War, Men and Character - Ancient and Modern

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PJABBER

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Every year or so I get together with a couple of guys I served with in the Army. The cast of characters changes as we all have active careers and are scattered around the world. The global dispersion actually makes it interesting as we have someone willing to host almost everywhere we want to visit.

We are all former or serving infantry officers and senior NCOs, in our 40's and 50's. No Vietnam service but everyone has fought, and a few continue to fight, in every small and large conflict since. Sometimes we bring our families along, sometimes it is just us. One time we had three generations of one family of serving and retired Army show up to shoot the breeze.

The group is never more than around half a dozen and usually just three or four. It is almost always a fun event, a chance for some of us who value the insight our military experience gave us to discuss the intricacies of the past in detail and to consider the present and the future while we walk the ground where great battles were fought.

Each time we pick the site of some place of significance to American (and sometimes ancient) military history. We have met in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and the Americas over the past couple of decades.

This year we met in France at Normandy to visit Pointe du Hoc.

Did you know that The American Battle Monument Commission administers, operates, and maintains 24 permanent American burial grounds on foreign soil?

Presently there are 124,909 U.S. war dead interred at these cemeteries, 30,921 of World War I, 93,238 of World War II and 750 of the Mexican War. Additionally 6,177 American veterans and others are interred in the Mexico City and Corozal American Cemeteries. Even if you are not a military history buff, these sites are worth visiting if you are in the areas where they are located. Who knows, you might learn something.

Coincidentally, I ran across two interesting items today in scanning the news while indulging in a particularly tasty cup of Nicaraguan Maragogype. One is a profile of General David Petraeus, the other an interview with one of my favorite military historians, Victor Davis Hanson.

In the article on Petraeus, we are introduced to a man that exemplifies the modern American military ethos. In the video interview with Hanson we are reminded of the importance that war has had and continues to have on the lives we live.

The article and the interview are both long, but they are especially well done and insightful and, no matter what your politics may be, they offer illuminating perspectives of a type that are not commonly offered in this forum.

Army General David Petraeus - The Professor Of War

Victor Davis Hanson - War and History, Ancient and Modern
 
PJABBER

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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sandorski said:
April Fools?
Click to expand...

Not surprisingly, we did run across a couple of Canadians on this excursion. They were there to commemorate their relatives who died on Juno Beach.

The Canadian 3rd Division had a 50% casualty rate within the first hour of their landing at Normandy on June 6, 1944.
 
werepossum

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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Excellent stuff. Petraeus is one of my most admired people ever, and certainly one of the top three still among the living.
 
PJABBER

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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monovillage said:
A Peggy Noonan written speech i believe.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/06/the_boys_of_pointe_du_hoc_96877.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link.

I found a link to a video of that speech which Reagan gave on the 40th anniversary of D-Day on June 6, 1984 before some of the surviving Rangers.

Only 90 Army Rangers out of an original 225 were still alive after the first two days of fighting.

Lest we forget.

President Ronald Wilson Reagan - 40th Anniversary of D-Day (June 6, 1984)
 
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L

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
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You should add a poll:
1 Politics?
2 News?
3 PJABBER's Blog?
 
PJABBER

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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Today is the 65th anniversary of the invasion of Okinawa.

This calls for a special recognition of the campaign against Japan in this short thread - in many ways the Pacific war is as important to the world as the one waged in Europe and North Africa. The outcome shaped so many of the Asian nations and continues to affect all of the people of that vast and populous region.

I see that Tom Hanks has another HBO series out, this time covering the Marines fighting in the Pacific. Well, the Army made more amphibious landings than they did, but the Corps deserves a mini-series of their own. I'll look for the DVD release when it comes out.

As I referred you to Victor Davis Hanson's most interesting interview in my opening post, I will add the article Hanson wrote today about the Pacific campaign.

Semper Fi , Gyrenes.

Remembering the Pacific War

Today marks the 65th anniversary of the invasion of Okinawa.

by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online
April 1, 2010

Sixty-five years ago, on April 1, 1945, the United States Marines, Army, and Navy invaded Okinawa. The ensuing three months of combat resulted in the complete defeat and near destruction of imperial Japanese forces on the island, just 340 miles from the mainland.

The victory proved the most costly American campaign in the Pacific. Some 50,000 Americans were killed, went missing, or were wounded. The incredible carnage would help persuade the American government to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in hopes of avoiding an even more horrific invasion of the mainland.

Okinawa and the war in the Pacific are back in the news these days with the airing of a ten-part HBO series, The Pacific — a companion story to the 2001 series Band of Brothers, which was about the American advance from Normandy across the Rhine into Germany.

But recently, while hyping The Pacific’s upcoming broadcast, the actor Tom Hanks, co-producer of the fine new series, made some unfortunate — and ahistorical — remarks.

“Back in World War II,” Hanks said, “we viewed the Japanese as ‘yellow, slant-eyed dogs’ that believed in different gods. They were out to kill us because our way of living was different. We, in turn, wanted to annihilate them because they were different.”

The Pacific war was about far more than being “different.”

Indeed, before and after the war, race was not a determining factor in American and Japanese relations.

In World War I, the two nations were partners against the Germans and Austrians. And during World War II itself, we joined Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, and other Asians to stop Japanese aggression — often fueled by the country’s own particular notion of Japanese racial superiority. In the aftermath of World War II, the Americans helped rebuild Japan and once more were allied with it against the Communist Soviet Union.

And despite the deplorable internment of Japanese nationals and American citizens of Japanese descent during the war, racial difference still does not in itself account for the horror in the Pacific — or why we were there in the first place.

We entered the war, of course, because of the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, which angered Americans even more than Hitler’s aggression in Europe. More than two years of Nazi barbarity had still not provoked the United States to enter the war — none of our own territory had been attacked, much less in surprise fashion at a time of peace.

Conditions on the battlefield in the Pacific most certainly account for the horror of the war there.

For starters, Japanese militarists had updated the old samurai code of Bushido and grafted it onto a modern, industrial military dictatorship — brainwashing millions into thinking individual surrender on the battlefield was tantamount to national disgrace. Italian and even fanatical German forces might give up when surrounded, but campaigns in the Pacific ended only when the vast majority of Japanese soldiers were killed or severely wounded.

Logistics for the American force were also strained, given the vast distances across the Pacific. Tropical diseases were like nothing encountered in Europe. While most Americans had heard of Sicily, Italy, and France, most did not know what — much less where — a distant Guadalcanal, Peleliu, or Iwo Jima was.

The invasion fleet off Normandy Beach did not have to worry about airborne Nazi suicide bombers, but Kamikaze attacks off Okinawa killed thousands of American seamen.

American tactical bombing, massive artillery barrages, and armor thrusts were often less successful in the Pacific than in Europe, given the dense jungle, rough terrain, and nature of island fighting.

The result was often that combat was reduced to hand-to-hand and small-arms fighting between U.S. Marines and crack Japanese imperial troops, hardened from brutal service in China during the prior decade.

Given all these obstacles, it now seems incredible that an America that was half-armed in 1941 defeated Japan and utterly destroyed the idea of Japanese militarism in less than four years — a feat attributable in large part to the amazing courage and expertise of American soldiers.

The war in the Pacific was not about racism or due to the Japanese’s being “different,” nor even due to two nations’ having equally justifiable grievances against each other.

Instead, the brutal Pacific war was about ending an expansionary Japanese fascism that sought to destroy all democratic obstacles in its path. And we are indebted today to the relatively few Americans who once stopped it in horrific places like Okinawa — some 65 years ago this week.
Click to expand...
 
G

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
PJABBER said:
Today is the 65th anniversary of the invasion of Okinawa.

This calls for a special recognition of the campaign against Japan in this short thread - in many ways the Pacific war is as important to the world as the one waged in Europe and North Africa. The outcome shaped so many of the Asian nations and continues to affect all of the people of that vast and populous region.

I see that Tom Hanks has another HBO series out, this time covering the Marines fighting in the Pacific. Well, the Army made more amphibious landings than they did, but the Corps deserves a mini-series of their own. I'll look for the DVD release when it comes out.

As I referred you to Victor Davis Hanson's most interesting interview in my opening post, I will add the article Hanson wrote today about the Pacific campaign.

Semper Fi , Gyrenes.
Click to expand...

Yes'''''''''' let all celebrate invasion, past, present and future!
charming stuff
What about this battle?
http://www.ozatwar.com/ozatwar/bob.htm
 
G

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
It's a British poem- if I rightly remember' you guy's wanted out to create a "free country", way back before this poem was written or said-
They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them,
Lest we forget.

But your nation has profiteered well from war and death it brings, ever since.
Lest we forget!
 
G

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
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What about this "invasion" in Okinawa?
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jul2001/jap-j07.shtml
Maybe you wanna talk about iwo jima?
lost 26,000 men there ol' mate, gee that's winning!
Also it's bad karma calling a flat top- "Bismarck Sea"
and then finally with them on their knees.......you nuke their civvies!
killin' 300,000 plebs'
Gee that's fucken clever!
YOU DONT BEAT NAZI'S BECOMING ONE!
Patients is a virtue, which America lacks!
3 MONTHS COST HOW MANY LIVES ON EITHER SIDE?
All of them just mice on the tread mill!
Instant gratification.......EGO rules supreme and it don't matter shit how many low ends die!
ohh, the irony of the word "united" in the state called "USA"
You hate! the wrong things, you are a sucker!
a nub!
 
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PJABBER

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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gingermeggs said:
maybe you might play this song at the piss up you blokes have-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtqy4DTHGqg
or maybe this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ejga4kJUts
But hey turn a buck chuck! it's all good!

Nice thief of the "lest we forget" line.....other dude!
Click to expand...

Are ya drunk yet, mate?

Thanks for the link to the Black Sabbath performance, one of the greatest metal songs ever.

Did you know that metal is highly popular with American troops? Funny how a genre with an early anti-war message is appreciated so much by combat troops.

The Cranberries kind of grate on me, but isn't it grand that the Troubles in Northern Ireland are mostly over since 1998? I was there in the early 80's for a short while as an observer attached to British Army units operating in West Belfast. It wasn't a particularly pleasant time.

And I am quite fond of Kipling. He was so good that he continues to resonate today. Let me return the favor of the Black Sabbath reference with the full Kipling poem, lest we forget -

[SIZE=+1]Recessional

Rudyard Kipling
June 22, 1897

GOD of our fathers, known of old —
Lord of our far-flung battle-line —
Beneath whose awful Hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine —
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

The tumult and the shouting dies —
The captains and the kings depart —
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

Far-call'd our navies melt away —
On dune and headland sinks the fire —
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe —
Such boasting as the Gentiles use
Or lesser breeds without the Law —
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard —
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding calls not Thee to guard —
For frantic boast and foolish word,
Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!

[/SIZE]
Click to expand...
 
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R

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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76
Ldir said:
You should add a poll:
1 Politics?
2 News?
3 PJABBER's Blog?
Click to expand...

So true... As I type this 8 of the top 30 posts are by the PJBLabber and PaTrollUs and they were all posted within the past 2 days.
 
PJABBER

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Robor said:
So true... As I type this 8 of the top 30 posts are by the PJBLabber and PaTrollUs and they were all posted within the past 2 days.
Click to expand...

So many complaints about others' contributions, yet so little of substance from you!

Have you nothing to contribute to the topic? :awe:
 
datalink7

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
I have a Petraeus and he pinned my CIB on my chest. That was pretty cool :)

One of the places I will visit in my life, barring an untimely early end, is Normandy beach.
 
Ozoned

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
gingermeggs said:
What about this "invasion" in Okinawa?
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jul2001/jap-j07.shtml
Maybe you wanna talk about iwo jima?
lost 26,000 men there ol' mate, gee that's winning!
Also it's bad karma calling a flat top- "Bismarck Sea"
and then finally with them on their knees.......you nuke their civvies!
killin' 300,000 plebs'
Gee that's fucken clever!
YOU DONT BEAT NAZI'S BECOMING ONE!
Patients is a virtue, which America lacks!
3 MONTHS COST HOW MANY LIVES ON EITHER SIDE?
All of them just mice on the tread mill!
Instant gratification.......EGO rules supreme and it don't matter shit how many low ends die!
ohh, the irony of the word "united" in the state called "USA"
You hate! the wrong things, you are a sucker!
a nub!
Click to expand...
Ya hate war mate, and ya hate what man is.
 
Lemon law

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To some extent, its better to be lucky than good. But the success Petraeus had in Iraq had little to do with the GWB so called mini surge, or even put in place Petraeus policy. And more to do with previous programs. put in place at more the junior officer level, that drove a wedge between Al-Quida and Sunni insurgents. But after saying that, Petraeus, as a General is and remains light years ahead of the army Generals GWB and Rumsfeld originally put in charge of Iraqi policy.

Sadly, Petraeus is in overall command in Afghanistan also, and while there is much to say about the virtues of McChystal, that dynamic duo braintrust have failed to do doodly squat in terms of equivalent Afghanistan magic.

Sometimes we must settle for one out of two, a General can be a champ in one theater of operation, and be a clueless chump in another.

But self admittedly, I still have great respect for Petraeus as a cut above the standard world wide army mantra, of being the best at killing people and breaking things, until your organization is the last group remaining standing. Which works well in a classic war, but does not work well in a guerrilla war, because in the latter case, the object is to win the peace after the war is won.

And I conclude with two warnings. (1) Obama can't use GWB tactics in Afghanistan without getting the GWB stinking results he is now getting. (2) Iraqi stability is much broader than it is deep, only total fools dismiss the possibility that Iraq could descend into a civil war at any point in time.

We cannot place our reliance on the competence of our excellent US armed forces, because Iraq and Afghanistan are political and not military problems. And hence have to be addressed as political problems at the Presidential and international level.

And therefore, no mere general will save our ass.
 
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retrospooty

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
PJABBER said:
You post, but nothing of any substance. Why is that?
Click to expand...

I thought that was full of substance... its has a huge amount of truth tot eh implied question. You do post as if this forum is your personal blog and you cannot possibly deny that.

There is nothing wrong with posting your opinion on a blog - you should just go find a blog site to do it at. =)
 
PJABBER

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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retrospooty said:
I thought that was full of substance... its has a huge amount of truth tot eh implied question. You do post as if this forum is your personal blog and you cannot possibly deny that.

There is nothing wrong with posting your opinion on a blog - you should just go find a blog site to do it at. =)
Click to expand...

Every time someone posts a comment like this, I go to look at their most recent posts.

Guess what? INEVITABLY all of their posts are purely personal opinions! As are yours!

Amazing, a forum full of complainers and whiners who post nothing of substance - no quotes, no references, no articles, no links to information sources, no supporting commentary by recognized third party experts, no insightful analyses.

Just. Personal. Opinion. Backed up with nothing.

Why do you even bother being so boring? And on topics you know nothing of and care less about?

:awe:
 
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