War in Iraq . . .

[RichPLS]

the ill conceived war in Iraq has caused more loss of life and economic damage than the perpetrators caused in 9/11.
Their act should have never been seen as an act of war but rather an horrific criminal offense.

Invading Iraq really pointed out the weaknesses of our democracy.

A news media willing to jump on the popular bandwagon while not printing very much of the anti-war sentiments.

A Congress unwilling to ask hard questions (with an exception of a few).

An administration undeniably the best administration ever in using "public relations" techniques to fuel the population to want the Administration?s war.

They were so good at it that they had a majority of the population believing that Iraq was responsible for 911 and from responses on this board many still do believe Iraq was responsible.


Sometimes it seems as though a lot of people believe our actions in Iraq, the economy, name what you please are the results of the command and thought of one man, Typically George Bush, or possibly Rove or Cheney, or maybe a small handfull of men. do you think this is so, or in reality are not the war, the economic direction etc. Done with the consent of congress, senate, many, possibly thousands of behind the scenes political leaders, big business, other national govt. etc. Seems that we often give too much credit or too much blame for single men. Tolstoy in War and Peace touches on this in relation to Napoleon.

 

[CaptnKirk]

The 'War Against Iraq' was brought on by a Lynch Mob Mentality, looking for a quick way to place the blame that would garner the biggest bunch of revenge seekers fast.

The 'Get Even - Revenge Factor' was pushed along by the 'Cowboy Gunslinger Mentality' of Bush and his core loyalists, even to the extent as painting any dissention, questioning of loyalty, or second thoughts as being ' Terrorist Sympathyzers' in their rush to fix the blame and not the problem. Chrisis Managment does not work as a form of Government.

Everyone pushed everyone else into opening the throttle wide open so the Train Wreck would at top speed when it came.

The Republicans were given a chance to steer this country, and in their rush to make themselves the modern day Neros and Gods, they ran it off the tracks.

 

[heartsurgeon]

Their act should have never been seen as an act of war but rather an horrific criminal offense.

hmmm...so you would have sent the FBI to Afganistan instaed of the military?

 

The worst thing the War in Iraq has done is turn terrorists into "freedom fighters" in the minds of liberal Americans. Some of those opposed to the war are turning into fundamentalist Muslim sympathizers. We should have never went to Iraq and instead spent all the money defending our homeland against what is now the worst threat to civilized humanity to date.

 

[RichPLS]

Well, we never finished Afganistan to begin with, and Bin Laden is still at large. Where is the progress? We have more Herion now more than ever coming from Afgan.

Iraq on the other hand was and is a disaster.

I believe at this point they are more likely acting like you or I would if a foreign nation invaded and overthrew our government, took our leader, and then with an iron fist told us what type of government to have and how it is gonna be.

The do not want us there, sure they are thankful Saddam is gone, but now they want us out.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: RichPLS
Well, we never finished Afganistan to begin with, and Bin Laden is still at large. Where is the progress? We have more Herion now more than ever coming from Afgan.

Iraq on the other hand was and is a disaster.

I believe at this point they are more likely acting like you or I would if a foreign nation invaded and overthrew our government, took our leader, and then with an iron fist told us what type of government to have and how it is gonna be.

The do not want us there, sure they are thankful Saddam is gone, but now they want us out.

:thumbsup:

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: dwell
The worst thing the War in Iraq has done is turn terrorists into "freedom fighters" in the minds of liberal Americans. Some of those opposed to the war are turning into fundamentalist Muslim sympathizers. We should have never went to Iraq and instead spent all the money defending our homeland against what is now the worst threat to civilized humanity to date.

Worst pile of crap for several days.

They are freedomfighters, you invaded their country and bombed their kids now they're trying to get you the hell out.
That doesn't mean that i condone what they do, that doesn't mean i look with kinder eyes upon muslim fundementalists than upon christian fundamentalists or american patriots (who generally are christian fundamentalists).
All it means is that you reap what you saw.
What i'm trying to do here is find the lesser of two evils. (Or the smarter of two stupids)

 

Originally posted by: RichPLS
I believe at this point they are more likely acting like you or I would if a foreign nation invaded and overthrew our government, took our leader, and then with an iron fist told us what type of government to have and how it is gonna be.

That's true to a certain degree, but then again most of the "insurgents" are coming from all over the Middle East to fight. They see us as Crusaders trying to spread Democracy over the Middle East (which we are, right or wrong).

Still, these people would do the same thing to use (turn the US into an Islamic state) if they had the resources.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dwell
The worst thing the War in Iraq has done is turn terrorists into "freedom fighters" in the minds of liberal Americans. Some of those opposed to the war are turning into fundamentalist Muslim sympathizers. We should have never went to Iraq and instead spent all the money defending our homeland against what is now the worst threat to civilized humanity to date.

You reall think that all of those so called "terrorists" were in Iraq before we invaded?

We should have kept our noses out of there. We have stirred the hornets nest to the point of outrage and it's building more and more the longer we stay there.

 

Originally posted by: Engineer
We should have kept our noses out of there. We have stirred the hornets nest to the point of outrage and it's building more and more the longer we stay there.

I agree. We wasted too many lives and too much money on it. I don't support Iraq.

Still, not a damn thing has changed. Before Iraq, Islamic nutcases wanted to see our way of life snuffed out. Iraq or not, they are going to keep trying to end America.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

Their act should have never been seen as an act of war but rather an horrific criminal offense.

hmmm...so you would have sent the FBI to Afganistan instaed of the military?

Where in the hell have you been ? We had both FBI and CIA operatives engaged in Afganistan for the months leading up to the attack on Afganistan, the Taliban, and their supporters, matter of fact - we had been bankrolling the Taliban through the FBI & CIA for their co-operation with US Drug policy, through their destruction of the Buddist Statues, the destruction of the past cultural treasures of that country, right up to the moment that the planes started plowing into buildings in New York and Washington DC.

You have some adversion to history and fact ?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dwell

Originally posted by: Engineer
We should have kept our noses out of there. We have stirred the hornets nest to the point of outrage and it's building more and more the longer we stay there.

I agree. We wasted too many lives and too much money on it. I don't support Iraq.

Still, not a damn thing has changed. Before Iraq, Islamic nutcases wanted to see our way of life snuffed out. Iraq or not, they are going to keep trying to end America.

Do they want our "Way of life" snuffed out or "Or way of sticking our noses in their life" snuffed out? (or both?)

 

Originally posted by: Engineer
Do they want our "Way of life" snuffed out or "Or way of sticking our noses in their life" snuffed out? (or both?)

No. They want to turn America (and the rest of the world) into an Islamic state. Moderate Muslims and below would side with the "sticking noses in their life" side of things, but there's far too many fundamentalist and extremist Muslims out there who follow the more radical route.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: dwell

Originally posted by: Engineer
Do they want our "Way of life" snuffed out or "Or way of sticking our noses in their life" snuffed out? (or both?)

No. They want to turn America (and the rest of the world) into an Islamic state. Moderate Muslims and below would side with the "sticking noses in their life" side of things, but there's far too many fundamentalist and extremist Muslims out there who follow the more radical route.

And how many of those radical's have we created by sticking our noses into their life? Sure, some hate us out of spite. Some Christians hate muslims out of spite and want to do the same. While I agree that there are some that want to remove us just bacause they want everyone to be muslum, I do think that we reap what we sow and we have created many (especially lately) of the radicals that we are currently "so called" fighting.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: dwell
The worst thing the War in Iraq has done is turn terrorists into "freedom fighters" in the minds of liberal Americans. Some of those opposed to the war are turning into fundamentalist Muslim sympathizers.

You sure you don't have that backwards? Seems to me Bush's invasion of Iraq has turned freedom fighters into terrorists in the minds of the Bush faithful. This has only gotten worse as real terrorists infiltrate Iraq, taking advantage of the power and control vacuum we created

We should have never went to Iraq and instead spent all the money defending our homeland against what is now the worst threat to civilized humanity to date.

Agreed we should have never attacked Iraq. It was a diversion from the legitimate "war" on terrorists and a shameful abdication of America's core principles.

 

Originally posted by: Engineer
And how many of those radical's have we created by sticking our noses into their life? Sure, some hate us out of spite. Some Christians hate muslims out of spite and want to do the same. While I agree that there are some that want to remove us just bacause they want everyone to be muslum, I do think that we reap what we sow and we have created many (especially lately) of the radicals that we are currently "so called" fighting.

Can't say. But the core thinking has been there for 1500 years. It only takes a handful to cause the next 9/11 or worse. Nothing much has changed since Iraq, other than people becoming more aware of what's going on in the Middle East. Some are overly sympathetic (liberals), some are overly cautious (me).

Don't compare Christians to Muslims until you compare the New Testament to the Qur'an.

 

[KGB]

To the OP (Rich),

Get some perspective.
Google search for PNAC and read as much as you can stand.

Download and watch this for some more perspective.

 

[AndrewR]

Not sure why I bother, but some of the BS here is amazing. To wit:

Well, we never finished Afganistan to begin with, and Bin Laden is still at large. Where is the progress? We have more Herion now more than ever coming from Afgan.

Notice that we're STILL in Afghanistan? Whoever said we were complete? Bin Laden might still be at large, but if you think there hasn' t been any progress, you are completely deluded. Khalid Sheik Mohammed ring a bell? How about Hambali? Maybe Qaed Salim Sinan al-Harethi? If you'd deign to look at a pre-9/11 list of AQ's leadership, you'd notice that a majority are either dead or captured, except for UBL. You might also take mental note of the fact that the Taliban is no longer running Afghanistan and that AQ no longer has a safe haven there to operate freely. That's assuming that facts matter to you though.

I believe at this point they are more likely acting like you or I would if a foreign nation invaded and overthrew our government, took our leader, and then with an iron fist told us what type of government to have and how it is gonna be.

Allow me to clarify what you ignorantly said by limiting your description to the Sunni Arabs. The Shia are pretty happy overall, since they were subject to random slaughtering under the former regime. The Kurds are pretty peachy about all this as well for similar reasons. It's the Sunnis who have had their little reign of terror ended who are now conducting a similar reign of terror in a last ditch effort to avoid paying for the sins of the past. Oh, and even those people aren't a majority of the Sunnis, but don't mind the facts coming out of Iraq -- just keep reading the slanted stories of your favorite liberal rag.

The do not want us there, sure they are thankful Saddam is gone, but now they want us out.

Ah, yes, leave before a stable government is in place. Then when it goes to sh!t and devolves into complete chaos, you liberal wonks will be first in line to rail against the fact that we left "too early". The path to victory!

They are freedomfighters...

Just like Uday and Qusay, huh? :roll:

You reall think that all of those so called "terrorists" were in Iraq before we invaded?

And you would rather we fight those terrorists on US soil with police forces as opposed to fighting them in Iraq with the military?

While I agree that there are some that want to remove us just bacause they want everyone to be muslum, I do think that we reap what we sow and we have created many (especially lately) of the radicals that we are currently "so called" fighting.

Well, aren't you just being so gracious and admitting the existence of AQ (and EIJ and JI and GSPC and GICM and ASG and...)

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
The 'War Against Iraq' was brought on by a Lynch Mob Mentality, looking for a quick way to place the blame that would garner the biggest bunch of revenge seekers fast.

The 'Get Even - Revenge Factor' was pushed along by the 'Cowboy Gunslinger Mentality' of Bush and his core loyalists, even to the extent as painting any dissention, questioning of loyalty, or second thoughts as being ' Terrorist Sympathyzers' in their rush to fix the blame and not the problem. Chrisis Managment does not work as a form of Government.

Everyone pushed everyone else into opening the throttle wide open so the Train Wreck would at top speed when it came.

The Republicans were given a chance to steer this country, and in their rush to make themselves the modern day Neros and Gods, they ran it off the tracks.

That is why we waited 18 months to invade?
That is a knee jerk response if I have ever seen it :disgust:

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: RichPLS
Well, we never finished Afganistan to begin with, and Bin Laden is still at large. Where is the progress? We have more Herion now more than ever coming from Afgan.

Iraq on the other hand was and is a disaster.

I believe at this point they are more likely acting like you or I would if a foreign nation invaded and overthrew our government, took our leader, and then with an iron fist told us what type of government to have and how it is gonna be.

The do not want us there, sure they are thankful Saddam is gone, but now they want us out.

The stomach of America is terribly weak and our attention span is low too boot as evidenced in this post.

You want a disaster? How about 1800 troops drown in a single accident in the English channel during a training manuever. I bet you would be front and center yapping about how it is a European war.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: dwell
The worst thing the War in Iraq has done is turn terrorists into "freedom fighters" in the minds of liberal Americans. Some of those opposed to the war are turning into fundamentalist Muslim sympathizers. We should have never went to Iraq and instead spent all the money defending our homeland against what is now the worst threat to civilized humanity to date.

Worst pile of crap for several days.

They are freedomfighters, you invaded their country and bombed their kids now they're trying to get you the hell out.
That doesn't mean that i condone what they do, that doesn't mean i look with kinder eyes upon muslim fundementalists than upon christian fundamentalists or american patriots (who generally are christian fundamentalists).
All it means is that you reap what you saw.
What i'm trying to do here is find the lesser of two evils. (Or the smarter of two stupids)

Since when are freedom fighters from a foreign country?

If they are freedom fighters you apologist what is their long term goals? What platform are they fighting for? Do they have a political wing?

 

[imported_Condor]

And would have been treated as such by Democratic leadership while thousands more died as the other cells in the US did their work - unobstrucked! That would be why we re-elected Republicans.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: RichPLS
Well, we never finished Afganistan to begin with, and Bin Laden is still at large. Where is the progress? We have more Herion now more than ever coming from Afgan.

Iraq on the other hand was and is a disaster.

I believe at this point they are more likely acting like you or I would if a foreign nation invaded and overthrew our government, took our leader, and then with an iron fist told us what type of government to have and how it is gonna be.

The do not want us there, sure they are thankful Saddam is gone, but now they want us out.

The stomach of America is terribly weak and our attention span is low too boot as evidenced in this post.

You want a disaster? How about 1800 troops drown in a single accident in the English channel during a training manuever. I bet you would be front and center yapping about how it is a European war.

False Analogy The events of Sept 11th and our invasion of Iraq weren't accidents.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: dwell
The worst thing the War in Iraq has done is turn terrorists into "freedom fighters" in the minds of liberal Americans. Some of those opposed to the war are turning into fundamentalist Muslim sympathizers. We should have never went to Iraq and instead spent all the money defending our homeland against what is now the worst threat to civilized humanity to date.

Worst pile of crap for several days.

They are freedomfighters, you invaded their country and bombed their kids now they're trying to get you the hell out.
That doesn't mean that i condone what they do, that doesn't mean i look with kinder eyes upon muslim fundementalists than upon christian fundamentalists or american patriots (who generally are christian fundamentalists).
All it means is that you reap what you saw.
What i'm trying to do here is find the lesser of two evils. (Or the smarter of two stupids)

Since when are freedom fighters from a foreign country?

If they are freedom fighters you apologist what is their long term goals? What platform are they fighting for? Do they have a political wing?

Explain to me how it's revalent where "freedom fighters" come from?

What platfrom are they fighting for? Do they have a political wing? - Does it even matter? They want us out of their country, is it so hard to understand?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: dwell

Originally posted by: Engineer
Do they want our "Way of life" snuffed out or "Or way of sticking our noses in their life" snuffed out? (or both?)

No. They want to turn America (and the rest of the world) into an Islamic state. Moderate Muslims and below would side with the "sticking noses in their life" side of things, but there's far too many fundamentalist and extremist Muslims out there who follow the more radical route.

Radical Fundies on both sides want to see each other country as a Muslim or a Christian state.

While I do not condone the actions of Bin Laden or terrorists, their greivances were CLEARLY that they don't want us sticking our noses in their situations and fvcking it up. He clearly said that at one point he looked at the USA as an inspiration for their countries. I want to see where all these funides are screaming for the "conversion of America"- Bin Laden never stated that (or if he did please refresh me with transcripts). Most of this "Fundies want to make everyone Muslim stems from fear with people throwing up a storm when they hear that FIVE percent of France is Muslim, or somethinglike like 1-3% of Europe is Muslim..
That is absolutely ridiculous~ although I could easily link to Falwell speeches beseeching people to go and convert as many Iraqis to Christianity as possible.

Originally posted by: dwell

Originally posted by: Engineer
And how many of those radical's have we created by sticking our noses into their life? Sure, some hate us out of spite. Some Christians hate muslims out of spite and want to do the same. While I agree that there are some that want to remove us just bacause they want everyone to be muslum, I do think that we reap what we sow and we have created many (especially lately) of the radicals that we are currently "so called" fighting.

Can't say. But the core thinking has been there for 1500 years. It only takes a handful to cause the next 9/11 or worse. Nothing much has changed since Iraq, other than people becoming more aware of what's going on in the Middle East. Some are overly sympathetic (liberals), some are overly cautious (me).

Don't compare Christians to Muslims until you compare the New Testament to the Qur'an.

Really Now? Would you like to? I wish to challange what you say then, as I would argue it is a totally different story, but you only PERCEIVE this to be true when the real situation is anything but.
I feel if you are "cautious", then you are cautious because you have the wrong background. If you feel free to discuss this in PM I'm fine, but I have a feeling you have the wrong perceptional foundation which would lead to other problems

You reall think that all of those so called "terrorists" were in Iraq before we invaded?

And you would rather we fight those terrorists on US soil with police forces as opposed to fighting them in Iraq with the military?

Do you see that as "fair" AndrewR? Why should Iraq, a country that never had problems with terrorism become the "battleground" for it. We talk about :"taking the battle to them" yet we routinely forget that Iraq itself never had these problems. We might as well has tossed the terrorists into Hungary and argue the same thing! We assume that these terrorists are crazy state supported people with defined boundries where we can "bring the fight to them"...we forget that in reality we are ruining the lives of milllions of people by bringing a conflict to them in which they are not a part of.
Even if we wanted to follow that line of thinking...you'd atleast assume that we'd bring the "fight" to Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 highjackers were from