Washington State going back to a modified lockdown

[BUTCH1]

There are plenty of shining examples of how to do things correctly: Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, South Korea, most of the South Pacific, and even China. Despite differences in implementation a commonality between those nations is early implementation of controls and effective leadership.

It's pretty clear that early failures in controls and leadership have increased the difficulty of managing the pandemic in much of the world, especially the Americas and Europe. But there have also been failures in South East Asia which in general has coped well. In contrast to their neighbours, Indonesia and the Phillipines played down the severity of the pandemic early on and have suffered significantly more as a result.

The big difference is in those countries the people actually follow instructions, look at any public place and every single person is wearing a mask, here it's like pulling wisdom teeth to get people to comply, shit, we had a POTUS was COVID ignorant and proud of it, fucking POS.

 

[ivwshane]

Your one liner is propaganda - and you should know better.
Which is why I am disappointment in seeing it yet again.

The lay person's opposition isn't about business. They want people to keep jobs and income. You know, so people can maintain the small things like a roof over head or food on the table. They cannot conceive of a world where you voluntarily terminate millions of jobs and millions of people don't suddenly lose everything. Economic devastation is a very real fear of theirs. And considering America's safety net is !@#$ and most people fall through it..... why shouldn't we fear economic consequences?

It is about people's lives, every bit as much as the virus itself is. These are two facets that have to be weighed against each other, not just haphazardly ignored. And due to America's weak position with safety nets, there are no good answers for us. We will suffer pain and deaths for our deficiencies. Ones that cannot be fixed over night. We would have needed solutions in place last year before the Pandemic struck. America is just not built to handle turmoil in its current form.

But do not minimize the cost of losing income to "just Business". Cause I tell you, it's not Wall Street loosing their ass and getting kicked to the street.

Yeah, that’s pretty ignorant of you. If you save people’s lives then people can go about their regular business and businesses can get going again.

But you go ahead and put the priority of businesses starting open over people’s lives, I’m sure it will turn out different this time.

 

[Jaskalas]

See my response to blackangst1. Same applies to your posts.

You tell those poor people facing the street to just "put their big boy pants on".

 

[Jaskalas]

Yeah, that’s pretty ignorant of you. If you save people’s lives then people can go about their regular business and businesses can get going again.

But you go ahead and put the priority of businesses starting open over people’s lives, I’m sure it will turn out different this time.

FFS, how many times do you need to be told that jobs and income are not just "business"?

 

[brycejones]

You tell those poor people facing the street to just "put their big boy pants on".

NO WE SUPPORT THEM. That's part of putting our big boy pants on. Have some imagination. I am pretty sure this isn't the first time you've been told this binary choice you constantly like to present isn't quite so binary.

1. Take steps to get the spread under control - Give people direct payments during this time.
2. Fix our testing capabilities. We need to reliably provide results in hours for millions of tests per day.
3. Ramp up contact tracing.
4. Mandate masks.
5. Mandate quarantines as necessary for those that are exposed. Put in place systems to ensure these people are not financially screwed.
6. Mandate tracking to facilitate contact tracing.

Once the rate of new cases is down to the point where we can manage spread in the population through testing and contact tracing you can open things up and actually have a chance of success. Our failure to do any of these things back in March and April has led us directly to this point.

This is what I mean by put on our big boy pants.

 

[Jaskalas]

NO WE SUPPORT THEM. That's part of putting our big boy pants on. Have some imagination.

We don't have that kind of power, to do what needs to be done to help people.

American government remains divided. Even if it wasn't - we would still have infighting over how far we need to go. The seizing of housing Loans would be quite expensive, controversial too. Basic Income equally so. Though the latter pays for the Former. I can imagine quite a bit, and put those ideas to words. Action, though? I am deeply troubled over the election and the strength of our opponent. I am disheartened over the idea that America could ever act in time to make a difference.

A safety net can be formed, but not over night. Not over Republican objection. Not while our people remain uneducated and trapped in right wing alt-reality.

 

[Zorba]

I think people don't understand the downstream effects of covid on the healthcare system

Let's say you break your leg tomorrow or start bleeding from you GI tract or have a heart attack. Many areas are so full that you won't be able to get into an ER or be hospitalized where you need to be because the hospital is full of COVID patients. Instead of waiting 30 mins, you may wait 2-3 days. You end up getting suboptimal care and will pay the price. If there is one hospital close to you that can fix what you need fixed and it's full because of COVID, you're going to pay the price with your own medical issues. There was an article published this way earlier year that even at the time of the article when you account for all the direct deaths from covid this year, there were at least 60000 unexpected deaths which probably are the results of downstream effects of what's happening with covid and our healthcare systems.

This is a real emergency people. It's not a joke.

If you look at the excess death charts from the CDC, you see a spike in "non-covid" deaths, every time there is a spike in covid deaths as well. Some of this is likely missed COVID, but a lot of it is likely people not seeking/getting medical help when needed.

 

[ivwshane]

We don't have that kind of power, to do what needs to be done to help people.

American government remains divided. Even if it wasn't - we would still have infighting over how far we need to go. The seizing of housing Loans would be quite expensive, controversial too. Basic Income equally so. Though the latter pays for the Former. I can imagine quite a bit, and put those ideas to words. Action, though? I am deeply troubled over the election and the strength of our opponent. I am disheartened over the idea that America could ever act in time to make a difference.

A safety net can be formed, but not over night. Not over Republican objection. Not while our people remain uneducated and trapped in right wing alt-reality.

We have lots of power you just fail to exercise it and failed to vote for people capable of coming up with solutions. I hope you realize that your decades of voting for shit politicians is now biting us in the ass.

The smart solution isn't to double down on the garbage you supported for decades but to rather suck it up now and make the necessary changes you claim to support since your "awakening".

 

[brycejones]

We don't have that kind of power, to do what needs to be done to help people.

American government remains divided. Even if it wasn't - we would still have infighting over how far we need to go. The seizing of housing Loans would be quite expensive, controversial too. Basic Income equally so. Though the latter pays for the Former. I can imagine quite a bit, and put those ideas to words. Action, though? I am deeply troubled over the election and the strength of our opponent. I am disheartened over the idea that America could ever act in time to make a difference.

A safety net can be formed, but not over night. Not over Republican objection. Not while our people remain uneducated and trapped in right wing alt-reality.

Instead of fighting for what you seem to agree is right you just throw your hands up in the air and embrace mass death.

 

[pmv]

Makes you wish we did this right from the beginning, huh? The Euro countries with stronger initial responses have a faster economic recovery. Turns out when several hundred thousand people die, people get scared and the economy tanks. Even "open" businesses are suffering.

I have to say I don't know what I think about it any more. Initially I was instinctively in favour of a forceful and rapid 'lockdown' (especially reducing international travel, which was very obviously the initial 'seed' of the disease here in UK). But as time has gone on it seems as if different countries have tried different approaches, and as far as I can see, little of it has made much difference either to the spread of the disease or the economic damage. Sweden did it's "outlier" "no lockdown" thing, and suffered a massive first wave of death, and while everyone said the countries that had lockdowns would get a second-wave as soon as they let it up - and that seems to be being borne out...Sweden is experiencing a second wave as well. Plus they haven't avoided an economic hit. Germany did well with the first wave, but is now seeing a large second one.

The only country that seems to have done well, as far as I can make out, is New Zealand, and geography means they had an easier time of stopping people bringing it into the country to start with.

Kind of seems as if there's really no way to avoid either the public health hit _or_ the economic hit. At most you can make small shifts between those two things (depending on who has more power - the workers who face the former risk or the owners of capital who are more worried about the latter).

 

[pmv]

FFS, how many times do you need to be told that jobs and income are not just "business"?

There is a difference though. Between those whose income is dependent on going to workplaces and interacting with others, and risking infection, and those for whom it's about collecting dividends and share-price increases, or who can work at home in a white-collar job. For the former it's a horrible trade-off, for the latter it's a much more one-sided situation.

It would also be skewed for those who have a nice pension...but then there's the additional risk that comes with age that kind of cancels that out.

 

[fskimospy]

I have to say I don't know what I think about it any more. Initially I was instinctively in favour of a forceful and rapid 'lockdown' (especially reducing international travel, which was very obviously the initial 'seed' of the disease here in UK). But as time has gone on it seems as if different countries have tried different approaches, and as far as I can see, little of it has made much difference either to the spread of the disease or the economic damage. Sweden did it's "outlier" "no lockdown" thing, and suffered a massive first wave of death, and while everyone said the countries that had lockdowns would get a second-wave as soon as they let it up - and that seems to be being borne out...Sweden is experiencing a second wave as well. Plus they haven't avoided an economic hit. Germany did well with the first wave, but is now seeing a large second one.

The only country that seems to have done well, as far as I can make out, is New Zealand, and geography means they had an easier time of stopping people bringing it into the country to start with.

Kind of seems as if there's really no way to avoid either the public health hit _or_ the economic hit. At most you can make small shifts between those two things (depending on who has more power - the workers who face the former risk or the owners of capital who are more worried about the latter).

Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea have all done much better. While western countries have generally done poorly there is an enormous gulf between the best performing western countries and the worst.

 

[pmv]

Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea have all done much better. While western countries have generally done poorly there is an enormous gulf between the best performing western countries and the worst.

Maybe I need to look at those countries more closely. Mostly, much as I'd like to blame Trump (and he's clearly been an idiot throughout the whole thing) it's just looking really grim and depressing almost everywhere. And the anti-vaxx Qanon madness seems not to be limited to the US either.

 

[fskimospy]

Maybe I need to look at those countries more closely. Mostly, much as I'd like to blame Trump (and he's clearly been an idiot throughout the whole thing) it's just looking really grim and depressing almost everywhere. And the anti-vaxx Qanon madness seems not to be limited to the US either.

South Korea had 223 new COVID cases yesterday in a country of 50 million people. I guess if we adjusted it for US population that’s about 1,500 cases a day. Instead we are approaching 200,000. They also suffered much less of an economic hit than we did.

I think Trump’s response has been a humanitarian catastrophe but I do agree that it was going to be bad even if someone competent and sane was in charge. I think our culture and societies are just not well equipped to handle this.

 

[BoomerD]

If Washington wasn't so incompetent, we wouldn't have to lockdown as hard or as often.

Really, it seems to be more people who refuse to mask up than anything the state has done. "But...mah FREE-DUMB!" is their wailing cry...

Fucking morons. Wearing a mask when out in public is a mile annoyance...but it's a NECESSARY annoyance.

Business over people! Amiright?!

Please show where I said something so fucking stupid...I mean...I hain't no rockit syentest ner nuthin...but there has to be a balance between keeping people safe and healthy and keeping small businesses afloat...and a lot of it comes down to the stupid fucking morons who refuse to mask up and/or maintain any kind of social distancing.

I live in a VERY red county in Warshington...most of the locals are adamant about not wearing masks...and raise billy-hell when a business, be it grocery or hardware store, or a local bar tell them to mask up or get out.

One of the local pubs (that nearly went under the last time) has this sign when you walk in the door:

 

[skyking]

Business would be just as disrupted by the virus outbreak as it would be by lockdowns. That is the reality nobody wants to face: you're fucked either way, businesses.
It's much better to play the blame game, though.

 

[Nereus77]

What good is business if everybody is dead? No people, no business.
Hence the people's health is of greater concern than the economy.

 

[pmv]

I'm fine with wearing a mask, I just want windscreen wipers/defoggers on my glasses. Is that too much to ask?

 

[nickqt]

I'm fine with wearing a mask, I just want windscreen wipers/defoggers on my glasses. Is that too much to ask?

Wipe a little shaving cream on em and wipe it off.

 

[pauldun170]

You tell those poor people facing the street to just "put their big boy pants on".

This is the United States.
Half the country has perfected the art of telling the poor to go fuck themselves. Imaging being Black or Brown and not only do you get told to fuck yourselves, you get told "It's in your nature".
People have been told to put our big boy pants on, pull our bootstraps up and whatever bullshit for ages.
Being met with disingenuous calls to "Think of the poors" from certain people who will rage fuck their keyboards as soon as you say the word "welfare".

"Think about the emotional costs!!!"
"People are going to go in debt"
"Think of the Children!!"

I remember when we mocked people who would resort to the Think of the Children argument.

I'll tell the "new poors" to put their big boy pants on right after you tell Trumptards to wear a fucking mask.
This all comes down to Americans led by the president and whatever other bullshit they subscribe to telling each other not to wear masks using bullshit justification.

Instead of appealing to the "feels" of everyone, why don't you speak in hard numbers.
What is an acceptable mortality rate to you?
What is the number of annual deaths that you find acceptable? We're at 1/4 million now creeping up to the 9 month mark. What's the number that we should hit before governments...before society enforces measures to control the spread of the virus and resulting deaths?

Lock downs exists because people refuse to take safety measures.
Infection rates are high because people refuse to take safety measure.
The current economic and unemployment situation is directly fucking related to people who refuse to take safety measures and have continued to act like fools.

Business? The poor?
Root cause isn't the lock downs.
Root cause are people who embrace stupidity.

In Washington's case, imagine if everyone in the state took basic precautions. What do you think happens after 2 weeks?

He announced $50 million in new grants and loans for small businesses to help soften the blow, but said the state desperately needs more aid from the federal government.

Imagine if the Federal government actually functioned as intended and was not head up by a fascist prick back by pricks in the senate.

 

[pmv]

Wipe a little shaving cream on em and wipe it off.

I'll give that a try. Tired of stumbling around the supermarket unable to compare the prices of anything.

 

[Jaskalas]

Instead of fighting for what you seem to agree is right you just throw your hands up in the air and embrace mass death.

If efforts to protect people would be "over their dead bodies" as Republicans opt to claim, then any effort embraces "mass death". One way or another.

Civil unrest to "stop" the virus is no victory at all. Without the economic backdrop to act with courage and certainty, America has no good answer to COVID.

2020 is a no win scenario. Face it.

 

[pmv]

Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea have all done much better. While western countries have generally done poorly there is an enormous gulf between the best performing western countries and the worst.

I just find it particuarly dispiriting that Germany, who made a pretty good job of dealing with the first wave, is now suffering a second one that is far worse. They seem to be losing control of it, compared to the first time round. And in case one thinks 'ha, told you lockdowns would just cause a second wave', you have Sweden that had no lockdown and _still_ has a bad second wave. And for good measure Spain and Italy and France, having had it bad enough the first time, are now seeing even more cases. At least in 'the West', there seems no end in sight to this.
As I'm personally already in poor health, it's all rather getting me down. Just had another CT scan (to check how much of my brain is missing...or at least how much it's been compressed to a new more compact form-factor - that allows higher clock speeds, no?) and was nervous about going to the hospital to have it done as I know they have quite a few cases being treated there.

 

[sandorski]

I just find it particuarly dispiriting that Germany, who made a pretty good job of dealing with the first wave, is now suffering a second one that is far worse. They seem to be losing control of it, compared to the first time round. And in case one thinks 'ha, told you lockdowns would just cause a second wave', you have Sweden that had no lockdown and _still_ has a bad second wave. And for good measure Spain and Italy and France, having had it bad enough the first time, are now seeing even more cases. At least in 'the West', there seems no end in sight to this.
As I'm personally already in poor health, it's all rather getting me down. Just had another CT scan (to check how much of my brain is missing...or at least how much it's been compressed to a new more compact form-factor - that allows higher clock speeds, no?) and was nervous about going to the hospital to have it done as I know they have quite a few cases being treated there.

We are breaking Records here in Canada as well. It's largely because we are back Indoors now.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Something tells me the majority of Americans are going to be pissed if they try to do another lockdown and it won't go as well as planned....

Not that I care from my working from home executive desk with 3 monitors....