to the cpu).
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Any suggestions or comments ? fyi the video card will be the 1070 mini.

 

[lehtv]

Water cooling just isn't needed for a stock 4790K, but it's not a bad option, it will make it a little bit easier to connect cables in a tiny case like the Q33. Corsair H55 and H60 have relatively high RPM's, however. I'd suggest either swapping in a quieter fan (possibly the stock fan of the Q33) or buying a liquid cooler that uses quiet fans by default, e.g. Arctic Liquid Freezer 120.

As for air coolers, I would steer clear of Noctua's rather pricey offerings, there are plenty of decent enough brands that offer similar performance at about half the price. I'd suggest Arctic i11.

What motherboard do you have? You can further lower the processor's heat output by downvolting it, but that requires a Z97 chipset board.

 

[you2]

The mother board is z97 itx. Bit concern about the arctic i11 from reviews. I'm not set on getting water cooling. How do you feel about the gelid anartic ? From the images it is tall but does not have large extending pipes so clearance around it should be ok (I hope from picture). Fan also looks high so can maybe fit above south bridge or memory.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Maybe you should have read my thread about my i7-6700K and Silicon Lottery's delidding service.

They'll give you 30 days in an RMA window. You would likely void your processor warranty with Intel. But for $50 -- if you send them the processor -- they will delid, removed the polymer Intel thermal interface material, and replace it with Coolaboratory Liquid Ultra. You can expect temperature reductions between 8C and 18C. My 6700K had a 12C improvement.

OK -- there you spent $50. Next, find a low-profile heatpipe cooler applicable to the i7-4790K chip and socket. Now you don't have to worry about a failing AiO cooler; don't have to do the annual drain-refill-and-bleed for a custom water.

I also recoil slightly from the idea that I'm somehow trying to drum up business for Silly Lotts. But they do a darn good job.

Here's just one example of a Noctua cooler:

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Low-Profile-Cooler-Retail-Cooling/dp/B009VCAJ7W

There are many ways to skin a cat, even if the cat is running at stock speed.

I just don't think it's so important to fret about the Ivy-Bridge/Haswell/Skylake status quo of higher temperatures, provided you're running at stock speed settings and your case has good airflow. But there are several ways to address the problem, some as good or better than installing an H60 or H80 AiO.

 

[you2]

And why is this a better solution than using a nh-u9s or installing H60. The case has lots of height clearance but the motherboard has limited clearance on the sides (ram, pcie slot, ...). I know this cpu runs near 100% with the stock cooler when stressed (prime95, doom, ...). I could care less if it runs 85; the objective isn't to make it run 65c it is to keep it in operational spec and so it doesn't shut down. The reality of things is by 2020 (3.5 years) I will upgrade to win 10 and something probably not yet available. I'm not going to use this processor for 20 years and could care less if it burns out in 4 years as long as it gives reliable service as long as it is in service.

Maybe you should have read my thread about my i7-6700K and Silicon Lottery's delidding service.

They'll give you 30 days in an RMA window. You would likely void your processor warranty with Intel. But for $50 -- if you send them the processor -- they will delid, removed the polymer Intel thermal interface material, and replace it with Coolaboratory Liquid Ultra. You can expect temperature reductions between 8C and 18C. My 6700K had a 12C improvement.

OK -- there you spent $50. Next, find a low-profile heatpipe cooler applicable to the i7-4790K chip and socket. Now you don't have to worry about a failing AiO cooler; don't have to do the annual drain-refill-and-bleed for a custom water.

I also recoil slightly from the idea that I'm somehow trying to drum up business for Silly Lotts. But they do a darn good job.

Here's just one example of a Noctua cooler:

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Low-Profile-Cooler-Retail-Cooling/dp/B009VCAJ7W

There are many ways to skin a cat, even if the cat is running at stock speed.

I just don't think it's so important to fret about the Ivy-Bridge/Haswell/Skylake status quo of higher temperatures, provided you're running at stock speed settings and your case has good airflow. But there are several ways to address the problem, some as good or better than installing an H60 or H80 AiO.

 

[NeoPTLD]

Tuning forks through fins design like the one you mentioned works good in general provided that they're well made. Copper or nickel plated aluminum with solder wicked into the gap is superior to only mechanically fitted fins. It can work better than water cooling, because the thermal resistance is very small and you only have CPU->heatsink->air rather than CPU->waterblock->water->radiator->air

This design has been used in servers and workstations for years.
This one is designed for 120w TDP.

That little flange makes a night and day difference by preventing used air from going back in. It goes up flush with the side and pushes room air directly into the CPU. Many custom PCs have horrible cooling because of high intake temperature from excessive re-circulation inside or around the case. You should see a respectable temperature drop with what you have just by ducting the air intake. Try it out with some cardboard and a flex duct before doing anything permanent.

 

[MongGrel]

Maybe you should have read my thread about my i7-6700K and Silicon Lottery's delidding service.

They'll give you 30 days in an RMA window. You would likely void your processor warranty with Intel. But for $50 -- if you send them the processor -- they will delid, removed the polymer Intel thermal interface material, and replace it with Coolaboratory Liquid Ultra. You can expect temperature reductions between 8C and 18C. My 6700K had a 12C improvement.

OK -- there you spent $50. Next, find a low-profile heatpipe cooler applicable to the i7-4790K chip and socket. Now you don't have to worry about a failing AiO cooler; don't have to do the annual drain-refill-and-bleed for a custom water.

I also recoil slightly from the idea that I'm somehow trying to drum up business for Silly Lotts. But they do a darn good job.

Here's just one example of a Noctua cooler:

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Low-Profile-Cooler-Retail-Cooling/dp/B009VCAJ7W

There are many ways to skin a cat, even if the cat is running at stock speed.

I just don't think it's so important to fret about the Ivy-Bridge/Haswell/Skylake status quo of higher temperatures, provided you're running at stock speed settings and your case has good airflow. But there are several ways to address the problem, some as good or better than installing an H60 or H80 AiO.

I'd agree with the cooler above if you are going to shove it in a mini at stock.

Even if you did not delid.

People used to scoff at me a bit a decade ago for liking Noctua coolers and fans before I even joined the forums here.

They have always been solid for me, you get what you pay for sometimes, and that one isn't even high priced.

 

[you2]

I'm a little dense these days but are you suggesting the stock cooler is fine and I just need to adjust the vents int he computer (not sure what you meant by flex duct - your picture doesn't seem to show any duct work). Or are you suggesting that my choice of the nh-u9s is a reasonable solution? I'm not all that incline to go with the arctic i11 from the reviews (I rather pay $20 and have something that is easier to work with and hassle free).

Tuning forks through fins design like the one you mentioned works good in general provided that they're well made. Copper or nickel plated aluminum with solder wicked into the gap is superior to only mechanically fitted fins. It can work better than water cooling, because the thermal resistance is very small and you only have CPU->heatsink->air rather than CPU->waterblock->water->radiator->air

This design has been used in servers and workstations for years.
This one is designed for 120w TDP.

That little flange makes a night and day difference by preventing used air from going back in. It goes up flush with the side and pushes room air directly into the CPU. Many custom PCs have horrible cooling because of high intake temperature from excessive re-circulation inside or around the case. You should see a respectable temperature drop with what you have just by ducting the air intake. Try it out with some cardboard and a flex duct before doing anything permanent.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

And why is this a better solution than using a nh-u9s or installing H60. The case has lots of height clearance but the motherboard has limited clearance on the sides (ram, pcie slot, ...). I know this cpu runs near 100% with the stock cooler when stressed (prime95, doom, ...). I could care less if it runs 85; the objective isn't to make it run 65c it is to keep it in operational spec and so it doesn't shut down. The reality of things is by 2020 (3.5 years) I will upgrade to win 10 and something probably not yet available. I'm not going to use this processor for 20 years and could care less if it burns out in 4 years as long as it gives reliable service as long as it is in service.

It may not be a better solution. I was making this point. The problem with Intel processors since Ivy Bridge derives from replacement of the indium solder between IHS and die, so that the polymer TIM they use is a bottleneck to heat-removal. A person could either go that route -- re-lidding the processor with CLU -- or use a more effective, possibly bigger cooling solution.

I've seen people use an H80i to great effect with some minor enhancements. I can also think of some air-coolers that nearly meet such a level of cooling performance. If it's a matter of a tight fit in the case, it's your call -- air or water -- provided you choose from either option a cooler that is up to the task, and particularly the task of what you want to do with the system.

 

[you2]

The case has good height clearance but it is an itx case (pc-q33); the problem is the motherboard itself has the cpu boxed in by the ram/pcie slots. it sounds like from reviews that the nh-u9s will meet my objective (naturally i would not mind spending a bit less - but the arctic i11 seems problematic (from reviews). I know the haswell runs much hotter than my sandbridge cpu and I understand that part of the issue is with intel changes but delidding seems excessive for my objective. I just want to keep it below 90c at max (prime 95 for example). I'm not trying to push it to 5ghz or keep it at 50c at max.
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From what I've read skylake is a bit better in part because they transfered the regulators to the mb but maybe there are other reasons. However, I can do this build for $170 using old parts; if I go with skylake it will be closer to $600 (new processor, mb, ram).
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Anyway fromt he thread it sounds like water cooling isn't going to help much (at least the smaller units that will fit in the itx cases).

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The case has good height clearance but it is an itx case (pc-q33); the problem is the motherboard itself has the cpu boxed in by the ram/pcie slots. it sounds like from reviews that the nh-u9s will meet my objective (naturally i would not mind spending a bit less - but the arctic i11 seems problematic (from reviews). I know the haswell runs much hotter than my sandbridge cpu and I understand that part of the issue is with intel changes but delidding seems excessive for my objective. I just want to keep it below 90c at max (prime 95 for example). I'm not trying to push it to 5ghz or keep it at 50c at max.
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From what I've read skylake is a bit better in part because they transfered the regulators to the mb but maybe there are other reasons. However, I can do this build for $170 using old parts; if I go with skylake it will be closer to $600 (new processor, mb, ram).
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Anyway fromt he thread it sounds like water cooling isn't going to help much (at least the smaller units that will fit in the itx cases).

I only vaguely remember, but remember something even so, a sort of thermal profile for the 4790K. the example with the H80i was in a Corsair Vengeance C70 case, and so due to that forum exchange many months ago, I bought a C70 when I purchased parts for my Skylake 6700K.

6700K is still hot. One reviewer, who "settled" for a 4.7 Ghz overclock, was using an external "case-top" EXOS dual fan water-cooling kit. He was jumping up and down to praise the Lord for showing 4 maximum stress readings between 78 and 82C degrees.

WGusler, the member who did the C70 4790K build with the H80i (and the carcass-fan-shroud duct builds to keep the fans and radiator apart) -- OC'd his 4790K to somewhere between 4.6 and 4.8. He then decided to run at the 4.4 Ghz "Sync all cores" minimum overclock, and was doing Prime95 with a package temperature maximum of about 68 to 70C.

But I think I still have his cooling beat with my LGM heatpipe cooler. And I'll say this: I haven't looked yet at your ITX case, but if you could fit that thing in there such that airflow coincided on all three exposed sides of the cooler (adding the $8 rubber duct accessory), and that airflow either fed the exhaust fan or both exhaust and the intake for the PSU, you could just frontload the air-pressure in the case with greater intake CFMs.

You'd have to look at that cooler or its "little brothers" -- other "Macho" coolers by ThermalRight. But for compactness, the only cooler I might pick over the LGM would be the EVGA ACX cooler (now called something else and hard to find). It's the most compact, but the TR cooler is about even in performance.

But the TR LGM seems much more compact to provide direct access to RAM or fan-plugs.

then like I said -- you have to pick one of those models to fit your case.

The low profile coolers we discussed are a compromise. If they're as good as a CoolerMaster Hyper 212 EVO, or if the 212 EVO fits your box, I think there might be much you can do, and especially if you don't care much for LN2 OC-team competitions and you want to preserve your hardware. And as I understand it, you can use those smaller coolers for some modestly-gratifying overclock settings.

 

[NeoPTLD]

I'm a little dense these days but are you suggesting the stock cooler is fine and I just need to adjust the vents int he computer (not sure what you meant by flex duct - your picture doesn't seem to show any duct work). Or are you suggesting that my choice of the nh-u9s is a reasonable solution? I'm not all that incline to go with the arctic i11 from the reviews (I rather pay $20 and have something that is easier to work with and hassle free).

What I'm saying is that the case I showed you has a little ring above the fan so it goes up flush against the side panel's intake grille. If there is a gap between the fan and the panel, the fan will suck back some of the air that already went through the heat sink and substantially increase the intake temperature. Unless the intake grill happens to be straight above the fan, you can't use a simple ring.

I don't know the layout in your case. I'm saying you could just build a duct together to keep the fan from ingesting exhaust and check the improvement. Just use some empty box to build a mock up to test the improvement. A portion of the improvement people get from water cooling is from being able to locate the radiator to get fresh room air.

Even a piece of cardboard to reduce CPU heat sink from directly blowing into video card can help temperature a lot.

There is a Intel stock cooler style heatsink with a copper core. This can lower 3-5C under heavy load compared to solid aluminum. I had better success with an ordinary one dollar white paste than AS5. It works good for smaller die like GPU core, but I found AS5 way too thick to spread out to fill voids on a larger CPU like modern intel CPU.

Pre-built systems are made in enough quantity to justify custom duct. The location of CPU, heatsink shape and intake location are all over the place with home made PCs which makes it harder to include factory made ducts. You upgrade to slightly nicer rubber or PVC parts if card board mock up gives you worthwhile improvement.

This is the idea. Make sense?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Maybe 10 years ago while I was researching ideas for a new system, I came across a project-blog in which the user installed a Zalman "flower" HSF. In that situation, the airflow through the HSF fins isn't too different from what occurs with a stock HSF. In his project, he had used cut-up parts of a rubber kitchen glove to duct the HSF exhaust. I can't remember the particulars. But depending on the direction of the fan, you could build a foam-board box-duct to draw air from the cooler to be sucked out by the case exhaust.

The project I saw involved a CPU with a manageable TDP, and it didn't have the heat transfer problems of today's die-shrink. the die was bigger, the IHS was bigger. So the centigrade numbers presented by the project author seemed to show pretty good cooling improvement for an old yellow-Rubbermaid glove-duct.

What I'm saying is that the case I showed you has a little ring above the fan so it goes up flush against the side panel's intake grille. If there is a gap between the fan and the panel, the fan will suck back some of the air that already went through the heat sink and substantially increase the intake temperature. Unless the intake grill happens to be straight above the fan, you can't use a simple ring.

I don't know the layout in your case. I'm saying you could just build a duct together to keep the fan from ingesting exhaust and check the improvement. Just use some empty box to build a mock up to test the improvement. A portion of the improvement people get from water cooling is from being able to locate the radiator to get fresh room air.

Even a piece of cardboard to reduce CPU heat sink from directly blowing into video card can help temperature a lot.

There is a Intel stock cooler style heatsink with a copper core. This can lower 3-5C under heavy load compared to solid aluminum. I had better success with an ordinary one dollar white paste than AS5. It works good for smaller die like GPU core, but I found AS5 way too thick to spread out to fill voids on a larger CPU like modern intel CPU.

Pre-built systems are made in enough quantity to justify custom duct. The location of CPU, heatsink shape and intake location are all over the place with home made PCs which makes it harder to include factory made ducts. You upgrade to slightly nicer rubber or PVC parts if card board mock up gives you worthwhile improvement.

This is the idea. Make sense?

 

[NeoPTLD]

My ducted Dell is doing incredible.
I left Prime95 running on a 120W CPU for a few hours and when I came back, it was holding 60C at 1400RPM. You can barely hear it unless you're right next to it.
Ambient:is 22C

That heatsink is very similar to this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608022
but I I think the free breathing case ducted delivery right into the CPU heatsink without any re-circulation helps a lot

 

[you2]

Can you enlarge that picture ? I will admit that dells make very nice cases/comptuers - been using them for years at work. Is that the standard dell or did you customize the duct work ? Oddly my dell at work runs warm.

My ducted Dell is doing incredible.
I left Prime95 running on a 120W CPU for a few hours and when I came back, it was holding 60C at 1400RPM. You can barely hear it unless you're right next to it.
Ambient:is 22C

That heatsink is very similar to this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608022
but I I think the free breathing case ducted delivery right into the CPU heatsink without any re-circulation helps a lot

 

[spat55]

I say a NH-D15 as I don't like the idea of AIO' leaking although if you have the money a custom loop is worth it imo.

 

[nerp]

I'd go with air. Water to me is a last resort or for aesthetic purposes only. A good Noctua is just as good or nearly just as good, usually a few bucks less and no chance of a leak destroying your gear. Leaks do happen.

 

[NeoPTLD]

I'd go with air. Water to me is a last resort or for aesthetic purposes only. A good Noctua is just as good or nearly just as good, usually a few bucks less and no chance of a leak destroying your gear. Leaks do happen.

I say a NH-D15 as I don't like the idea of AIO' leaking although if you have the money a custom loop is worth it imo.

Asetek unitary coolers are utilized in some higher end Dell and Fujitsu factory made PCs. I think they give respectable performance without the expense of custom made heatsink/shroud combo. You might not get the cooling performance of Noctua with perfect air ducting but you eliminate air recirculation without ducts and it's very flexible.

You don't need to mess with the fluid in all in one system. When you look at the price of custom coolants, you can see that they're like printer ink intended to make money on consumables and the need to get people to do drain and fill in order to create demand. It's absurd for a custom water cooling rig to need to have the loop opened up every 6 months/year. In contrast, coolant and plugs in modern cars last 50% the useful life of vehicle or more.

Can you enlarge that picture ? I will admit that dells make very nice cases/comptuers - been using them for years at work. Is that the standard dell or did you customize the duct work ? Oddly my dell at work runs warm.

Just grabbed a similar picture off the web. You can see the very low air resistance mesh. The side opening between the fan and front panel is covered by the case panel. If you were to leave the panel off, then some exhaust would go back in. Unfortunately, I've had many white boxes and bling boxes that have very restrictive grilles or openings in inappropriate places that cause air to flow around where it needs cooling.

Your CPU is like 90W. Mine is 120W but yours is thermal pad rather than soldered. So if you go with Noctua, it should cool as well as mine provided airflow is good and the air temperature at heat sink suction is very close to room temperature.

Dell is very cost conscious and newer tower has done away without the duct but has rear fan to reduce circulation. They still don't cool as nicely and generously rev up the fan with work load. Older ones were built with workstation quality parts like high end heatsinks and double ball bearing fans.

 

[you2]

Thanks. Yea that is a stock dell design. Love the layout of their pizza boxes. Anyways I went with the nh-u19s ( went with that model because noctua said it would fit in my mb which is z97i-drone). As I said the mb has a lousy placement for the cpu - but it is one of the very few itx 1150 boards you can still buy - and perhaps the only one still in production.

 

[you2]

totally impressed; i rebuilt my 4790k gaming system with the z97i-drone+nh-u19s. prime 95 (which previously took me to 90+ with stock cooler) only gets as warm as 70c in this mini-itx case (the old case was full atx with 2 front 120mm fans and rare 120mm). This case has a single 120mm fan. Anyway i need to let prime95 run overnight to bake the ram but if the cpu stays between 69 and 72c i'll be extermely happy. hum. Actually with the case sealed (sides on) it seems to be staying around 65c.
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One thing I did notice when I removed the stock fan is the thermal-paste (from the stock fan) was really really thick. It must have been over 1mm which is extremely thick/gummy. I wonder if they are using too much on these fans.
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I also love how this fan connects. I had use a third party fan on my other 4790k; and this sucker is miles ahead. If I didn't have to remove the mb to replace it I would go ahead and get another one of these.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

My ducted Dell is doing incredible.
I left Prime95 running on a 120W CPU for a few hours and when I came back, it was holding 60C at 1400RPM. You can barely hear it unless you're right next to it.
Ambient:is 22C

That heatsink is very similar to this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835608022
but I I think the free breathing case ducted delivery right into the CPU heatsink without any re-circulation helps a lot

I cloned an SSD for my dentist, who owned one of these Dell models as your picture shows, and I noticed precisely what NeoPTLD points out.

For some components, you can reduce temperatures maybe 5C degrees with custom duct parts, but putting them together can be tedious. For instance, it is a pain to cut Lexan precisely without patience for it. Foam board can make light, solid constructions but you can't see through it. I choose black or charcoal gray because it seems invisible in places where there's no lighting. To do things right, you need t take enough pains to construct the duct as you would a solid bookshelf or coffee table, using lap and tongue joints where it makes sense. Three or four different types of useful glue.

And you have to design your little constructions in combined consideration to mobo, graphics cards, cooler (air or water) and the case itself.

I have a particular strategy that I'm stubbornly going forward to complete using a Stacker 830 midtower -- a case design that is at least 8 years old. I have one more step after modifying a duct I'd initially built for a server box, which is now in a Corsair C70 awaiting my attention. Then we'll see if there's any improvement to GTX 1070 temperatures and the VCORE regulator components on the motherboard monitored by my Sabertooth "S" board. Prior to that, I've just used the Suite software to assess cooling "across the board" to be punny.

Those VCORE VRM temperatures don't exceed 44C when 60C was an upper boundary to "safe or acceptable." But if I can't reduced those temperatures by so much as a degree, the graphics card may hold more promise.

THE REASON YOU MIGHT ACHIEVE MORE EFFICIENT AIR COOLING IN A SMALLER CASE: If you can place the intake and exhaust fans to force air over and past hot components and get the air out of the case quickly even if the air travels over more than one heat source in series, you're better off. If you can do that with a small case, there's less accounting for stale air, a bigger prospect for a pressurized case, and less complicated ducting parts if you even need to build them.

And if you filter things properly on the intake side, you'll have the cleanest air in your neighborhood without buying any stylish air filtering HEPA machines.