Wasn't Hitler actually a democrat-socialist instead of a corporatist?

[Noobtastic]

once you set aside economics, stalin and hitler could get along quite nicely.

both the soviet union and nazi germany were governed by authoritarian regimes and centralized power-structure. both regimes were heavily dominated by the military sector and civilian control was little if non-existence.

sure they might have opposing philosophies but both states were extremely racist, bigoted, hateful, antisemitic, and genocidal.

the soviet union ended up killing way more people than nazi germany did.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Socialism is a broad term which can be used to described many different subset forms of socialism itself such as: democratic socialism, communism, national socialism, arab socialism (aka Ba'athist), etc

Socialism is the tree...national socialism was a branch from that rotten tree.

Edit: As for NAZI's fighting with other socialist groups well that was the norm prior to their rise to power. At the time in Germany there were many political groups (including many socialist groups) who fought each other even though they held similar views on many fronts but could not agree on a few key fundamental issues such as economics.

 

[Infohawk]

once you set aside economics, stalin and hitler could get along quite nicely.

There were bigger differences than you think. As you say, they were ideological enemies. As Perknose suggested, even the US economy was centralized and managed during WW2 so you can't put too much into the economic issues.

Nazi Germany had officially racist policies. It was about advancing Germanic peoples' interest. They saw the slavs as subhuman. The USSR had universal ideals. They may have implemented them poorly, but you're glossing over huge differences.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Is Anarchist420 an anarchist or an DumbAss-ist? Inquiring minds wish to know.

 

[Perknose]

Edit: As for NAZI's fighting with other socialist groups well that was the norm prior to their rise to power. At the time in Germany there were many political groups (including many socialist groups) who fought each other even though they held similar views on many fronts but could not agree on a few key fundamental issues such as economics.

Quite simply not true.

The other socialist groups DID NOT fight each other in the streets at all! Nor did the communists fight the socialists, either. Your assumption that they did, despite holding, as you say "similar views on many fronts" is patently untrue.

The NAZI party was never a real socialist party, anyway, and certainly became radically less so after Hitler's ascendance.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The SA wore grey jackets, brown shirts (khaki shirts originally intended for soldiers in Africa but purchased in bulk from the German Army by the Nazi Party), swastika armbands, ski-caps, knee-breeches, thick woolen socks and combat boots. Accompanied by bands of musicians and carrying swastika flags, they would parade through the streets of Munich. At the end of the march Hitler would make one of his passionate speeches that encouraged his supporters to carry out acts of violence against Jews and his left-wing political opponents.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As this violence was often directed against Socialists and Communists, the local right-wing Bavarian government did not take action against the Nazi Party.[/FONT]

The reason you won't be able to prove your assertion that other socialist parties in Germany at that time fought with each other in the streets with even one link from the entire internet is because you can't.

But, hey, give it your best shot!

Your main point that the Nazi's under Hitler were socialist isn't even worth engaging, so thoroughly has it been discredited by the entire corpus of scholarly research on the subject.

 

[werepossum]

Quite simply not true.

The other socialist groups DID NOT fight each other in the streets at all! Nor did the communists fight the socialists, either. Your assumption that they did, despite holding, as you say "similar views on many fronts" is patently untrue.

The NAZI party was never a real socialist party, anyway, and certainly became radically less so after Hitler's ascendance.



The reason you won't be able to prove your assertion that other socialist parties in Germany at that time fought with each other in the streets with even one link from the entire internet is because you can't.

But, hey, give it your best shot!

Your main point that the Nazi's under Hitler were socialist isn't even worth engaging, so thoroughly has it been discredited by the entire corpus of scholarly research on the subject.

The National Socialists (or to be accurate, the National Socialist German Workers' Party) was indeed socialist, and remained so (though admittedly less so) after Hitler took ultimate power. The reason they fought with other socialists and especially with the Communists, other than purely seeking after mutually exclusive power, was that the Communist and other socialist movements were based purely on class and were international movements intended to make borders irrelevant. The Nazi Party, based firmly on German ethnicity, was thought to be far less of a risk for the ruling elite, but all the opposition groups at the time were some measure of socialism. To deny that the National Socialists were socialist is simply asinine.

From Yale's Avalon Project (snipped from the University of South Florida's web site on the Holocaust): http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/PROGRAM.htm
The program of the German Workers' Party is an epochal program.

The leaders reject the idea of setting up new goals after those included in the program have been achieved merely in order to make possible the further existence of the Party by artificially inducing discontent among the masses.

1. We demand the union of all Germans in a Great Germany on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

2. We demand that the German people have rights equal to those of other nations; and that the Peace Treaties of Versailles and St. Germain shall be abrogated.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the maintenance of our people and the settlement of our surplus population.

4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen Hence no Jew can be a countryman.

5. Those who are not citizens must live in Germany as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province. or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who have entered Germany since August 2, 1914, shall be compelled to leave the Reich immediately.

9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

Breaking the Bondage of Interest

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.

20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

22. We demand the abolition of the regular army and the creation of a national (folk) army.

23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a German press, we demand:

(a) All editors and their assistants on newspapers published in the German language shall be German citizens.

(b) Non-German newspapers shall only be published with the express permission of the State. They must not be published in the German language.

(c) All financial interests in or in any way affecting German newspapers shall be forbidden to non-Germans by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of the nonGermans from the Reich.

Newspapers transgressing against the common welfare shall be suppressed. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

24. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the Germanic race.

The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

Note items like the abolition of all income not stemming from work, total confiscation of all war profits, nationalization of all trusts, profit sharing in large industries, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose, state control of all education, nationalized health care, compulsory exercise, and the fight against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without. These are very similar to other socialist organizations of the time, and indeed, of today. Note the call for the common good before individual good - parroted straight by today's socialists (and Democrats.)

Admittedly, Hitler's murderous ethnic nationalism swamped his party's socialist activities, but they never ceased. That he and his cronies rewarded their friends with lucrative contracts rather than confiscate their companies is no more than human nature among all political persuasions. This continuous attempt to cast Hitler as right wing is nothing more than a dishonest attempt to parlay control over education into political advantage.

 

[Perknose]

The National Socialists (or to be accurate, the National Socialist German Workers' Party) was indeed socialist, and remained so (though admittedly less so) after Hitler took ultimate power. The reason they fought with other socialists and especially with the Communists, other than purely seeking after mutually exclusive power, was that the Communist and other socialist movements were based purely on class and were international movements intended to make borders irrelevant. The Nazi Party, based firmly on German ethnicity, was thought to be far less of a risk for the ruling elite, but all the opposition groups at the time were some measure of socialism. To deny that the National Socialists were socialist is simply asinine.

From Yale's Avalon Project (snipped from the University of South Florida's web site on the Holocaust): http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/PROGRAM.htm
The program of the German Workers' Party is an epochal program.


Note items like the abolition of all income not stemming from work [that's from the Russian communist constitution, and is decidly NOT socialist, or have you not heard of welfare?] total confiscation of all war profits [certainly never enacted by Hitler, whose dependence on IG Farben and Krupp necessitated his making nice with them, and even hindered full state rationalization of their war effort until 1943. The state control of the war effort is an area where America was far successfully "socialist", if this is what you think this is]more , nationalization of all trusts,[never came close to happening] profit sharing in large industries, [never came CLOSE to happening]the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, [LOL, never came close to happening} the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose, [only happened to the Jews, and for racist, not socialist reasons] state control of all education, [you don't know much about Germany, do you?]nationalized health care,[they already pretty much had this, again, read up on German history starting with Bismark in 1871] compulsory exercise,[WOW, so . . . socialist! :awe:] and the fight against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without.[do I need to point out that this was racist and not socialist? As in Russia, where MANY of the leading communists were Jews, so in Germany many were socialist!] These are very similar to other socialist organizations of the time, and indeed, of today. Note the call for the common good before individual good - parroted straight by today's socialists (and Democrats.)

Admittedly, Hitler's murderous ethnic nationalism swamped his party's socialist activities, but they never ceased. That he and his cronies rewarded their friends with lucrative contracts rather than confiscate their companies is no more than human nature among all political persuasions. This continuous attempt to cast Hitler as right wing is nothing more than a dishonest attempt to parlay control over education into political advantage.

Sorry, but that program, known as the 25 points, is from 1918, and does indicate the Nazi party origins in some degree of socialism.

However, again, in FACT, the Nazi part was never a true socialist party, and almost all vestiges of even pretending to be after Hitler gained power!

That stirring program which you linked to bears as much relevance to the true nature of the Nazi party as any formal Republican or Democratic party platform has to the actual policies pursued and implemented when either came to power.

And by the time Hilter came to power, the socialist part of the National Democratic Socialist Workers Party was a dying remnant, never to have any real life impact.

Btw, the National Democratic Socialist Workers Party also turned out not to be truly democratic or even much of a worker's party either.

No credible non-partisan academic considers the Nazis to have ever been truly socialist.

 

[werepossum]

Sorry, but that program, known as the 25 points, is from 1918, and does indicate the Nazi party origins in some degree of socialism.

However, again, in FACT, the Nazi part was never a true socialist party, and almost all vestiges of even pretending to be after Hitler gained power!

That stirring program which you linked to bears as much relevance to the true nature of the Nazi party as any formal Republican or Democratic party platform has to the actual policies pursued and implemented when either came to power.

And by the time Hilter came to power, the socialist part of the National Democratic Socialist Workers Party was a dying remnant, never to have any real life impact.

Btw, the National Democratic Socialist Workers Party also turned out not to be truly democratic or even much of a worker's party either.

No credible non-partisan academic considers the Nazis to have ever been truly socialist.

Handy how that works out. If they admit that the National Socialists were truly socialist then they are partisan, whereas if they deny that the National Socialists were ever really truly socialist then they are nonpartisan. Thus we are free to discount their socialist activities and positions completely, for to do otherwise is - partisan.

Amazing how the left always has such great luck in those convenient definitions. The right should adopt those too - if a televangelist gets caught doing the pool boy, obviously he was never conservative, just another left winger.

 

[Perknose]

Handy how that works out. If they admit that the National Socialists were truly socialist then they are partisan, whereas if they deny that the National Socialists were ever really truly socialist then they are nonpartisan.

Sorry, my imprecise language. Scholars say that while there were some scant remnants of socialist philosophy in the Nazi party, nevertheless, especially by the time they came to power, they couldn't be credibly or meaningfully categorized as a socialist party.

Better?

 

[werepossum]

Sorry, my imprecise language. Scholars say that while there were some scant remnants of socialist philosophy in the Nazi party, nevertheless, especially by the time they came to power, they couldn't be credibly or meaningfully categorized as a socialist party.

Better?

Better.

 

[Zebo]

All I know is Bush's grand pappy traded with him and leading industrialists of the Reich.