War is good for the economy?

Nielsio

Member
Apr 11, 2010
27
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0
Claim:
“War is good for the economy because it provides jobs and it generates technology.”


Analysis:

§ Jobs

The purpose of an economy is providing for the satisfaction of consumers.

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This means a job is only valuable insofar it improves on the value of resources, as judged by consumers.


Given that the jobs created do not produce consumer goods, or producer goods that are used for consumer goods, those jobs do not benefit the economy. In order to provide the jobs involved in a war-effort, resources and man-power are taken away from the economy; making the economy worse off with less goods to offer and higher prices.

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The people who lose their life in a war are not just temporarily but permanently taken away from the economy.

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The resources that are lost in a war are not just those taken away to engage in a war-effort, but also resources are destroyed in the conflict itself; not just the tools produced for the war-effort and the people who are hurt or killed, but also property of people not involved in the war-effort and the health and lives of people who are not mobilized.

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Under a situation of total war where all people are mobilized there would be no private sector, and all things consumed to live would be those things created under the command structure. People would almost all eat the same things and have the same low standards of living. This 'economy' would pale compared to what it was beforehand.

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Even though war cannot improve the economy as a whole, it can improve the wealth of some at the expense of others. If you produce tools for war then you could stand to gain from the resources that are channeled from other parts of the economy to your venture.

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§ Technology

Even though technology can be generated in a war-effort, technology is also generated in a consumer-oriented economy. In order to make a profit and sustain their operations, producers develop goods and services that others wish to trade for. The challenge is to improve on resources in such a way that consumers are willing to give up more money than was incurred in costs. In order to do this, producers develop technological skills and knowledge. At the same time profit-areas attract competitors who try to do the same thing but better.

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And then there is the general competition where all consumer goods compete with all other consumer goods for buyers, which forces everyone to stay on top of their game.


What producers do in order to secure profits in the future is commit resources to short-term and long-term investments; depending on the amount of profit and risk they perceive from them.

Sometimes they commit resources in cooperation with other producers for a shared gain.

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If producers make bad estimations and don't invest and produce efficiently and intelligently, they stand to lose all their profits and their capital.


In order to understand the true effect that resources and man-power involved in a war-effort constitutes, we must consider what those things could have generated were they not shifted away. In a peaceful economy, research and development is carefully aligned with current and future consumer desires, and the capital is distributed according to those who use it the smartest and most responsibly. We must expect a better economic result from that situation.


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§ Finally

The prior mentioned effects occur at both sides of a battle. What then also must be considered is the lost positive effect that trading under the division of labor between the groups could have had on choices, prices and technology in their economies.

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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
The jet builders and rocket scientists came form Germany, etc. Even after the war was over NASA was using their technology to put the first Man on the Moon.

It was a Jew working for Germany that developed a method to convert coal to fuel for vehicles and planes. He also developed a method fo make fertilizer that was cost effective.

Maybe look for a book called "Alchemy of the Air".
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Fail. Total fail. Unless you are taking shit over ala romans or putting economic competitors out of business ala WW2. It's hilarious what passes for logic these days.

Please learn what a balance sheet is and learn to work one.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
As long as the only soldiers who die are illegal immigrants and the unemployed, it's win win.
 

Docnasty

Member
Jan 25, 2009
105
0
0
When you tax an individual and take their income and spend it on a bomb and then destroy that bomb, you are destroying wealth. Same goes for other goods, bullets, tanks, planes, etc. You cannot be for free market economics and be for a war economy, the two are not compatible and are opposites of each other.
 

Herr Kutz

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,545
242
106
Nielsio, your "posting style" is remarkably familiar for some reason. Do you go by "usmc_family" on another forum?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Well if you are dropping the bombs it may be good for you. However, if the bombs are falling in your Neighborhood it cant be too good. It also helps to reduce the numbers of young men in populations that are overcrowded. Dont really know if that is good for the people that are killed or maimed.

When you sell bombs some company is paid to make the bomb, raw materials are sold to make the bomb, someone buys the bomb. The bomb kills the enemy, so in relative terms bombs have worth. Someone also gets paid to transport the bombs. Then someone gets paid to make more bomb delivery systems. Of course someone else gets paid to drop the bomb. Then someone also gets paid to house and feed these people. Of course you also have to warehouse your bombs.

After the war in Iraq with all the IED's it may be safer to deliver goods by air with cargo hellicopters. Trucks are getting too easy to blow up.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I don't think we can dismiss the war is good for the economy argument lightly, but its situational and almost totally untrue in the USA for the past 60 years.

Most of the technology improvement in the past 60 years came from NASA type innovation, without the necessity of mass killing as a biproduct. Another thing to point out and almost without exception, the end of any war is followed by a recession as the economy retools to peace time uses. Nor is accounting for war costs ever easy, there are direct costs, but many of the indirect costs like caring for the wounded, disabled for life often exceeds direct costs.

Perhaps to American civil war is the only war that really produced beneficial American innovation on a huge scale, but thereafter, America took the peacetime divident as it applied the building of America. The point being, before the US fought the civil war, the USA was a technological backwater, by 1865 it was one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. If we do not count the Spanish American war, the peacetime benefit lasted for nearly 50 years and until the outbreak of WW1.

Correspondingly, we could argue WW2 lifted America out of the great depression, but two no longer present benfits mostly account for the WW2 benefits. (1) Long before the USA entered WW2, the USA was selling arms to other countries. (2) The USA escapted basically undamaged from WW2, and while the rest of Europe was busy rebuilding is bombed out infrastructure, they were buying consumer goods from the USA.

So I submit the answer to the is war beneficial now to the USA is totally false in the past 60 years.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
It always amazes me that people think a good economy just means everyone has a job and money. No wonder we're in so much trouble.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
World War II was very good for the US economy long term because it moved us from a largely agrarian society to a largely industrial society, which is an order of magnitude higher in wealth. As Lemon Law stated, the USA had not been bombed to within an inch of its life like almost all of Europe, nor overrun with refugees, so the advantage was greatly magnified. Had Europe not been lying in ruins the USA would have no doubt entered yet a second Great Depression as we attempted to digest all those manufacturing jobs and shift them to consumer products for which there was no existing domestic demand.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
It always amazes me that people think a good economy just means everyone has a job and money. No wonder we're in so much trouble.

And it always amazes me that Righties define a good economy as rising GDP, regardless of how it's distributed... or what it consists of, like selling houses to each other...
 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
1
0
And it always amazes me that Righties define a good economy as rising GDP, regardless of how it's distributed... or what it consists of, like selling houses to each other...
Selling goods that were manufactured previously is not part of GDP. Nice try, though.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
And it always amazes me that Righties define a good economy as rising GDP, regardless of how it's distributed... or what it consists of, like selling houses to each other...

You haven't heard that from me.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Selling goods that were manufactured previously is not part of GDP. Nice try, though.

Heh. Nice try at denial.

http://investingthemes.blogspot.com/2006/09/housing-booms-full-impact-on-gdp.html

Apparently, new housing construction accounting for 1/6 of GDP increase during the boom had nothing to do with it, right?

If I cash in on increased valuation, refi the house to buy a new pick-em-up, or furniture, or a vacation, or to send the kids to college, to remodel, or pay off debt so I can run up more, what part of housing boom does that have nothing to do with?

I'm sure that the nice livings made by real estate guys, mortgage brokers, and flippers had no effect on GDP, either... nor did the enormous bonuses Wall St paid itself, either...

If it wasn't the housing boom, what was it? Sasquatch, or the tooth fairy?
 

ConstipatedVigilante

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2006
7,670
1
0
Heh. Nice try at denial.

http://investingthemes.blogspot.com/2006/09/housing-booms-full-impact-on-gdp.html

Apparently, new housing construction accounting for 1/6 of GDP increase during the boom had nothing to do with it, right?

If I cash in on increased valuation, refi the house to buy a new pick-em-up, or furniture, or a vacation, or to send the kids to college, to remodel, or pay off debt so I can run up more, what part of housing boom does that have nothing to do with?

I'm sure that the nice livings made by real estate guys, mortgage brokers, and flippers had no effect on GDP, either... nor did the enormous bonuses Wall St paid itself, either...

If it wasn't the housing boom, what was it? Sasquatch, or the tooth fairy?
Are you saying that it's bad that real estate brokers and mortgage brokers made money, and that it's all the Republicans' fault?

You don't seem to understand the concept of GDP. It is the VALUE OF GOODS PRODUCED. Just because someone makes a profit off of trading stocks, it doesn't mean that it is part of GDP.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Components_of_GDP_by_expenditure