want to set up 2 types of networks ??

[cyn1k]

Okay, right now I have 3 computers which will be using phoneline networking (we already have the cards, mine as well keep it set up).. however I'm having some problems configuring that set up as well as I've heard it is a bit slow at times. I'm buying a new computer which is going to be hooked up only 1 room apart from the main computer which is acting as a gateway right now with some crappy proxy software. So... Is it possible for me to physically wire the new computer and the server computer together and set those up to share the connection, as well as having 2 other computers share the connection on a phoneline network?

If this is possible, what is the best way to link just 2 computers together through wiring? Do I just need to buy a cheap hub and then connect the 2 with that? Please help me here I really need some info on how to do this. The other computers will be fine on their current setup, I just want this other computer to be wired directly for faster speeds and simplicity

(I dont know if this is important or not, but all of the computers are running Windows XP.)

 

[sohcrates]

how do you have the phoneline network working right now? do you already have a hub? is the phonline network "split" or something? (i'm not sure how those things work!)

basically, you would need to do as you suggested. either get a hub or a switch.

run the output from the gateway computer into the hub/switch, and then run the outputs to the other computers (both hard wired and phonline wired)

 

[cyn1k]

The way it is set up now.. There is one computer upstairs with a phoneline network card which connects to a phonejack. Another computer in the basement (2 floors down) Has another phoneline network card in it which is also connected to the phonejack, this is what is connecting those 2 computers together.. The same jack in the basement has a splitter on it, so another line also runs to the adsl modem, and the adsl modem then runs to the computers regular ethernet NIC.

The kit we bought came with the 2 phoneline cards and a program called midpoint lite to run it all. Its a proxy based program.. The upstairs computer can use the web fine, however it cant use email, gamespy, icq, morpheus (file sharing program like napster) or any other internet-using apps! Very frustrating, I just dont know how to configure the proxies right yet.

I'm going to be buying another computer which will be close to the basement server with the adsl connect as I said before.. I've had other pains with the phoneline network when trying software like SyGate (that didnt work).. So I wanted to just wire these 2 computers together since that seems to be the norm. So as it is now, I dont have a hub/router/switch at all, just the midpoint software. There will also be a laptop connected periodically I should mention via the phoneline system also...

With 4 computers soon to be sharing this same ADSL connection, I was thinking I should maybe get a router/switch or something, but I dont want to spend too much money if at all possible! So what do I need? On the d-link website there is a product called the DHN-1000 Ethernet to HomePNA Bridge which I could buy, but that also requires a router am I correct? So thats gona run me up a lot of money...

I hope this info can help you help me.. .. I should mention that its important I can get gamespy and other programs like it working since thats what I use most! If its a router I need, a router I shall buy.. maybe I need the bridge + a router.. Or maybe just a hub to connect the PC's and then use software on the main computer...

If I have to buy too much stuff for all this to set up correctly it would be more worthwhile for me to simply go and buy another adsl connection, thats why I'd like the most simple solution possible..

 

[sohcrates]

all i foresee you needing is a regular router

basically, the adsl goes right into router in the WAN port, and phoneline stuff plugs into back of router and so does hard wired downstairs computer.

shouldn't be too bad to setup (we could tackle that one when you actually buy a router)

routers vary in price. i know linksys sells a router for pretty cheap these days. watch for best buy/comp usa/ circuit city deals...or you could of course order online.

do an AT forms search for linksys and router and see what you can find. or someone else might join us in this thread and suggest a different router.

i personally use an SMC barricade...but they're a little more expensive.

 

[cyn1k]

I actually already did a little bit of research on routers which were compatable with my home phoneline network.. and came up with these routers

linksys hpro200 -Cheap, some bad reviews from users on www.practicallynetworked.com, might be slow.. not sure about this one

netgear rp334 -Very expensive ($250 US is the cheapest I can find, plus shipping etc. and I'm up to around $450 canadian, ouch)
-However, very good reviews.. fast... would love to get it if I had the money..

2wire homePortal 100 -Also fairly expensive ($199 US)
-review from www.practicallynetworked.com said it was very fast, might lack some features though (I really
dont know enough to explain what it lacks though, check the review if you have time


Also, based off what I saw on the dlink site about a sample setup (http://www.dlink.ca/products/DigitalHome/Hpna/HomePNA-SetupDiagram.htm)
I can buy a router + ethernet bridge and that will take care of everything too.. both of those together would run me a good $300 US though, so thats also extremely expensive.

So given those options, I was leaning towards getting the 2wire homeportal 100 (or possibly even the netgear rp334 if really necessary), but I wanted to find out more about what my options were etc. from this forum.. if you could skim the review of that router and tell me if you think its what I need please do .... And if I do go that way.. the way I understand it, the router is a hardware solution to networking therefore eliminating my need for a software program like midpoint lite or sygate? Will this kind of router be easy to configure for games, email, and other applications? Again, from what I read on the review it sounded like it was made for novices (me )

and thanks for your help so far sohcrates, I was really in the dark here

 

[sohcrates]

i'll check out those reviews at work tomorrow

time for bed!

 

[cyn1k]

alright sounds good, I dont get the new computer till friday so you have a couple days to figure this out for me, or else (just kidding )

 

[sohcrates]

ok, i'm gonna need a little more help here

when you say the adsl modem runs to the gateway machine...that means that that one machine has BOTH a regular ethernet card AND a phoneline networking card in it right?

if so, then my first impression is that all you would need is a router as far as i can see.

BUT, i've never actually fooled around with phoneline networking!

can you tell me what brand and model of phoneline equipment you use? perhaps i can go read up on how it works exactly

we'll figure this out, don't worry!

 

[sohcrates]

ok...i think i figured it out.

if you do indeed have a computer with 2 NICs in it, then that in effect is acting as your "bridge" from ethernet to phoneline

so, all you DO need is a router

dsl modem goes into router...one out goes to computer wired with cat5 and one goes to computer that acts as "bridge"

now all you need to do is figure out what's the cheapest router that has as many ports as you need

 

[cyn1k]

Yeah you are right I'm using both an NIC and the phoneline thing on the one main computer

The phoneline kit is the D-Link DHN-910 I believe, comes with 2 pci cards and some software

Okay, so I need to find out what the cheapest, decent router is that I can use... does that mean I'll still need some software or no? The router takes place of the software right? I want to get something which is easy to configure for gaming.. I've heard a lot about having to open different ports for different applications with proxy based software, and NAT based software/hardware sounds a little bit easier to configure in terms of opening ports etc.. so I wouldnt mind going that route (pun intended)

The one thing that seems kind of strange to me though, is that if the main computer is acting like an ethernet -> phoneline bridge.. then that means its going to be the thing connecting the other computers to my modem, so if I install a router, I'm still going to need to be running some software on the main computer right? That sounds really strange if I have a router AND software going at once

P.S> I read about the 2wire homeportal 100 last night in some user reviews and a lot of people were having trouble using the game everquest with it.. my brother plays that game a lot and so if it has conflicts trying to run that game I'll have to go with the netgear rp334 most likely (if that is easier to manually set ports available for applications).. unless your correct and I can just get a real cheap router

I may call 2wire tech support and see what they say about it, or d-link

 

[sohcrates]

yeah, might be worth calling and seeing what they have to say

in answer to your question, yes, you would still need to be running that gateway software on your machine with 2 network cards...that's special phoneline software that needs to be there unfortunately (as far as i know).

it's basically like connecting a router to a router then (first router will be your new hardware router...second will be the computer)

it is pretty easy to open ports on a hardware router...and that's just what you will need to do to get games working and such. yeah, i've heard about issues with everquest before, do some searches on the forums here with keyword everquest and see if you can find anything)

 

[cyn1k]

The software is called Midpoint Lite.. I'm pretty sure its the same as something like SyGate or WinGate, so its not specific phoneline software but rather just a software solution to make one computer a gateway for the other pc's on the network..

I'd be willing to try another program if you can recommend any good ones ( I had read good things about sygate but just couldnt get it working, considering trying wingate )

I'm almost leaning towards another option now of just buying a cheap hub and wiring all the basement computers together via cat5 cables, and then getting the upstairs computer its own adsl or cable connection.. Might save myself a lot of headaches that way :/ ... If that is what I choose to do then I'll have to sell all these HomePNA cards on ebay or something though so I was trying to find a way around that as we've talked about in this thread. Basically though, if I cant use programs like gamespy or my bro use everquest then its pretty much a waste having the homePNA system, since my new computer is gona be a beefed up gaming machine

I should also mention sohcrates, that the upstairs computer is still on dialup at the moment since that is the only way for my mom to access her email at the moment.. hooking her up to her own dsl/cable will only be $10 more a month if we can finally get rid of the dialup, so its really not that much a price burdon to just add another connect upstairs if thats the easiest solution. I'll discuss it with my family tonight, in the meantime though do you have any recommendations for a cheap hub to use in the basement? Just one capable of hooking up 3 computers would be perfect (so I suppose a 5-port hub?).. And also if you could clarify one thing for me: When you use a hub, once everything is hooked up there is no need to install a firewall or other software unless you feel you need it for security purposes (I know its recommended). With the hub connected to the modem and all the comps connected to the hub, ta-da and the network is all set to go right? Man that sounds so much easier

::EDIT:: was doing a little shopping around for hubs and found this one on dlinks site:

http://www.d-linkshop.ca/store.asp?v=prod&a=item&gitem=001067

looks like a good hub to me. Should be what I need.. what do you think? Could also go with a switch which I've heard is faster, even found it a bit cheaper.. was looking at this one

http://www.d-linkshop.ca/store.asp?v=prod&a=item&gitem=001166

 

[sohcrates]

allrighty...let's see here

your theory about the hub is slightly inaccurate. basically, i'm assuming you only get 1 IP address through your DSL provider right?

what your computer is currently doing is "routing" all your other machines by way of that 1 IP address. so anyone on the outside world will only see the "routing" machine (the one with 2 adapters in it)

that 10 dollars / month extra you're referring to i'm assuming is to buy a second IP, such that you could hook up 2 computers via a hub

a hub basically acts like an ethernet splitter. what it does NOT do, though, is split your internet connection. that's where a router comes into play.

a hub and a switch are basically the same thing (a switch is slightly better though)...but a ROUTER is an advanced switch...it takes the one IP address that your DSL connection is giving you and allows you to plug a multitude of computers into it...such that each has access. if you just plugged all your computers into a hub, you would have everyone be able to share files and see each other on the network, but you would not have internet access at every computer. do you kinda follow?

i think it would be quite costly to get a second DSL connection specifically for upstairs, no? that seems kinda silly

if your gateway computer is indeed simply running "normal" internet sharing software such as sygate or what not, then i would probably suggest using Internet connection sharing (ICS) which is native to winxp....that will probably work well for your needs

this is a lot of stuff to take in though....check out practicallynetworked.com for lots of good tutorials on the differences between switches and routers and hubs...

ummm....losing train of thought....

basically, i would still get a cheap router....run as MANY computers as possible with cat5 off the router...for your mom's system upstairs, run a line from the router to your gateway box, and then use the phoneline networking...yes, you'll basically have "2 routers" working at that point (the hardware router and the gateway machine) but it will provide an easy way to get internet upstairs w/out running cat5 up there or having to shell out the money for a second modem.

do ya follow any?

keep the questions coming if there are any...

 

[cyn1k]

Ahhh yes I think I followed that. I checked my current dsl package and it says I have 2 dynamic IP's allowed so I guess I could hook up 2 computers via a hub, however that would not solve my dad's laptop trying to plug in at night nor the upstairs computer which my mom will be using. When I said it would be +$10 more, I was referring to the fact that right now we are paying $40/mo for adsl downstairs and $20/mo for dialup upstairs. We havent disconnected the dialup yet because I cant get this darned network to allow the upstairs comp to access email! paying $20/mo for an email address sure sucks, but thats what we are doing until its set up correctly I suppose. Based off that info, another cable connect would only be $30/mo (therefore 10 more than the dialup) but doing that is still costly and you are right I imagine, pretty silly.

So I guess the hub/switch route is out of the question. I guess I'll have to order a router within the next few days then.. your idea of running 2 routers at once sounds like it would work, but if I am reading things correctly, those routers I linked in a previous post support home phoneline networks and so I can probably just hook that network into the router and then directly wire my computer into it.

As I said before, my main fear is just not being able to get games and other applications to work once I buy a router (that would really, really be bad). I did a LOT of reading on www.practicallynetworked.com so far, and I think I've gathered some basic knowledge on port mapping and the different problems I might encounter, but I'm still worried.

I think I might follow your suggestion about ICS via windows XP. Since all the computers in the house are using windows xp that sounds like it should work. Last time I uninstalled my midpoint software to put the sygate stuff on, the 2 phoneline NIC's stopped functioning (didnt reckognize eachother were there) but when I called tech support they said that the dlink cards should still reckognize eachother regardless of the software. Lets hope that was caused by something else and they will keep working . I will try setting up ICS and let you know how it goes though!

 

[cyn1k]

hmm ICS is all setup now, but the upstairs computer cant access the web for some reason

when I'm on the main computer downstairs and try to ping 192.168.0.2 I get 4 replies so it seems like they are networked correctly..

Also, on the upstairs computer, under its network connections there is a new gateway showing up there called Midpoint (thats the name of the basement computer, I left it named midpoint even though the software isnt installed, thats just the name) and when I open up the gateway's properties it shows that it is sending and recieving data. Seems like everything SHOULD be working, but still the upstairs one cant get on the web, says its working offline.. Hmm.. I'll keep troubleshooting I guess

::EDIT::

now THIS is the message I've been wanting to leave

THANK YOU SOHCRATES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ICS is all configured and working now!!! Yes! The computers are both able to access the internet, and the upstairs computer can even access email now with no problems at all! I even tested Gamespy Arcade and that had no problems! You've just saved me a lot of money and time! All I have to do now is make a disk to set up my dad's laptop (running windows 2000). I will do that soon.. Thank you so much sohcrates you've really helped me a ton here, and been very patient I just can't thank you enough. My week is suddenly looking a lot better! (even though I have both an economics and psychology midterm on friday, but now I can actually study for them and not fiddle with the network )

 

[sohcrates]

try pinging external IP addresses (ping yahoo.com for instance on a working computer and see what IP it resolves, and then try pinging that IP directly from upstairs from a command prompt)

if you can ping external sites, but can't browse web, then it's a DNS issue, then we can go from there.

what's different now? did you install a phoneline NIC in the upstairs computer?

 

[cyn1k]

hehe read the above post I edited as you were posting I guess!

What is different now is that I simply uninstalled the midpoint lite program and ran the network configuration wizard through XP on both systems. The reason the upstairs comp had trouble at first was that it has an extra disabled 3com NIC which the wizard tried to bridge, even though its not connected to anything. I realized my mistake when I looked at the network connections and saw the bridge.. guess I had clicked a wrong setting. So I went back through the wizard and selected the proper settings this time and voila, it worked! You are my hero for suggesting ICS sohcrates

Oh, and I should also mention, thanks for explaining the purpose of hubs/switches/routers - that was the best explination I've read and really cleared up all my confusion. Glad to see I wont be needing to buy one though since ICS should be just fine as far as I'm concerned

 

[sohcrates]

wow. glad to hear it's working out.

i guess i can go to bed now huh? heheh

/me blows on finger which have been furiously typing...

heheh

 

[cyn1k]

Yeah, job well done I would say! G'night