Warcraft 3 (I suck)

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
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I bought this game when it first came out but never really got around to playing it. I picked up the Frozen Throne expansion last week then installed them both.

I played through the first campaign without a problem. I haven't played battlenet yet, I'm just playing single player custom games.

So, is the AI programmed to be so precise and quick with its build order that you are always out-advantaged? Or do I just suck? I'm afraid to log onto bnet if I suck this bad. lmao

I'd say that I'm usually pretty good at RTS games.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
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The AI good but not awesome. If you practice a lot you will find out how mediocre it can be.
And when I say a lot I mean like 1000 hours a year. Those nutjobs you see online that execute 300 actions per minute spend a lot of time practicing. Once you get good at Bnet the single player campaign will seem like a joke. Same with Starcraft.

Watch some training videos on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=warcraft+3+training&search_type=&aq=f
One of those vids says "training for newbs".

BASIC TIPS FOR ALMOST ALL RTS's!
1. Lots of resources gathers. Build as many as you can as fast as possible. The slow ponderous resource gathering often found in campaigns will get you stomped online.

2. Make one basic fighter building ASAP. This is normally a barracks or similar structure.

3. Make another barracks! Training one warrior/soldier at a time is usually an easy recipe for failing.

4. Heroes or special units are often excellent deals for the money, and add easy power to your army.

5. Upgrades can normally wait until you have a stockpile of resources. For the money they are usually not too helpful, not as much as a unit. There are some exceptions in some games, where an upgrade is practically required for your army to be any darn good at all. Age of Mythology has a couple of these for each race. But rarely are "+1 attack" or similar upgrades a good idea. The useful ones are those that add whole new powers and abilities to your units.
But in general upgrades can wait. But when you do decide to research them its best to have multiple buildings so they can be cranked out quickly. Dawn of War is a perfect example of a game that mixes low-cost but useful upgrades with expensive and mediocre upgrades.

6. Ranged is normally better than melee unless the melee is MUCH more powerful. If you've ever played a Tower Defense game you know that excellent range will often let you attack earlier and keep attacking longer. RTS's are usually the same. A short ranged attacker has to endure punishment before he can even make his first strike. And in a messy battle the ranged folks will often get tons of free hits while everyone else staggers around.
I had a hard time learning this in Starcraft. Hydralisks are infinitely superior to zerglings. Even for the money they are a much better deal. Zerglings are OK as a distraction or speed bump while the ranged attackers do the real damage. Same for Ultralisks. They are mostly good to keep the enemy occupied but wont normally do significant damage in a battle. This principle also applies to Marines vs Firebats and Dragoons vs Zealots.
Again, if the melee character has a special ability or is just super powerful, it may negate the ranged units advantage. But those units tend to be very expensive.
In Dawn of War the melee damage for all units is normally much higher than their shoot damage, and melee-only fighters tend to be massively over powered. Giving a space marine a flamer is OK, but the short range means he will have to take plenty of hits before he uses it. Upgrading him with a heavy bolter (machine gun) is often more useful, even if the enemy eventually moves in close.

7. Special powers are often worth the micro-managing of frail or important units. The best abilities are those that stun the enemy or slow down their attack or movement. Again, that means in a large battle they probably wont be able to hit as frequently. Special powers that do straight-up damage are often not as useful over the long run, unless they can slaughter many units at one time.
Healing special powers vary game-by-game. If they work automatically and dont cost anything and can be used at a short range (versus standing right next to the unit) then they are alright.
In Supreme Commander it is often easier to make a new unit than repair an old one. Repairing usually takes a long time and normally requires active input on your part. In Age of Mythology its automatic if a unit is within range, and it also works quickly. Each race (Atlantean, Greek, Egyptian, Norse) has their own way of healing but each can be effective if used wisely. The Egyptians are the best cuz the healer is also your basic hero unit, and cheap to produce. They can travel along with the army and heal when needed. They do it automatically and have a good range too.
In Starcraft each side is very different which adds to the strategy. Terrans cant heal except in the expansion pack and only with a medic. As I recall, the medic needs active input to use her healing properly. Their building will actually burn up and explode if damaged and not repaired eventually. The zerg heal naturally, but slowly. That can be infuriating if you are able to micro-manage well. The protoss only heal their shields and that requires micro-managing. But the shield can be put up instantly with a shield regen, and its normally much more powerful than their health (which cant regen at all.)

8. In most games defensive structures are not a good use of resources. They are expensive and need micro-managing to repair. They are often just speed bumps to an enemy who wants to destroy you. Same deal with weak melee units as mentioned above. Even if they are cheap they are still a bad deal for the money. The exception to this is walls, which usually get built fast and absorb tons of damage. Having ranged units on the other side is great for pelting the enemy while they figure out what to do. If the game doesnt have walls or doesnt have good walls, often a cheap building of another sort will work. In Warcraft 2 this was farms. You only get so many population points from a given number of farms, but their relative low cost and high hit points made them into pretty darn good walls for your base. An exception to the defensive structure rule is Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander. In those games the medium and light lasers were very helpful in base defense and pestering an advancing army. The anti-air towers were FAR more useful than anti-air units, and essential in base defense, especially versus bombers intent on hitting your power supplies. The shield building were also extremely nice. Same with Act of War. Anti-tank is helpful and sometimes required. Anti-air is a must. And as cheap as they were it was often better to build a row of towers instead of a fleet of vehicles.
Also, any game that has a fortress of some sort can generally follow the rules of defensive structures. Its not really useful unless its quick & easy to put up or has massive firepower. However sometimes fortresses can also make units or special units, and then they are more valuable than a normal barracks. The fortresses in Age of Mythology are like this. Relatively cheap for their power, quick to build (with plenty of laborers on hand) and they made the best cavalry in the game.

9. Practice. The most important tip. In Starcraft and Warcraft 3 you can make custom maps. Make one that lets you ignore enemies for a while and practice your base-building technique so its as fast as possible.
 
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Maleficus

Diamond Member
May 2, 2001
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Nah the comp isn't that tough, you just need practice.

Practice, Practice, Practice, watch replays (your own and others)

<--former top 25.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
2
0
Unfortunately, like Maleficus said, this is a game where practice is necessary. Please DO NOT join a Battle.net game yet - you'll cripple your team horribly and piss everyone off. I still play TFT to this day (my favorite RTS so far), and believe me, it's hard enough to keep an already borderline-mentally handicapped team in line without dealing with someone that doesn't know the basics. That's not meant as in insult, just trying to convey the frustration.

The AI isn't very challenging for an experienced player, but it's leaps and bounds over the old Starcraft AI. The AI will actually build a somewhat decent combination of units, creep (to gain items and levels for their hero), and attack in a somewhat sensible manner - sending their entire force in at once rather than a few units at a time. With that said, the AI in a custom game can be a great way to practice.

Here's a good starting strategy which will help immensely to get a "good" game going. Remember, speed is the key; if you're spending half a minute between each of these steps trying to figure out what's going on, your enemies will have a huge resource and build time advantage over you an ultimately crush you.


  • Generally speaking, pick a single race and stay with it until you learn the basics.
  • Start by immediately sending all of your starting workers to the gold mine (and your ghoul to chop wood in the case of undead). You should be able to use the mouse to draw a marquee around them to select them all and right click the gold mine for speed's sake.
  • Immediately take one worker back out and built a farm (burrow / ziggurat / moon well). This should be built very close to your town hall / mine, but not behind the mine (for defensive reasons).
  • Queue two new workers in your town hall (or equivalent).
  • As soon as you can afford it, take another worker away from the gold mine and build an altar. Again, this should be very close by. By this point, you should have five workers mining gold in addition to any that are working on buildings.
  • Next, build a barracks, followed by another farm. In the mean time, you should be building several more workers to chop trees.
  • As soon as your altar is finished building, pick a hero and build them. Your hero choice doesn't matter much for starters, but realize that intelligence (caster) heroes generally half less health and armor and thus die easier. Some heroes, such as the Orc Blademaster, have some abilities (Windwalk) which will allow you to slip in and out of battle easily, helping you to keep them alive before you develop the reflexes to do so otherwise.
  • Continue by building more farms, possibly more workers to chop trees, an arcane vault (or equivalent), a lumber mill, and a blacksmith. In the mean time, you'll want to start pumping out some melee units to defend yourself.
  • A tower or two doesn't hurt, but don't go crazy. This isn't Starcraft where dozens of Photon Cannons could actually win a game.
  • Congratulations, you've done a decent starting build.

This, by no means, is a "good" strategy guide. It's very simplified and generalized, but it's a great way to get ahead of the AI and set yourself up for a win. Practice building in this manner and you'll be well on your way to being a decent player.

Finally, here are a few very helpful tips that you should keep in mind:
  • Heroes are extremely powerful. Some have the ability to pump out massive damage, others can stun entire armies, and still others can heal friendly units. They level up as you kill things (both enemy "players" and neutral creeps), giving them better stats and points to choose / upgrade abilities.
  • When you build a hero, immediately assign them their first skill - some skills suck, and others are awesome. A paladin's Holy Light, for example, does decent healing (massive at later levels) to a single target. On the other hand, a Death Knight's Death Pact skill is absolutely useless if you choose it before anything else. Generally speaking, any "aura" ability is great, as it will buff your entire army nearby.
  • Killing neutral creeps will yield items for your hero to pick up. Small green circles on your map indicate easy creeps, while larger orange or huge red circles indicate moderate / difficult creeps. Stick with the green creep camps in the early part of the game.
  • Try to avoid letting your hero die at all costs. When they die, your opponents receive experience on their hero, and yours is down for a while to rebuild (it costs gold as well). Run away from battles that you have no chance of winning, and use your town portal scroll (double click) if you find yourself extremely low on health and hopelessly trapped.
  • You can use CTRL + a number button (such as CTRL 1) to assign an army to that number. So, if I had a large force of footmen or knights, I can assign them to my "1" button while I assign my group of casters to my "2" button. This allows me to select them easily and issue commands without trying to manually click / drag to select units. I might want to retreat with my casters but continue attacking with my knights, for example.
  • No matter what race you are, you should have five workers on a gold mine. This is an absolute must.
  • Some races gather wood better than others. Undead Ghouls carry 2 wood at a time, thus gathering much faster. Unupgraded peasants and peons carry 10, and night elf wisps gather 5. Generally I stick 4 ghouls on wood if I'm undead, 6-8ish peasants or peons on wood if I'm human or orc, and roughly 9-12 wisps if I'm night elf.
  • Your starting gold mine will eventually run out, if you survive long enough. Your map will have a gold circles indicating the locations of other gold mines. Strong creeps generally guard them, so don't try to take these mines until you have a formidable force. One of the gold mines will be the location of your enemy opponent (in the case of 1v1, or more for more enemies)
  • When you start to get the hang of it, you'll need to practice building a decent army. A single type of unit generally won't cut it, as you have to consider what you COULD be up against - strong melee, deadly ranged, casters, anti-casters, siege, or air. To make things easy, start by building some melee units (footmen or knights later on; grunts / tauren; huntresses) and backing them up with ranged (riflemen, headhunters, archers). I actually don't suggest this with undead, as crypt fiends (ranged) can take more of a beating than ghouls and can be built exclusively and still be effective.

I hope this helps. I know it sounds like a lot of crap to remember, but it'll quickly become second nature. Just practice, practice, practice. :)
 

KeypoX

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2003
3,655
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71
I bought this game when it first came out but never really got around to playing it. I picked up the Frozen Throne expansion last week then installed them both.

I played through the first campaign without a problem. I haven't played battlenet yet, I'm just playing single player custom games.

So, is the AI programmed to be so precise and quick with its build order that you are always out-advantaged? Or do I just suck? I'm afraid to log onto bnet if I suck this bad. lmao

I'd say that I'm usually pretty good at RTS games.

you wont get better till you play online.
 

ibex333

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2005
4,094
123
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I bought this game when it first came out but never really got around to playing it. I picked up the Frozen Throne expansion last week then installed them both.

I played through the first campaign without a problem. I haven't played battlenet yet, I'm just playing single player custom games.

So, is the AI programmed to be so precise and quick with its build order that you are always out-advantaged? Or do I just suck? I'm afraid to log onto bnet if I suck this bad. lmao

I'd say that I'm usually pretty good at RTS games.


Warcraft III is really not as good as everyone says it is. The original campaign is great both gameplay and story wise. Multiplayer is flawed however because it has too much emphasis on micromanagement. Strategy games should be about STRATEGY, not who clicks on the little "ability button" faster. I also suck in WCIII and it was extremely frustrating to build huge armies just to lose them in seconds simply because my enemy clicked on his hero ability faster than I did.

IMHO, examples of good strategy games that actually give a fair chance to players regardless of their ability icon clicking speed are Company of Heroes, Dawn of War(the original one), and Command and Conquer 3.

I dont consider Warcraft and Starcraft good strategy games multiplayer wise, despite the fact that they are absolutely superb single player games. I know a bunch of people will come in and bash me for talking shit about Blizzard games which are like the "holy cow" of gaming, but I say let those people play what they are good at, and I will play what I am good at. This way we are all happy.
 

Maleficus

Diamond Member
May 2, 2001
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WC3 is flawed but not for the reasons you stated. The measure of a strategy game isn't how well you play it either.

1v1 against others online, get better, wreck shop.
 

Kalmah

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2003
3,692
1
76
Warcraft III is really not as good as everyone says it is. The original campaign is great both gameplay and story wise. Multiplayer is flawed however because it has too much emphasis on micromanagement. Strategy games should be about STRATEGY, not who clicks on the little "ability button" faster. I also suck in WCIII and it was extremely frustrating to build huge armies just to lose them in seconds simply because my enemy clicked on his hero ability faster than I did.

IMHO, examples of good strategy games that actually give a fair chance to players regardless of their ability icon clicking speed are Company of Heroes, Dawn of War(the original one), and Command and Conquer 3.

I dont consider Warcraft and Starcraft good strategy games multiplayer wise, despite the fact that they are absolutely superb single player games. I know a bunch of people will come in and bash me for talking shit about Blizzard games which are like the "holy cow" of gaming, but I say let those people play what they are good at, and I will play what I am good at. This way we are all happy.

I'm starting to agree with this. It seems that all youtube videos and player criticism is about micro management. After watching some of them I've decided that I don't care enough to memorize flinch keyboard actions to be able to play this game. that's not a test of strategy, that's a test of reflexes/reaction time.


I played several 1v1 games on bnet. won a couple, lost all of the rest. The last few games that I lost where ridiculous. We were both out of gold and units and were attacking each other's base with peons. lmao

I think I might go back to Company of Heroes.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
6. Ranged is normally better than melee unless the melee is MUCH more powerful. If you've ever played a Tower Defense game you know that excellent range will often let you attack earlier and keep attacking longer. RTS's are usually the same. A short ranged attacker has to endure punishment before he can even make his first strike. And in a messy battle the ranged folks will often get tons of free hits while everyone else staggers around.
I had a hard time learning this in Starcraft. Hydralisks are infinitely superior to zerglings. Even for the money they are a much better deal. Zerglings are OK as a distraction or speed bump while the ranged attackers do the real damage. Same for Ultralisks. They are mostly good to keep the enemy occupied but wont normally do significant damage in a battle. This principle also applies to Marines vs Firebats and Dragoons vs Zealots.
Again, if the melee character has a special ability or is just super powerful, it may negate the ranged units advantage. But those units tend to be very expensive.
In Dawn of War the melee damage for all units is normally much higher than their shoot damage, and melee-only fighters tend to be massively over powered. Giving a space marine a flamer is OK, but the short range means he will have to take plenty of hits before he uses it. Upgrading him with a heavy bolter (machine gun) is often more useful, even if the enemy eventually moves in close.

Meh...Cracklings > Hydras.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
shorty's post gave me flashbacks of how op Isis was in Age of Mythology

"how op"

What is op? Overpowering?

I'd agree. She's the one that lets you build camels, chariots, and elephants in like 2 seconds, right? And then she has upgrades for making each of them much stronger?
Overall I do best with the egyptians. They build most things for free, their pharo and priests can speed up any activity. Their priests heal, and quickly. Their stronghold units are badass. Etc. Etc.
 

inspiron

Member
Feb 6, 2010
189
1
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I am so tempted to get the command and conquer first decade at walmart! Is it any good? never played and C&C games before.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,774
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76
I am so tempted to get the command and conquer first decade at walmart! Is it any good? never played and C&C games before.

Old C&C is so old school man. You may be turned off by it's NES like graphics..lol
 

gonzaga1751

Member
Aug 16, 2005
175
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"how op"

What is op? Overpowering?

I'd agree. She's the one that lets you build camels, chariots, and elephants in like 2 seconds, right? And then she has upgrades for making each of them much stronger?
Overall I do best with the egyptians. They build most things for free, their pharo and priests can speed up any activity. Their priests heal, and quickly. Their stronghold units are badass. Etc. Etc.

Eclipse + Ancestors = gg
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
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0
I was never any good at WC3 and just gave up eventually. MP whether against the AI or another player was always a rush to kill the NPC's boars/bears whatever, powerlevel your hero(s) and then rush.

For me that's what it always came down to and I found it stupid and a real departure from the model. For me micro'ing heroes isn't what an RTS is about.