WaPo obtained and published full transcript of Trump-Mexico/Australia calls

[fskimospy]

This is hard to type because it will seem to some as a defence of the shit for brains in the oval office, but I assure you it is NOT!! But IF these leaks are OK because it reveals how Trump has lied to the people and is willing to create more lies to cover up the old ones, why were the leaks from the DNC so bad? Did they not do the exact same thing? They revealed how the entire DNC was in on the deliberate crowning of Clinton and the destruction of Bernie's chances. Is it because it was purportedly the Russians were the ones who did the reviling? Why is one good and one bad?

DNC is a private organization, these leaks are details of official actions taken by the president on our behalf.

 

[UNCjigga]

I'm starting to think that some of these leaks are meant to be cover for Congress to impeach the President and bring in a new Administration. Once foreign leaders believe their every word could be front page news, they will stop talking to the White House. A White House with no foreign relations cred isn't a White House that Congress has any confidence in.

 

[SNC]

DNC is a private organization, these leaks are details of official actions taken by the president on our behalf.

To argue that the DNC is a private org is a bit of a stretch, yes I know technically it is. Are you arguing that official communications between governments being leaked is less important than a private orgs? I'm just trying to get a grip on why if one is good the other bad.

 

[Thebobo]

$1 says it's Pence and clan leaking, they want their own christian caliphate.

 

[zinfamous]

This is hard to type because it will seem to some as a defence of the shit for brains in the oval office, but I assure you it is NOT!! But IF these leaks are OK because it reveals how Trump has lied to the people and is willing to create more lies to cover up the old ones, why were the leaks from the DNC so bad? Did they not do the exact same thing? They revealed how the entire DNC was in on the deliberate crowning of Clinton and the destruction of Bernie's chances. Is it because it was purportedly the Russians were the ones who did the reviling? Why is one good and one bad?

I think the DNC leaks were just as good/bad in the general sense of what a leak is. But the DNC leaks are party politics. It is no mystery that the party prefers its party members (Bernie is not a democratic party member), and especially those that have long carried the water for the party (the Clintons--recall their work against that upstart, Obama).

But these are internal party politics, and do not involve the so-called "leader of the free world" who's clinical insanity represents a clear threat to the entire republic and the citizens who dwell within. These leaks expose in an indirect manner the utter cravenness of the deluded Trump supporters that continue to suck dick for this diseased human, no matter the cost and no matter the deaths that result due to his incompetence. These leaks shine a light on the terrorists that reside among us--the holy WASPS that believe Trump is their savior, and that he is here to shuffle the blessed on to glory while the "unamerican atheists" are burned alive in the fires of nuclear winter that Trump has been brought to deliver.

Make no mistake: these are leaks that clearly expose the kind of dsieased mentality that continue to support despotism in the US.

 

[K1052]

This is hard to type because it will seem to some as a defence of the shit for brains in the oval office, but I assure you it is NOT!! But IF these leaks are OK because it reveals how Trump has lied to the people and is willing to create more lies to cover up the old ones, why were the leaks from the DNC so bad? Did they not do the exact same thing? They revealed how the entire DNC was in on the deliberate crowning of Clinton and the destruction of Bernie's chances. Is it because it was purportedly the Russians were the ones who did the reviling? Why is one good and one bad?

I could not possibly give less of a shit about the internal sausage making of the DNC or RNC. Only people who have never read much about politics would be shocked by anything revealed in the DNC hack. People seem to have a huge blind spot about the past on this, the shenanigans that used to go on make this look like child's play.

Foreign interference in our electoral process to affect outcomes that are not in our national interest is another matter entirely.

 

[Blackjack200]

To argue that the DNC is a private org is a bit of a stretch, yes I know technically it is. Are you arguing that official communications between governments being leaked is less important than a private orgs? I'm just trying to get a grip on why if one is good the other bad.

It's far more important. Most government leaks, like Snowden's leak, Manning's leak, and this one, benefit the public at the expense of the people in power.

The DNC leak revealed the same crap that goes on inside any political party. It's one place I break with the left, I don't think those leaks meant shit (except for the media pretending they were a big deal).

 

[SNC]

I could not possibly give less of a shit about the internal sausage making of the DNC or RNC. Only people who have never read much about politics would be shocked by anything revealed in the DNC hack. People seem to have a huge blind spot about the past on this, the shenanigans that used to go on make this look like child's play.

Foreign interference in our electoral process to effect outcomes that are not in our national interest is another matter entirely.

Right but I'm not referring to the content the hack revealed, but the hack and release itself. Or is it a ends justify the means situation?

 

[Puffnstuff]

Trump has lived a lifetime of having things his way and now that he's under the scrutiny of the highest public office in the land he doesn't like the attention it brings even though he's a drama queen that thrives on being the central focus of his sad little world. I'm hoping this plays out to the benefit of our nation and this pathetic little charade comes to a screeching halt.

 

[Blackjack200]

Right but I'm not referring to the content the hack revealed, but the hack and release itself. Or is it a ends justify the means situation?

From a moral or ethical perspective? From a legal perspective? What are you asking?

 

[K1052]

Right but I'm not referring to the content the hack revealed, but the hack and release itself. Or is it a ends justify the means situation?

The DNC and RNC aren't the government. Internal government sources exposing that the President or other US officials are lying to the American people is not a comparable situation to the Russia-Wikileaks endeavor.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Right but I'm not referring to the content the hack revealed, but the hack and release itself. Or is it a ends justify the means situation?

This is a very good question. My opinion on the legal aspect is that neither the hack nor the leak was legal. The hack was clearly illegal because of several laws against it. The latter is a matter of the Office of the President being able to communicate privately with heads of state. This isn't a matter of a dinner with Comey where a terminated federal employee discusses events as a private citizen.

That said, "ends justifies the means" is far more complicated. In cases like these many will approve from their own perspective. The sausage making as it has been referred to is important because if there is rotted dead diseased cat in it then a good case can be made. Likewise if a President is duplicitous, people will want to know because these things are relevant to the future of the nation.

This comes down to an everyday situation, the balance between what is legal and what is "right". The latter in quoted because unlike law the definition of right very much a personal thing and we face a variant of the Trolley Problem. Which "wrong" do we choose, doing nothing, killing one, or killing five? Are any of them even wrong or right?

Break the law and reveal skulduggery, or give difference to the law, or just hope it all goes away and make no decisions at all.

For myself that is not something I can predict in advance. I am glad I know more, however I realize that at some future time the decision to reveal may do serious harm.

But the law or the ends do not in themselves choose an action. It is our own ethical and moral standards and whether we have the strength to make a decision that ultimately actualizes our actions.

I've not given you a direct answer I'm afraid, just an opinion of how I see the choices are made.

 

[SNC]

From a moral or ethical perspective? From a legal perspective? What are you asking?

I guess my conundrum is I don't see big difference in those options. I guess it would be easier if I used blinders that focused in only one direction. I'm not expecting to have someone GIVE me an answer, I'm looking for ways to reconcile my distaste for the leaking, and my utter and complete disrespect for the person who was the subject of the leak. The exact same thing I did with the DNC leaks\hacks. I'm not ready to jump on the leaks are good bandwagon just because I hate the person they expose. Hayabusa outlined my issue with the leaks, but did nothing to help me resolve them. So I'm not alone, that helps.

 

[Stokely]

This is hard to type because it will seem to some as a defence of the shit for brains in the oval office, but I assure you it is NOT!! But IF these leaks are OK because it reveals how Trump has lied to the people and is willing to create more lies to cover up the old ones, why were the leaks from the DNC so bad? Did they not do the exact same thing? They revealed how the entire DNC was in on the deliberate crowning of Clinton and the destruction of Bernie's chances. Is it because it was purportedly the Russians were the ones who did the reviling? Why is one good and one bad?

Personally I don't think the leaks *were* bad. If the DNC is doing that kind of shit, I want to know about it. It's very unfortunate since it helped Trump get elected--but honestly a lot of Bernie voters were already so pissed off that their horse lost that they were going to let things go to hell anyway. Hopefully the fact that anything can be hacked/leaked has the effect that these slimeball political entities will clean up their act. Either that, or they all just double down on the fake news trumpeting...when no facts can be trusted, what does it matter what gets released? George Orwell would have just thrown down his pen if he was writing today....

 

[Fanatical Meat]

And *some* Democrats say these leaks are inappropriate

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/04/politics/leaking-donald-trump-democrats/index.html

 

[fskimospy]

To argue that the DNC is a private org is a bit of a stretch, yes I know technically it is. Are you arguing that official communications between governments being leaked is less important than a private orgs? I'm just trying to get a grip on why if one is good the other bad.

I'm saying that actions by public officials are of far greater public interest than the workings of a private organization. The DNC hacks were indefensible under any standard, government leaks are sometimes good, sometimes bad.

As a note, I don't support these leaks as it's very important for the president to be able to communicate with foreign leaders candidly. While these leaks show Trump to be an incompetent liar they don't show any malfeasance, which would be the only reason I would support their release. It does harm to the country as a whole because this president and future ones may be worried what they say to foreign leaders will be released.

 

[dank69]

It's far more important. Most government leaks, like Snowden's leak, Manning's leak, and this one, benefit the public at the expense of the people in power.

The DNC leak revealed the same crap that goes on inside any political party. It's one place I break with the left, I don't think those leaks meant shit (except for the media pretending they were a big deal).

What was actually in the DNC leaks meant shit. The timing of the leaks and the constant mischaracterization of what was actually in the leaks were the actual problems.

 

[Blackjack200]

As a note, I don't support these leaks as it's very important for the president to be able to communicate with foreign leaders candidly.

I disagree with you there. Maybe in theory this is correct, but I think we need to consider our specific circumstances, the track record of this administration, their expressed and demonstrated contempt for norms of good democratic governance, and their vicious attacks on vulnerable populations.

I think it's a very good thing if this administration is forced to operate as though every thing they say could see daylight.

 

[agent00f]

From a moral or ethical perspective? From a legal perspective? What are you asking?

He just wants to keep talking about DNC leaks to make them seem equivalent to Trump corruption, same as buckshot keeps talking about creationism to teach the controversy.

Of course liberals comply because they feel obliged to "education the moron". Conservatives are a lot better at politics because they're unrestrained by any such ethics or virtue.

 

[SNC]

He just wants to keep talking about DNC leaks to make them seem equivalent to Trump corruption, same as buckshot keeps talking about creationism to teach the controversy.

Of course liberals comply because they feel obliged to "education the moron". Conservatives are a lot better at politics because they're unrestrained by any ethics or virtue.

Again, we were having such a nice conversation without you. Do you ever tire of spreading hate and malcontent? I'm guessing lunch wasn't ready yet...
You steaming pile of horse shit.

 

[agent00f]

Again, we were having such a nice conversation without you. Do you ever tire of spreading hate and malcontent? I'm guessing lunch wasn't ready yet...
You steaming pile of horse shit.

It's simple observable reality what you & buckshot types do, which anyone can empirically verify. New trump controversy? Better trot out butter emails or some uppity minority story again. InB4 libtards are the Real racists leakers.

 

[OrByte]

On the one hand, the leaks expose an administration that makes a mess everywhere it goes....but we already have a good sense of that. No need to keep beating that drum

on the other hand, this only means that Trump and Co are going to work that much harder to make sure their business doesn't leak out in the open, making it harder to keep an eye on him.

We should be balancing the needs of the country versus the needs to allow ANY POTUS to conduct work with the appropriate level of transparency.

That being said, if Trump is having private conversations with Putin...someone in our government should be listening in OTHER than Trump and his personal family.

 

[DisarmedDespot]

I don't know why Trump and company can't grasp the idea of carrot-and-stick. By all means punish leakers, but you need to show you're a competent and responsible administration to earn respect. They've made government bureaucrats into their second favorite punching bag (after the media) based on the deep state conspiracy theory, but it's so much simpler. These are career public servants, many of them having been there long enough to see three or more administrations come and go. They're not leaking because of sweet George Soros shillbux, they're leaking because the Trump administration is an absolute dumpster fire full of contradictory statements and petty infighting. It very much looks like Trump and his underlings are either unwilling or unable to govern effectively. If the Trump administration would get their shit in order, I can guarantee the leaks would dry up.

But I guess that's harder than whining about it.