War in Afghanistan is officially lost. Pakistan has 'no plans' to fight

[Dari]

I under their calculations. The US has never had a sustained fight in Afghanistan. Everytime a new general takes over, a new strategy is announced. Not surprisingly, Pakistan is doubtful of American resolve. So, why should they risk their lives fighting their one-time allies. Chalk this up as another Vietnam, folks, this war is over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8471789.stm

Pakistan snubs US over militants
Pakistan's army has said it will launch no new offensives on militants in 2010, as the US defence secretary arrived for talks on combating Taliban fighters.

Army spokesman Athar Abbas told the BBC the "overstretched" military had no plans for any fresh anti-militant operations over the next 12 months.

Our correspondent says the comments are a clear snub to Washington.

The US would like Pakistan to expand an offensive against militants launching cross-border attacks in Afghanistan.

Defence Secretary Robert Gates arrived in Pakistan on Thursday for his first visit since US President Barack Obama took office last year.

'Embarrassing'

The one-day trip comes at a crucial time in the fight against al-Qaeda and the Taliban, with the US planning to commit 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan.

Mr Gates was expected to tell Pakistan that it could do more against top Taliban leaders operating in its territory, some of whom are alleged to have close links to Pakistan's ISI intelligence service.

The Pakistani army launched major ground offensives in 2009 in the north-west against Pakistani Taliban strongholds in the Swat region, last April, and in South Waziristan, last October.

The militants have hit back with a wave of suicide bombings and attacks that have killed hundreds of people across Pakistan.

In the capital, Islamabad, on Thursday, Maj Gen Abbas, head of public relations for the Pakistan army, told the BBC: "We are not going to conduct any major new operations against the militants over the next 12 months.

"The Pakistan army is overstretched and it is not in a position to open any new fronts. Obviously, we will continue our present operations in Waziristan and Swat."

'Trust deficit'

The BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan in Islamabad says the comments are a clear brush-off to top US officials.

Our correspondent adds they are embarrassing for Pakistan's shaky coalition government, and likely to further destabilise already-low ties with its US ally.


He says it also threatens to render ineffective an expanded coalition troop deployment in Afghanistan, as the Taliban over the border would be relieved of any pressure from the Pakistan army.

Before arriving in Islamabad, Mr Gates told reporters travelling with him from India: "You can't ignore one part of this cancer and pretend that it won't have some impact closer to home."

His visit comes amidst a slight cooling in relations between the two allies. In an article published in a Pakistani newspaper on Thursday, Mr Gates referred to a "trust deficit".

As well as talking with his counterpart, Ahmed Mukhtar, the US defence secretary is expected to meet Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and President Asif Zardari.

Talks were also expected to focus on US drone strikes against militants near the Afghan border.

Hundreds of people have died in the attacks, which have stoked deep resentment of the US among many Pakistanis.

But our correspondent says Mr Gates will argue that drone strikes are the only effective measure against the Taliban.

Pakistan has been an important US partner in South Asia since the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US.

 

[dguy6789]

Sounds like Pakistan has succumbed to the bullying of the militants and fears their retaliation.

 

[yllus]

Good ol' Pakistani Army, never learns a damn thing.

Those militants won't confine themselves to attacking NATO troops in Afghanistan forever - they'll turn their eyes inwards to Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad yet once more given time to regroup.

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[StageLeft]

Third time's a charm. Next country to invade Afghanistan might actually not screw it up.

 

[Dari]

It's easy to get mad at the Pakistanis but, from their point of view, they had a good thing going on with the Taliban before America arrived. These terrorists could be used against India if the need arrived and Pakistan got to control its own country, Afghanistan, via the Taliban. Also, Afghanistan has always been a low priority for America. Even Obama, who campaigned on increasing the fight there, has suddenly gotten cold feet and has a timeline for withdrawal. That is no way to show your committment to a war...by talking about a date when you're leaving. Not surprisingly, everybody was listening and they got their cues from Obama that he has no interest in winning the war there at any cost.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Sounds like Pakistan has succumbed to the bullying of the militants and fears their retaliation.

Nope.

Tens of thousands in the FATA and Swat province have taken up arms against the Taliban.

While the fight in South Waziristan is critical, the Pakistan Army cannot abandon their fight in Khyber regardless of the claims in the OPs article.

And though the Pakistan Army could possibly provide support in North Waziristan and Bajaur, the local tribesmen are more than capable of organizing against the Taliban in their individual areas.

It is the resolve and the will of the local tribesmen that must be built upon to succeed against the Taliban.




--

 

[Lemon law]

Personally, I don't think Pakistan is fighting over much, what is happening in Pakistan is more of a USA orchestrated pissing contest. And if Nato were not pulling the strings, much of this would have never happened.

Because in reality there have been two totally separate Pakistani entities, the larger part of a fully modern secular State that embraces Western values and a totally primitive tribal part that more resembles Afghanistan. The point being, Taliban values and ideas can make no in roads in modern Pakistan, in the tribal regions the rest of Pakistan does not care much for, Taliban type ideals are the way they have been governed for centuries.

So in the tribal regions of Pakistan we now get a war that is right out of Gullivers travels. Do we open the egg at the big government end, or do we open the egg at the Taliban small end? We can't really tell the governmental style of either side apart right now in the tribal regions, but hurry up and choose sides, Uncle Sammy hates the side that has T's on their hats. Want to stay neutral, that does not work either, if Taliban tyranny does not get you, hugely destructive acts of Pakistani army violence will, and if you are lucky enough to survive both, there are drone aircraft flying about that can get you and some stray bad guy at the same time.

Somewhat the point being, if Nato was not around destabilizing everything, the problems would be solved in a less violent war of ideas manner, but with such a foreign force such an artificial fight can take many generations of violence.

The way to beat the Taliban is quite easy and clear, modern Western values and civilization with roads, schools, jobs, and economic development is simply incompatible with Taliban values and that does not happen overnight. The problem is that modernization process is not even started in the tribal areas of Pakistan, and given the primitive conditions, the Taliban type ideas fit like a glove. Meanwhile the Pakistan sponsored government official can't be told from the Taliban government official in style or substance in the tribal regions. But one has an invisible T on his hat and the other does not, so like the Hatfields and McCoys, they shoot at each other on sight, and preferably from ambush. And for the larger cause of which end to open the egg on, any act of mass violence becomes the socially acceptable norm.

 

[Genx87]

Pakistan has 'no plans' to fight

Could have told you this 5 years ago.

 

[Lemon law]

Given the quote, "Pakistan has 'no plans' to fight."

[QUOTE=Genx87 comes back with "Could have told you this 5 years ago"

But I don't know what rock Genx87 has been hiding under, but Pakistan has spent the bulk of the last full year actively fighting the Taliban in the Tribal regions of Pakistan. Very actively engaged in bombing and pounding Taliban strongholds, using air power and artillery on the ground. Exactly what Nato had been asking for all along for many years.

Not only has it been somewhat ineffectual, its made the problems far worse in the Tribal regions, its created huge humanitarian problems as many refugees have been created, its failed to help Nato in Afghanistan, and now the central Pakistani government is simply saying its not been worth it because it has not helped. Simply because its just created more instability when stability is needed.

And somewhat like Vietnam, a poorly thought out war not only screws up one country, its destabilizes a whole group in countries in the region.

 

[Sclamoz]

LAHORE: President Asif Ali Zardari has said that Europe-like Marshall Plan should be introduced in Pakistan.

Speaking at a reception given in his honour at Governor House here on Sunday he said: “The West is not yet accepting our demands regarding Marshall Plan, but ultimately it will have to agree on this,” he said.

http://www.geo.tv/1-17-2010/57197.htm

I think they are just holding us ransom again and our incompetent government will throw them a few extra billion to get them to do nothing.

 

[yllus]

I think they are just holding us ransom again and our incompetent government will throw them a few extra billion to get them to do nothing.

Obama will throw them a bone, but he's been quite the hardliner on Pakistan since day one. I don't think they'll get much more than what's needed to keep their army well enough fed so the nukes don't wander into the wrong hands. (Would never happen anyways, but nobody takes chances with these things.)

 

[tvarad]

LAHORE: President Asif Ali Zardari has said that Europe-like Marshall Plan should be introduced in Pakistan.

Speaking at a reception given in his honour at Governor House here on Sunday he said: “The West is not yet accepting our demands regarding Marshall Plan, but ultimately it will have to agree on this,” he said.

http://www.geo.tv/1-17-2010/57197.htm

I think they are just holding us ransom again and our incompetent government will throw them a few extra billion to get them to do nothing.

The elitist jerks of the ruling class, be it political or military, have basically run Pakistan into the ground. They don't give a s**t that their a*s is being eaten alive by the Taliban as long as they can keep wagging their member at India to prove that they can compete militarily. The U.S. should agree to a martial plan when these guys agree to dismantle the army, just like Germany, Japan and other axis countries did after WWII.

 

[Lemon law]

At least tvarad put his finger on the other problem in Pakistan, religious tensions
between two great religions, namely Muslim and Hindu. And despite the fact that Pakistan is a very large country, the fact is that India is so much much bigger.

But where Tvarad is wrong IMHO is in pretending Pakistan is the sole problem. And even if we could somehow magically transport Pakistan somewhere else, and replace the space Pakistan now occupies with Ocean, India would still be left with the same religious tensions it has now, and likely they would become worse.

With the Kashmir region problems an open source of tensions between India and Pakistan with any settlement being always kicked down the road, and with both countries nuclear armed, its somewhat understandable that its Pakistan that is the most paranoid. Even if its religiously far more homogeneous than India. And now that the Taliban has learned it can take Pakistani army pressure off itself by stirring up bombing in India, it just contributes to regional instability. In short, Nato has one set of objectives while India and Pakistan have a totally different set. And given the US track record of cut and run, neither side trusts the Western sponsors of Nato to keep their commitments.

And even if Gandhi did a magnificent job of uniting India and kicking out the Brits, we must look at what India was before the Brits came. A hodgepodge of warring principalities, divided over religion and everything else imaginable, easy picking for any divide and conquer strategy.

And if both India and Pakistan want to realize their potential, they must patch up their differences.

 

[nick1985]

they must patch up their differences.

dont hold your breath

 

[Zebo]

Pakistani Army by day, Al-Qaeda by night. Just let them have the nukes already and lets get it on.

 

[Lemon law]

Pakistani Army by day, Al-Qaeda by night. Just let them have the nukes already and lets get it on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I very much wonder if it might be more accurately stated Pakistani army by day and Taliban
by night to describe certain rouge elements in the Pakistani army.

The Taliban is a regional movement confined to Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan while Al-Quida is an international terrorists movement with international objectives.

And maybe the Nato mistake was to define them as one and the same by treating them the same. And like all self fulfilling prophecies, it can have disastrous consequences. While divorcing the mind into a unreality incapable of seeing the larger picture.

 

[Mucho]

Pakistan is making the right decision because sooner or later the American will leave and Pakistan will be left holding the bag. They shouldn't put themselves into the position of becoming the next Cambodia.

 

[JSt0rm]

I blame obama for ignoring this war.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

We lost Afghanistan the day we invaded Iraq.

We need to declare victory and leave, because with no one in Pakistan to back us up, it's pointless to continue.

 

[Lemon law]

First of all, JStOrm01 is way off base blaming Obama. If anything Obama has done more in one year to make investments in troops than GWB did in eight. But give Haybasusa Rider some credit in saying Afghanistan was lost long before Obama was elected.

But I still think that Obama is not blameless when he should be thinking outside the box with radically different strategies. And face the facts, if Obama tries only slightly improved GWB strategies he will still get GWB shit results.

Nato has tried to foist off a totally ineffectual and corrupt Afghan government and the Afghan people we need the support of get anarchy and drug financed corruption instead.

Regardless if we know it or not, its still a matter of winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan people, and when Nato's shows only a we got to kill you to save you response, its a sure loser. And the second failure is in our failure to drive a wedge between the Al-Quida and the Taliban. When we treat them the same, we only get the Taliban must respond in kind. Not too smart when most Taliban members are the very sons of the Afghan people who were motivated to stamp out the drugs and corruption that flowered after the Russians left.

Afghanistan and Pakistan are still winnable in MHO, but we need a radically different approach and not slight improvements.

Sadly all the Taliban has to do is point to current State of Afghanistan and their message of throw the Western devils out resonates. But Afghanistan has not had any decent government since 1937. The people in the Tribal regions of Pakistan are not used to this kind of crapola, and now they hate the Taliban, the Government of Pakistan, Nato, and there is little cause for any optimism.

In such conditions, the give me the old time religion thrives.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Good that its over this shit hole has never been defeated in war. EVER!

 

[JSt0rm]

First of all, JStOrm01 is way off base blaming Obama. If anything Obama has done more in one year to make investments in troops than GWB did in eight. But give Haybasusa Rider some credit in saying Afghanistan was lost long before Obama was elected.

better check your sarcasm meter bro ^_^

 

[zephyrprime]

There is simply no way to win wars like this without committing mass genocide. A surgical war that defeats a largely indigenous foe while not harming civilians (many of whom provide aid & comfort to our enemies) is impossible.

The US should not engage in wars like this under the false notion that it will be possible to transmogrify the country into a modern, peaceful state afterwards because doing so is impossible. Instead, the US should fight a conventional war where terrorist forces are mostly killed and then simply leave the battlefield. Of course, it will be necessary to come back and fight again in a few years but doing so will yield better results, cause less deaths, and cost less money than the current impossible mode of warfare.

 

[JTsyo]

Third time's a charm. Next country to invade Afghanistan might actually not screw it up.

US was the third. UK was the first.

 

[cirrrocco]

The US even provided them drone technology when gates was over there yesterday. They should have kicked their ass and told the paks that their country is going to be in a world of hurt, if they keep providing succor to the taliban, al qaeda..basically the bad guys