Was the intent of our founding fathers really to have seperation of church/state?
- Thread starter AFB
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- Oct 30, 2000
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They did not want the governemnt to dictate a religion or a religion to control the government.
The Church of England was a big problem adn they wanted to prevent a similar occurance.
The problems comes with the government acknowledging a religion, then all must be acknowledged.
Then what consitutes a religion?
The Church of England was a big problem adn they wanted to prevent a similar occurance.
The problems comes with the government acknowledging a religion, then all must be acknowledged.
Then what consitutes a religion?
It isn't mentioned by name in the constitution or bill of rights but it is in the writings of TJ.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
The term "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
The term "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution.
The term does not appear, but an explanation of the amendment later given by Thomas Jefferson
does specifically make use of that term. And those writings were later used by the Supreme Court
to better define the 1st Amendment in regard to church/government relations. At which point it
became a standard part of Constitutional Law.
does specifically make use of that term. And those writings were later used by the Supreme Court
to better define the 1st Amendment in regard to church/government relations. At which point it
became a standard part of Constitutional Law.
Lol I can't believe my eyes but are you trying to weasel in your oily reasoning to support the fusion of church and state?
In his letter to the Dansbury Baptist Association Jefferson spoke of the Constitution "building a wall of separation between church and State."
What do you think Jefferson meant by that?
You guys have to understand that Riprorn wants to save your soul. He loves his fellow man and is doing his best to get you guys into heaven. To do that you must accept Jesus as your lord and savior and being reborn. This is so important to him that he will stop at nothing to convert you and save your soul. Using the state to get you to accept his version of Jesus is only a baby step for him. He would go much further than that if asked to.
The founding fathers didn't say that church and religion have no place in government. They said that government shouldn't control it. Using newer translations of the constitution (thanks a lot loose-constructionism!) to do stuff like banning nativity scenes on public property is twisting the meanings of those words.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Jefferson believed (rightly IMO) that religious clergy could not be trusted with influence in government. That they would, if allowed, and as they had done repeatedly in the past, influence government to fund their religions and force their particular views upon a mostly unwilling populace who may wish to worship God in a different fashion.
The full quote in my sig is:
"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
While a believer (as I am), Jefferson believed (as I do) that the clergy of major religions are a corrupt force that use their power from their congregations to extract money and power from the people at large, and that government is their favorite means to that end. In short, he believed (as I do) that it is the priests who are the real moneychangers in the temple of God.
I have asked this question here before: do you worship God, or a book? Now I ask: do you worship God, or a church? If I save your soul, but you did not want me to, is your soul really saved?
edit: Put the Dr. Pepper down, I'll fight for the n00b. Been looking forward to this discussion with Rip.
The full quote in my sig is:
"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
While a believer (as I am), Jefferson believed (as I do) that the clergy of major religions are a corrupt force that use their power from their congregations to extract money and power from the people at large, and that government is their favorite means to that end. In short, he believed (as I do) that it is the priests who are the real moneychangers in the temple of God.
I have asked this question here before: do you worship God, or a book? Now I ask: do you worship God, or a church? If I save your soul, but you did not want me to, is your soul really saved?
edit: Put the Dr. Pepper down, I'll fight for the n00b. Been looking forward to this discussion with Rip.
Right on. TJ had seen tyranny from the church and of the Crown. He wanted to make sure his plan to live without the latter wasn't spoiled by the former. That the church didn't step in to fill the tyranny vacuum.
The "wall of separation between church and State" appeared in a letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association. Jefferson's letter was in response to a letter sent by the Association in which they expressed concern about religious liberty in the new nation.
In his response, Jefferson writes:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
Here Jefferson reaffirms the First Amendment and reassures the Danbury Baptists that they have no need to fear the federal government as far as their faith and religous beliefs are concerned. The First Amendment actually creates a wall to protect them. Incidently, the metaphor of the wall was taken from Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church of America who talked about a wall being erected around the garden of the Church to protect it.
In his response, Jefferson writes:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
Here Jefferson reaffirms the First Amendment and reassures the Danbury Baptists that they have no need to fear the federal government as far as their faith and religous beliefs are concerned. The First Amendment actually creates a wall to protect them. Incidently, the metaphor of the wall was taken from Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church of America who talked about a wall being erected around the garden of the Church to protect it.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
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Look at history, things get bloody when a government sponsored a religion or a religion ran a country. I rather not go back to the bad old days.
Do you know what Thomas Jefferson did on Sunday, Janurary 3, 1802, two days after his letter was sent to the Dansbury Baptists?
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Of course, the wall of separation is to protect both entities, church and state. Keeping them apart protects them from corrupting each other. It also is a compromise between the various churches so that all may worship freely and without the interference or burden of a particular state church.
And these rights still exist, free as ever. The problem IMO is that many religious groups think that they should be allowed to cross that wall. That they should be entitled to government money (i.e. "faith-based" charities), that they should be allowed to proselytize to other peoples' children inside the public schools, and that they should be allowed to create and enfore laws based on particular religious beliefs. And, in some odd Orwellian fashion, these religious groups believe that crossing this wall of separation is critical to their freedom of religious expression, despite the fact these acts clearly infringe on the religious freedoms of other people.
I understand that, like most everything political going on these days, there exists a battle between opposing extremists that do not represent the mostly moderate views of the general public. The issue there, Rip, is that I see you in one of the extremist camps.
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