War Crimes - this is why the ACLU is good for America

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...p-dyn/A20986-2004Dec22

War Crimes

Thursday, December 23, 2004; Page A22

THANKS TO a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, thousands of pages of government documents released this month have confirmed some of the painful truths about the abuse of foreign detainees by the U.S. military and the CIA -- truths the Bush administration implacably has refused to acknowledge. Since the publication of photographs of abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in the spring the administration's whitewashers -- led by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld -- have contended that the crimes were carried out by a few low-ranking reservists, that they were limited to the night shift during a few chaotic months at Abu Ghraib in 2003, that they were unrelated to the interrogation of prisoners and that no torture occurred at the Guantanamo Bay prison where hundreds of terrorism suspects are held. The new documents establish beyond any doubt that every part of this cover story is false.

Though they represent only part of the record that lies in government files, the documents show that the abuse of prisoners was already occurring at Guantanamo in 2002 and continued in Iraq even after the outcry over the Abu Ghraib photographs. FBI agents reported in internal e-mails and memos about systematic abuses by military interrogators at the base in Cuba, including beatings, chokings, prolonged sleep deprivation and humiliations such as being wrapped in an Israeli flag. "On a couple of occasions I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water," an unidentified FBI agent wrote on Aug. 2, 2004. "Most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18 to 24 hours or more." Two defense intelligence officials reported seeing prisoners severely beaten in Baghdad by members of a special operations unit, Task Force 6-26, in June. When they protested they were threatened and pictures they took were confiscated.

Other documents detail abuses by Marines in Iraq, including mock executions and the torture of detainees by burning and electric shock. Several dozen detainees have died in U.S. custody. In many cases, Army investigations of these crimes were shockingly shoddy: Officials lost records, failed to conduct autopsies after suspicious deaths and allowed evidence to be contaminated. Soldiers found to have committed war crimes were excused with noncriminal punishments. The summary of one suspicious death of a detainee at the Abu Ghraib prison reads: "No crime scene exam was conducted, no autopsy conducted, no copy of medical file obtained for investigation because copy machine broken in medical office."
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) government agencies are required to disclose records requested in writing by any person.

The ACLU apparently requested and received information. How does this make them special?

 

Mean MrMustard

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2001
3,144
10
81
To get the information out.

I'm sure you and the rest of us already requested the information for ourselves so I guess their just making sure, right?;)
 

tallest1

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2001
3,474
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) government agencies are required to disclose records requested in writing by any person.

The ACLU apparently requested and received information. How does this make them special?

Because most people (and even the media) rarely do so (perhaps in fear of appearing unpatriotic, i dunno).

If doing the above were so simple that a child could do it, this news would've been revealed months ago when the Red Cross (an organization often called fanatically to the left by some conservatives here :confused: ) publicly raised some concerns about the treatment of prisoners/detainees.

Edit: grammar
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
11
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) government agencies are required to disclose records requested in writing by any person.

The ACLU apparently requested and received information. How does this make them special?
THANKS TO a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, thousands of pages of government documents released...
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) government agencies are required to disclose records requested in writing by any person.

The ACLU apparently requested and received information. How does this make them special?
THANKS TO a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, thousands of pages of government documents released...

On June 2, 2004, the ACLU and its allies filed a lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act demanding the release of information about detainees held by the United States at military bases and other detention facilities overseas. The lawsuit relates to a Freedom of Information Act request that was filed in October 2003 - almost eight months ago - with the Defense Department and other government agencies. The request seeks records concerning the treatment and interrogation of detainees in United States custody, the deaths of detainees in United States custody, and the ?rendition? of detainees to countries known to use torture.

Since the request was filed, numerous news agencies have reported the abuse of detainees held in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is growing evidence that the abuse of detainees was not aberrational but systemic, and that senior officials either approved of the abuse or were deliberately indifferent to it. The ACLU believes that the public has a right to know what the government's policies were, why these abuses were allowed to take place, and who was ultimately responsible.

Link

So they basically requested information under the FOIA.

I guess filing a lawsuit and "demanding" the information makes their request sound dramatic.

What a joke. Just a lot of grandstanding as far as I can tell.

Here are the reports the ACLU is referencing, look them them if you're bored:

Link
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) government agencies are required to disclose records requested in writing by any person.

The ACLU apparently requested and received information. How does this make them special?
THANKS TO a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, thousands of pages of government documents released...

On June 2, 2004, the ACLU and its allies filed a lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act demanding the release of information about detainees held by the United States at military bases and other detention facilities overseas. The lawsuit relates to a Freedom of Information Act request that was filed in October 2003 - almost eight months ago - with the Defense Department and other government agencies. The request seeks records concerning the treatment and interrogation of detainees in United States custody, the deaths of detainees in United States custody, and the ?rendition? of detainees to countries known to use torture.

Since the request was filed, numerous news agencies have reported the abuse of detainees held in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is growing evidence that the abuse of detainees was not aberrational but systemic, and that senior officials either approved of the abuse or were deliberately indifferent to it. The ACLU believes that the public has a right to know what the government's policies were, why these abuses were allowed to take place, and who was ultimately responsible.

Link

So they basically requested information under the FOIA.

I guess filing a lawsuit and "demanding" the information makes their request sound dramatic.

What a joke. Just a lot of grandstanding as far as I can tell.

Here are the reports the ACLU is referencing, look them them if you're bored:

Link

I would assume they filed the lawsuit because Bush first rejected the request.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
That would be illegal.

They probably didn't get exactly what they wanted or they didn't get it fast enough.

I read through a half-dozen or so of the reports and it looks like much to do about nothing.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
THey are protecting OUR SOLDIERS by trying to force OUR/MY GOVERNMENT to abide by the rule of law and NOT TORTURE PEOPLE... so in turn others do not torture us and so Lady Liberty can quit feeling like a whore.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
Originally posted by: Riprorin
That would be illegal.

They probably didn't get exactly what they wanted or they didn't get it fast enough.

I read through a half-dozen or so of the reports and it looks like much to do about nothing.

Well if you recall Ashcroft said govt. agencies had his backing in delaying/denying requests. Because someone asks does not mean they are given. There has been an attempt at wholesale reclassifying public documents in order to prevent access. Even if the request is "granted" there may be a very very very long time in getting the material into the hands of those asking for it.

Just how it is.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
THey are protecting OUR SOLDIERS by trying to force OUR/MY GOVERNMENT to abide by the rule of law and NOT TORTURE PEOPLE... so in turn others do not torture us and so Lady Liberty can quit feeling like a whore.

If our government wasn't concerned with the rule of law, why are they documenting all of the cases of the allegations of wrongdoing that now appear on the ACLU website?

It's just a bunch of grandstanding and sensationalism from a morally bankrupt organization.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: dahunan
THey are protecting OUR SOLDIERS by trying to force OUR/MY GOVERNMENT to abide by the rule of law and NOT TORTURE PEOPLE... so in turn others do not torture us and so Lady Liberty can quit feeling like a whore.

If our government wasn't concerned with the rule of law, why are they documenting all of the cases of the allegations of wrongdoing that now appear on the ACLU website?

It's just a bunch of grandstanding and sensationalism from a morally bankrupt organization.

The ACLU is not a moral orgination they don't care if what you do is moral they are to protect liberitys.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: dahunan
THey are protecting OUR SOLDIERS by trying to force OUR/MY GOVERNMENT to abide by the rule of law and NOT TORTURE PEOPLE... so in turn others do not torture us and so Lady Liberty can quit feeling like a whore.

If our government wasn't concerned with the rule of law, why are they documenting all of the cases of the allegations of wrongdoing that now appear on the ACLU website?

It's just a bunch of grandstanding and sensationalism from a morally bankrupt organization.

The ACLU is not a moral orgination they don't care if what you do is moral they are to protect liberitys.

By harrassing the Boy Scouts, for example?
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: dahunan
THey are protecting OUR SOLDIERS by trying to force OUR/MY GOVERNMENT to abide by the rule of law and NOT TORTURE PEOPLE... so in turn others do not torture us and so Lady Liberty can quit feeling like a whore.

If our government wasn't concerned with the rule of law, why are they documenting all of the cases of the allegations of wrongdoing that now appear on the ACLU website?

It's just a bunch of grandstanding and sensationalism from a morally bankrupt organization.



Why are they investigating? Think about it... because they have been caught.

You just hate the ACLU becuase they protect Homosexuals.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.

 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.


Agreed... You dont get arrested for rioting for quoting the bible... and bibles dont count as instruments of crime

Like i said in the thread devoted to this horrible piece of journalism... this is just another attempt to make christians and conservatives look like victims...

Oh... and btw ... id love to see you try and get one of these miracles of blowing down buildings...


EDIT: forgot a word... or two
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.


Agreed... You dont get arrested for rioting for quoting the bible... and bibles dont count as

Like i said in the thread devoted to this horrible piece of journalism... this is just another attempt to make christians and conservatives look like victims...

Oh... and btw ... id love to see you try and get one of these miracles of blowing down buildings...

So, you watched the video?
 

PizzaYummy

Banned
Dec 18, 2004
31
0
0
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.


Agreed... You dont get arrested for rioting for quoting the bible... and bibles dont count as

Like i said in the thread devoted to this horrible piece of journalism... this is just another attempt to make christians and conservatives look like victims...

Oh... and btw ... id love to see you try and get one of these miracles of blowing down buildings...

Are you one of the Pink Nazis? The christians were just walking ont he sidewalk which they had every right to do. Intolerant homosexuals were harrassing them the entire time.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.


Agreed... You dont get arrested for rioting for quoting the bible... and bibles dont count as

Like i said in the thread devoted to this horrible piece of journalism... this is just another attempt to make christians and conservatives look like victims...

Oh... and btw ... id love to see you try and get one of these miracles of blowing down buildings...

So, you watched the video?

Man i love having one arguement in two threads ...

THEY DID NOT GET ARRESTED FOR WHAT WAS CAUGHT ON FILM...
I am not going to download some video that has nothing to do with what they got arrested for... EVERY LINK OR ARTICLE YOU GIVE SPECIFICALLY FAILS TO MENTION WHAT THEY DID TO GET ARRESTED..

you and them are not victims... what they did was illegal they got arrested ... i dont care if there is some video shot at another time not involved with why the got arrested...
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Originally posted by: PizzaYummy
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.


Agreed... You dont get arrested for rioting for quoting the bible... and bibles dont count as

Like i said in the thread devoted to this horrible piece of journalism... this is just another attempt to make christians and conservatives look like victims...

Oh... and btw ... id love to see you try and get one of these miracles of blowing down buildings...

Are you one of the Pink Nazis? The christians were just walking ont he sidewalk which they had every right to do. Intolerant homosexuals were harrassing them the entire time.


You know it... now i guess we are going to start the name calling section of arguing with a conservative... You start to lose then you start insinuating that im gay... wow... never fails to amaze me...
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) government agencies are required to disclose records requested in writing by any person.

The ACLU apparently requested and received information. How does this make them special?

the ACLU is needed.

they hold the govt. accountale although sometimes they are a bit ridiculous
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: SirStev0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, because they fight the consistant fight whether it's popular or not.

Sometimes I don't like the cases they take, sometimes I do.

They do??? Where are they in this case????

Free the Philadelphia 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 20, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

I'm amazed when seemingly intelligent people tell me they still think the American Civil Liberties Union is a group that fights for First Amendment freedoms no matter whose ox is being gored.

If that's the case, why is the ACLU not filing amicus briefs in Philadelphia where four Christians are facing 47 years in jail for expressing their free-speech rights?

That's right. Four Christians are facing 47 years in prison for peacefully quoting the Bible, an action an unglued local prosecutor determined to be "fighting words" when cited among homosexual activists.

It all started Oct. 10, when a total of 11 members of Repent America attended a homosexual street festival called "Outfest."

The group, ranging in age from 17 to 72, was surrounded at times by the organizers' security force, known as the "Pink Angels."

Videotapes and still photos taken at the event show the Pink Angels blocking the path of the Repent America members, shouting at them, blowing whistles and so forth. The Christians remain peaceful and calm at all times, despite what appears to be extraordinary provocation, intimidation and harassment.

Guess who was arrested?

That's right. The Christians.

And they've been charged with a long list of felonies and hate crimes that would make the Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Repent America director Michael Marcavage is charged with three felonies ? criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation and riot. (If you're wondering what "ethnic intimidation" means at a homosexual event, you have to understand the city of Philadelphia has extended hate crime laws to protect the sexually aberrant as well as racial minorities.) He was also hit with five misdemeanors for walking on the city sidewalks and quoting Holy Scriptures.

Mark Diener and James Cruse are charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. The criminal conspiracy charge links all the defendants together so that Marcavage's "ethnic intimidation" hate-crime charge will apply to all of them.

This is one of the most brazen, frontal attacks on religious freedom and free speech I have seen in my lifetime. If these charges stand, Christians across America will soon be hunted down like dogs as they are in many parts of the world today as the most persecuted religious group on the planet.

It's ironic that this persecution would take place in Philadelphia, the so-called "City of Brotherly Love."

Of course, Philadelphia wasn't always so inhospitable to Christians.

It's worth remembering the very first legislative act in Pennsylvania, April 25, 1682. It was called the Great Law of Pennsylvania ? and great it was.

"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government, and, therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ... [there shall be established] laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, and Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression."

If indeed the Philadelphia 4 are convicted and sentenced to hard time, Christians need to march on the Philadelphia courthouse, encircle it, blow the trumpets and prepare to watch God work a miracle like He did at Jericho.

We should do this not just for the injustice to the four Philadelphia Christians, but because no one in America ? not Christians or non-Christians, not black or white, not homosexual or heterosexual ? will truly be free. We will be living in a country where people can be imprisoned arbitrarily for breaking no law other than the law of "political correctness."

If we're going to save freedom in America, it's going to take a miracle.

Will you come to Philadelphia?

Link

I'd like to know the WHOLE story about what happened, plus coming from worldnetdaily doesn't help, PLUS do you know whether or not the ACLU has been contacted?

I find it funny that the group that fights so gd hard to destroy the ACLU is outraged when it doesn't jump to their aid. They will if they're asked or aware, but that little tyrade doesn't indicate whether or not they even know or the reason WHY they may have rejected the case.


Agreed... You dont get arrested for rioting for quoting the bible... and bibles dont count as

Like i said in the thread devoted to this horrible piece of journalism... this is just another attempt to make christians and conservatives look like victims...

Oh... and btw ... id love to see you try and get one of these miracles of blowing down buildings...

So, you watched the video?

Man i love having one arguement in two threads ...

THEY DID NOT GET ARRESTED FOR WHAT WAS CAUGHT ON FILM...
I am not going to download some video that has nothing to do with what they got arrested for... EVERY LINK OR ARTICLE YOU GIVE SPECIFICALLY FAILS TO MENTION WHAT THEY DID TO GET ARRESTED..

you and them are not victims... what they did was illegal they got arrested ... i dont care if there is some video shot at another time not involved with why the got arrested...

Why are you afraid to watch the video?

Check it out, you might be surprised.