WARNING: Watching Anti-Islam Videos Leads to Independent Thought!!

[realibrad]

Well no, there is no one way to practice Islam. The same with Christianity.

Anti-gay is a cultural thing

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...are-most-and-least-tolerant-of-homosexuality/

Religion is a reflection of culture. Islam influences culture as culture influences Islam. The thing about religions is that they hold on to things as a buffer for changing cultures. Its hard to get something into religious beliefs, but once its there, its hard to get it out. So, to say that anti-gay is a culture thing is pretty stupid, as its apart of many of the major religious texts. You cant say that Christianity and Islam directly say homosexual acts are sins, and then say that religion does not take a stance. Yes, culture interprets the texts, but there is only so much room for interpretation for things like "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death" in Christianity.

In Islam, you get this.

[وَاللَّذَانَ يَأْتِيَـنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَاذُوهُمَا]
(And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both.) Ibn `Abbas and Sa`id bin Jubayr said that this punishment includes cursing, shaming them and beating them with sandals. This was the ruling until Allah abrogated it with flogging or stoning, as we stated. Mujahid said, "It was revealed about the case of two men who do it. As if he was referring to the actions of the people of Lut, and Allah knows best. The collectors of Sunan recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«مَنْ رَأَيْتُمُوهُ يَعْمَلُ عَمَلَ قَوْمِ لُوطٍ، فَاقْتُلُوا الْفَاعِلَ وَالْمَفْعُولَ بِه»

(Whoever you catch committing the act of the people of Lut (homosexuality), then kill both parties to the act.)

You cannot claim that anti-gay is just a culture thing, as its pretty explicit in many religions.

 

[Jaskalas]

It's progressing

Such progress...
Much solution...
"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country."

 

[realibrad]

Such progress...
Much solution...
"In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country."

Just a heads up, but this.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/10/10/us-iran-gays-idUSBLA05294620071010

Iran's president was misrepresented by Western media when he was quoted saying there were no gays in Iran, and actually meant there were not so many as in the United States, a presidential aide said on Wednesday

I am not defending Ahmadinejad, but I thought this was cleared up in 2007.

But, it did also say this.

Homosexuality is punishable by death in the Islamic Republic

And the article was from 2007, but it also had this.

New York-based Human Rights Watch said in May the last person known "with reasonable certainty" to have been sentenced to execution in Iran for consensual homosexual conduct was in 2005. But it did not know if the sentence had been carried out.

So yes, the US is not even close to this type of anti-gay crap.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Religion is a reflection of culture. Islam influences culture as culture influences Islam. The thing about religions is that they hold on to things as a buffer for changing cultures. Its hard to get something into religious beliefs, but once its there, its hard to get it out. So, to say that anti-gay is a culture thing is pretty stupid, as its apart of many of the major religious texts. You cant say that Christianity and Islam directly say homosexual acts are sins, and then say that religion does not take a stance. Yes, culture interprets the texts, but there is only so much room for interpretation for things like "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death" in Christianity.

In Islam, you get this.



You cannot claim that anti-gay is just a culture thing, as its pretty explicit in many religions.

When I said culture, I was aware that religion is part of a culture

 

[Omar F1]

Ignoring, distorting, and lying seems to be human nature. I do not see any proof of a god. The only "evidence" I know of, comes from other people, who you already have stated ignore, distort and lie. When I am told that miracles happen, but I just have not seen them, why should I believe them? There are many different gods, and descriptions of gods out there. How do I know which one to believe? Why would I think that any one of them is the right one? Could it not be that all the lying people out there lied and made up the gods?

As I said, the evidence is there if you just take a scrutinizing look right into yourself.
(وفي أنفسكم أفلا تبصرو&#1606 - It's inside yourself, don't you see it.

How possible it could be that all those complicated systems interconnected together to be made out of nowhere. There is a master behind this magnificent creation; that is our believe, and simply that is the one who we're worshipping.

How about the universe around us, all those planets running around with an impossible-to-imagine level of precision.
Yet, it was ruled out long ago that the earth is our only place of living, dying, and then the resurrection.
(لا االشمس ينبغي لها أن تدرك القمر ولا الليل سابق النهار، وكل في فلك يسبحو&#1606.


I know you're asking for a hard evidence, but I'd say that if you abandon the rule that 1+1=2, then a whole different standards would open for you.
Personally, I believe that 1+1 equals anything from null to infinity

 

[Blanky]

Forget about Daesh..
We have several posters right here who also insist all Muslims follow Islam according to their interpretation

You can't name a single poster here and cite the exact post in which they say that, can you. Do you realize what this makes you?

 

[Orignal Earl]

You can't name a single poster here and cite the exact post in which they say that, can you. Do you realize what this makes you?

You must of missed the thousands of Islam posts here. It's pretty easy to search, open the search feature, type in Islam and then click P&N

It's hard to believe but you just made a post saying that Muslims believe that killing Jews, Christians, ect is ok just last night

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2434728

 

[realibrad]

When I said culture, I was aware that religion is part of a culture

Implicit in your statement is that religion is not anti gay. That is wrong. Religion teaches people its a sin to be gay or do gay things. Do you not believe religion is a major reason for anti-gay feelings?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Implicit in your statement is that religion is not anti gay. That is wrong. Religion teaches people its a sin to be gay or do gay things. Do you not believe religion is a major reason for anti-gay feelings?

This was my statement "Anti-gay is a cultural thing". I don't see how you get that religion is not anti gay out of that

I thought it was laid out pretty good in the link I posted with my comment.

How do you explain how a religious person from a rich country can be more open to gay people, while a person from the same faith but a poor country can be more condemning?

 

[Omar F1]

Implicit in your statement is that religion is not anti gay. That is wrong. Religion teaches people its a sin to be gay or do gay things. Do you not believe religion is a major reason for anti-gay feelings?

Orginal Earl meant culture-wise view, and he is correct by the way; gays are a bit more understandable than say a few decades ago.
However, religious view is strictly forbiding any form of gay relations, and in conservative countries you better not caught in act, but also worth to note that we aren't ordered to search the homes -this is very important concept btw, I hope you don't just pass over it.

You've already mentioned that Hadith which simply order the death penalty for the gays "if they got caught in act", and the actual act should be very clear and obvious, not build on assumption or guess.

There is the known story of the prophet Lout, son of Haroun, which is the brother of Abraham, peace be upon them all. When his people were known to be gays and insisted on making it publicly.
Later on when the time came for their punishment the sky reigned stones, which rendered the town up-down.
The place is reported to near the dead sea in Jordan.

This is simply the cause of the very strict anti-gays stance by the three religions.

 

[realibrad]

This was my statement "Anti-gay is a cultural thing". I don't see how you get that religion is not anti gay out of that

I thought it was laid out pretty good in the link I posted with my comment.

How do you explain how a religious person from a rich country can be more open to gay people, while a person from the same faith but a poor country can be more condemning?

Context and the words you used.

The context was that religion was a reason that anti gay beliefs were in society. You countered with the comment that religion can be practiced different ways, then added that "Anti-gay is a cultural thing".

This would imply that Islam itself does not cause anti-gay feelings inherently, because it could be practiced different ways, and one such way would be to not be anti-gay.

If a follower wanted to follow the rules of the religion, they would need to be anti-gay, as the religion is very clear about homosexual relations.

For some reason, we treat religion and its followers than we would other categories. If a person says they are a vegetarian but they eat chicken, you would say they were not a vegetarian. If a guy said he was a virgin because he only did anal sex, you would not call him a virgin. If a religious person picks and chooses the parts they want to follow, they are still a part of the religion.

 

[realibrad]

Orginal Earl meant culture-wise view, and he is correct by the way; gays are a bit more understandable than say a few decades ago.
However, religious view is strictly forbiding any form of gay relations, and in conservative countries you better not caught in act, but also worth to note that we aren't ordered to search the homes -this is very important concept btw, I hope you don't just pass over it.

You've already mentioned that Hadith which simply order the death penalty for the gays "if they got caught in act", and the actual act should be very clear and obvious, not build on assumption or guess.

There is the known story of the prophet Lout, son of Haroun, which is the brother of Abraham, peace be upon them all. When his people were known to be gays and insisted on making it publicly.
Later on when the time came for their punishment the sky reigned stones, which rendered the town up-down.
The place is reported to near the dead sea in Jordan.

This is simply the cause of the very strict anti-gays stance by the three religions.

People should not have to hide in fear in hopes they don't get caught and put to death.

 

[Omar F1]

People should not have to hide in fear in hopes they don't get caught and put to death.

Unfortunately the rules and the legislations were set by the creator himself, we dont't tailor them to our needs.
As I always say, go and commit sins as much as you have to, but don't alter the original context to your like and call it a God's judgement.
That's simply a very important difference between the Muslims and the Jews/Christians,since they both have a lot of stories that clearly oppose some Quran contexts.

 

[Orignal Earl]

If a follower wanted to follow the rules of the religion, they would need to be anti-gay, as the religion is very clear about homosexual relations.

When you quoted the link I posted, I assumed you read it

The diverse ways of understanding of the Qur'an are echoed in the documentary by Dr Scott Siraj al-Haqq Kugle of Swarthmore College in the United States, currently a research fellow at Leiden University in the Netherlands. He believes that sharia – Islamic law – is determined by male jurists whose interpretations of Islamic texts are based on cultural assumptions situated in particular times, and particular political and geographical locations. Rather than sharia being divine, Kugle believes that it offers different avenues for Muslims to live their lives. He also points out that there is no word in the Qur'an for "gay" or "homosexual", and no mention of lesbians.

 

[realibrad]

Unfortunately the rules and the legislations were set by the creator himself, we dont't tailor them to our needs.
As I always say, go and commit sins as much as you have to, but don't alter the original context to your like and call it a God's judgement.
That's simply a very important difference between the Muslims and the Jews/Christians,since they both have a lot of stories that clearly oppose some Quran contexts.

Ask your self this. Knowing how corrupted man is, and the limited ability we have to understand things, are you 100% sure that the Quran is 100% correct? To be clear, I am asking if you think over the years, that people might have corrupted the texts and thus the religion. You have already said that you think man is sinful and corrupts, so do you think it could have happened to Islam? I would imagine that you believe god would allow the corruption, as he has allowed the corruption of the world, so are you 100% sure that the rules that you follow are rules put forth by god, or could they be rules that man have tried to pass off as god's rules?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Omar, which sect of Islam do you follow?

 

[realibrad]

When you quoted the link I posted, I assumed you read it

When you responded to my post, I assumed you had actually read it.

«مَنْ رَأَيْتُمُوهُ يَعْمَلُ عَمَلَ قَوْمِ لُوطٍ، فَاقْتُلُوا الْفَاعِلَ وَالْمَفْعُولَ بِه»

(Whoever you catch committing the act of the people of Lut (homosexuality), then kill both parties to the act.)

But, lets dig into this a little deeper in Islam. I do this, because Christianity is a bit more clear on hits bigotry.

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

This passage is pretty clear that homosexual acts is bad. It does not use the word homosexual, but it does make it pretty clear.

There is also this.

Book 38, Number 4447:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

So, people can ignore the parts of the religion they do not like like many do, but its still a part of the religion.

Culture can push people to ignore things, but culture is not where anti-gay feelings completely start and end. Religion has a massive role to play there.

 

[Orignal Earl]

When you responded to my post, I assumed you had actually read it.



But, lets dig into this a little deeper in Islam. I do this, because Christianity is a bit more clear on hits bigotry.



This passage is pretty clear that homosexual acts is bad. It does not use the word homosexual, but it does make it pretty clear.

There is also this.



So, people can ignore the parts of the religion they do not like like many do, but its still a part of the religion.

Culture can push people to ignore things, but culture is not where anti-gay feelings completely start and end. Religion has a massive role to play there.

Just the word homosexual means different things to people from different countries, like the link said
Then you have a hundred different meanings to every verse
There is Muslim scholars that debate it all every day since it all began
Then you have an Arabic to English translation

I don't think what you have decided is pretty clear is exactly that clear
The next time your sitting with a bunch of your friends ( who follow different Christian sects) try asking them what the Bible says

 

[realibrad]

Just the word homosexual means different things to people from different countries, like the link said
Then you have a hundred different meanings to every verse
There is Muslim scholars that debate it all every day since it all began
Then you have an Arabic to English translation

I don't think what you have decided is pretty clear is exactly that clear

Wow, you are pretty flexible. The meaning of homosexuality is not really the issue here, because as you have already explained, the word is not in the Quran. What is in the Quran is the description of what is bad.

For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds

The word homosexual is not needed, when it says that men whom practice lust on men are transgressing. The Quran explains how it is against homosexuality in an indirect way. There is no wiggle room on this, as it clearly says that when men practice lust on other men they are doing something wrong.

Edit*

My friends ignorance about their religious texts has nothing to do with the religious texts containing things. Just because people do not know what is in their religious texts has nothing to do with what is actually in them. The contention is not if we are better off with people ignoring the anti-gay views of their religion. The claim is that religion is inhibiting society from moving forward with gay rights.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Wow, you are pretty flexible. The meaning of homosexuality is not really the issue here, because as you have already explained, the word is not in the Quran. What is in the Quran is the description of what is bad.



The word homosexual is not needed, when it says that men whom practice lust on men are transgressing. The Quran explains how it is against homosexuality in an indirect way. There is no wiggle room on this, as it clearly says that when men practice lust on other men they are doing something wrong.

Edit*

My friends ignorance about their religious texts has nothing to do with the religious texts containing things. Just because people do not know what is in their religious texts has nothing to do with what is actually in them. The contention is not if we are better off with people ignoring the anti-gay views of their religion. The claim is that religion is inhibiting society from moving forward with gay rights.

Do you think the Muslim Canadian Congress is ignorant about their religion?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Implicit in your statement is that religion is not anti gay. That is wrong. Religion teaches people its a sin to be gay or do gay things. Do you not believe religion is a major reason for anti-gay feelings?

Really? Which sect of which religion? For example, Christianity seems to have a rather wide range of interpretations/reactions:

not a problem:

"On June 19, 2014, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the largest U.S. Presbyterian body, voted to change its definition of marriage and allow its pastors to officiate same-sex ceremonies in states where gay marriage is legal. By a vote of 429-175, leaders of the 1.76 million-member Church voted during the biennial General Assembly in Detroit to change the denomination's Book of Order to describe marriage as being between "two people".[71][72] It approved the ordination of non-celibate gays on July 8, 2010, when, by a vote of 373 to 323, the General Assembly voted to propose to the presbyteries a constitutional amendment to remove the restriction against the ordination of partnered homosexuals. This action required ratification by a majority of the 173 presbyteries within 12 months for the proposed amendment to take effect.[73][74] On May 10, 2011, a majority of the presbyteries voted to approve the constitutional change.[75] It took effect on July 10, 2011."

A problem:

"Other, smaller American Presbyterian bodies, such as the Presbyterian Church in America,[76] the Evangelical Presbyterian Church,[77] the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church,[78] and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church[79] condemn same-sex sexual behavior as incompatible with Biblical morality, but believe gays and lesbians can repent and abandon the lifestyle."

not a problem:

"Quakers in many countries, such as Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, are supportive of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people, seeing this as necessary aspect of the Equality Testimony and part of historical Quaker activism against injustice and oppression. Quakers in these countries have become active in the fight for equality of marriage for same-sex couples, and perform same-sex commitment or marriage ceremonies as part of Quaker business."

a problem:

"Homosexuality is considered in the Roman Catholic Church teaching under two distinct aspects. Homosexuality as an orientation is considered an "objective disorder" because seen as "ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil", but not as sinful. Homosexuality as sexual activity is seen as a "moral disorder" and "homosexual acts" as "contrary to the natural law."

not a problem:

"The United Church of Canada, the largest Protestant denomination in Canada, affirms that gay and lesbian persons are welcome in the church and the ministry. The resolution "A) That all persons, regardless of their sexual orientation, who profess Jesus Christ and obedience to Him, are welcome to be or become full member of the Church. B) All members of the Church are eligible to be considered for the Ordered Ministry." was passed in 1988."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

Oh dear, confusion and disagreements over doctrine and belief.

Who would have thought that religion could be so complicated.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Do you think the Muslim Canadian Congress is ignorant about their religion?

What the hell would they know about Islam?!!! Surely they can't know more than all the experts in this fine forum.

 

[realibrad]

Do you think the Muslim Canadian Congress is ignorant about their religion?

You are going to have to give more than a single sentence for me to understand what you mean. I do not know much about the "Muslim Canadian congress" and their claims.

So far as I can tell with a quick google search, they are ignoring or are ignorant about the teachings of the Quran and homosexuality. If they have explained how they got around the Quran being explicitly against homosexuality, then I am glad to read it. I would love to have a logical counter to anti-gay beliefs. As of yet though, you have simply asked a question and not given anything to back it up.

 

[Orignal Earl]

You are going to have to give more than a single sentence for me to understand what you mean. I do not know much about the "Muslim Canadian congress" and their claims.

So far as I can tell with a quick google search, they are ignoring or are ignorant about the teachings of the Quran and homosexuality. If they have explained how they got around the Quran being explicitly against homosexuality, then I am glad to read it. I would love to have a logical counter to anti-gay beliefs. As of yet though, you have simply asked a question and not given anything to back it up.

Again, it was in the link you quoted of mine "Gay Muslims"

Do you think it's logical that Muslims are wrong about their religion and you are right?

 

[Omar F1]

Ask your self this. Knowing how corrupted man is, and the limited ability we have to understand things, are you 100% sure that the Quran is 100% correct? To be clear, I am asking if you think over the years, that people might have corrupted the texts and thus the religion. You have already said that you think man is sinful and corrupts, so do you think it could have happened to Islam? I would imagine that you believe god would allow the corruption, as he has allowed the corruption of the world, so are you 100% sure that the rules that you follow are rules put forth by god, or could they be rules that man have tried to pass off as god's rules?

I'm not gonna list our claims of who we were, since you're questioning the integrity of our history.
But first lets try and simplify something.

We claim that Gabriel was the sole messenger between the God and Mohamed, so all the Quran verses were reported by him (throughout 23-years), Mohamed memorized them, and later by his close followers after then.
So, we can say it was either Mohamed who lied, or his fellowers, or possibly any subsequent generation after that.

However, I must infer by what Quraish, the ruling tribe back then, said about the Quran; it is neither poetry nor the normal talk of humans, it's a magic - as some had claimed.
Since we say that the Jesus' miracles were healing the diseased, resurrection of the dead and talking since he was infant; Mohamed's one was the Quran itself, brought to the masters of the Arabic language back then.

That said, and taking the hostility between the Muslims, the Jews and Christians on the other side into consideration; are you aware of any reputable historian that claims the Quran was distorted at some time throughout the past 1400-years? Noting that Jews and Christians were living around or among them during that, and they were Arabs as well.

Another point to mention, the Shittes, the hardline of them has gone too far in inventing and beliving in a lot of mythical stories especially about Ali, they're going too far when they're cursing and insulting the closest followers of the Phrophet while the Quran itself claimed the God have accepted them all. They clearly missed the road, blinded by their arrogance and ignorance, backed by suspected Hadith or otherwise balatant lies in some of their legislations.
But amid this conflict, you may go and acquire a Quran copy from Iran and another from Saudi Arabia; would you find any difference at all?
Shittes aren't alone btw, as there were tens of different Islamic groups through the history with some being much more radical than Iran/Iraq's Shiites, yet we claim the Quran haven't been distorted.

(We brought the Quran and we will preserve it), because he already tried the humans twice before.


For me, both of previous two points are convincing enough to clear Mohamed's followers and the next generations after him.
If that is also convicing for you, then you might as well take into account their integrity of what they written about the history of the first generation and their Phrophet biography, which was called the "truthful and the trustfull" before the begining of the prophecy and the revelation.


Mohamed himself lied? It's easy for me enough to disbelief since I'm a native Arabic speaker, and reading through the Quran is well convicing for me that it's not the normal talk of humans.
We're challenging anyone, being honest with himself , to master the language, read in our books then read the Quran to judge that it's languagal is normal as any other from our writings.


Oh, I'm sorry for that long one, but I'm on vacation and have the time.