Want to invest in video game development?

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
You'll soon be able to: http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/18/91...-equity-investment-games-outer-wilds-masi-oka

I find this interesting and terrifying at the same time. I can't imagine the majority of gamers understand the risks associated with being an investor. I also can't imagine how Fig is going to efficiently and affordably distribute net profits from a game to an investor who owns a micro-fractional share of the development.

To me, this just has bad mojo written all over it. Tell me why I'm wrong.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Same as a stock that pays dividends. But I agree people will lose their shirts on this. Especially considering the good ones will go to kick starter anyhow as they dont have to pay you back with anything but a game.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,506
2,126
126
it's got the potential to make small investors stupid rich. i don't see a problem with it, people should just know what they are getting themselves into.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
I started a similar topic a while back; ended up was basically that SEC hadn't promulgated the rules that would allow it yet.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2382384&highlight=

I envisioned it not as each Kickstarter contributor expecting an actual return on investment, but that instead, the gaming company formed would stick to certain principles they agreed to in their funding, and not go down the path of EA, Daybreak, et al in terms of going to far in putting profit ahead of game quality (i.e. overemphasizing accessibility to make it able to sell more copies but at a cost of long term depth and enjoyment).
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
This is easy.

Is game COD clone?
No: Stay away
Yes: Go all in!

Let's face it, either only the lamest AAA titles make money or all the publishers/developers have been lying to us. I've not heard one person ever say "wow we made alot of money making that game"....except the handful of AAA title iterations that seem to continuously break records.

Thinking you will get rich off of something like this is just setting yourself up for disappointment. Your money would be better invested in existing game companies that you can't stand.
 
Last edited:

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
I support this over crowd source scams like Kickstarter. At least, with this you're getting something for the risk of investing and not simply donating.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
I'm not normally an advocate for regulation. But in this case, I think sales of investment shares should be limited to regulated markets.

Gamers are highly irrational. It's a fact. And I can see a highly irrational gamer investing money he doesn't really have thinking he's going to get rich and make a name for himself by being part of this super awesome cool game.

He's going to end up having no say in the development, $3.28 in total proceeds from his share of the net revenue, and the realization that "super awesome cool game 2" has made super awesome cool game (and his small investment) irrelevant just a few short years later....
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
It's a terrible investment idea for 99.9% of those with money to invest.

There have been 2 big indie winners, only 1 of them a game: Occulus and Minecraft. Star Citizen is a fundraising winner but with all the funds going to development an investor would currently have $0 in profits.

There have been thousands of indie games created, most of which never turn a profit.

The odds of doing better than with an S&P 500 fund are so low that you're probably better off with lottery tickets.

KickStarter works just fine as patronage. You give them $5-50, they work to build a game that would not exist without your help. The point of your patronage is for the game to (hopefully) exist so that you can play it.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,506
2,126
126
i want to go back in time and buy for $10.000 a one-percent stake in Minecraft.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I originally thought kickstarter was about sponsoring games and then getting a share of the profits.
 

Jodell88

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
9,491
42
91
Tim Schafer is involved so that's an automatic red flag to me. He has shown that he cannot manage money at all.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
Considering that 80% of all game projects fail or lose money, I certainly will not get involved.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
I think something like 8 or 9 out of every 10 game projects actually make it to market, and even then a fair few don't ever turn a profit, it's a very tough market which is why when we see a winning formula like CoD it gets abused no end until everyone is sick of it.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Also, for some of the successful KS like Shadowrun Returns, instead of sending me a check for $1.06 they put the money into improving the game content in follow-up releases, like the free director's cut update to Dragonfall. I'd rather have the better game than the dollar.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
As someone who has looked at various type of funds/funding in various companies to a degree, (equity and non-equity) one of which was actually a game fund, I have this to say: The fees they are charging are absurdly high. 5% of all money raised and 5% of all game revenues is way higher than most things I've seen, although they usually have performance fees.
Most funds will charge more like 2 or 3% of all funds raised and then another 2 or 3% each year of the funding, plus a performance fee based on how much money they end up making. I would assume they are forgoing a performance fee and instead just taking a higher cut of funds plus revenue.
That's the fund manager's costs/revenues, and they typically will pay for all the associated costs of considering the investments such as hiring the relevant people out of the money raised for the investment as well, e.g. you say "we will invest $1m in your game" and of that $1m, $900k goes to the developer and the other $100k ends up being legal costs, admin costs, specialist costs etc. That means this might end up "costing" more for a developer than a Kickstarter type deal, because they have to pay all these other costs of setting things up.

They are basically charging double the market sort of rate, although if they don't have any performance fee that might not be so bad.

Most funds, sensibly, spread their risk. The gaming fund I have seen had its risk spread by platform and game type. Some were licensed titles from well known publishers on multiple platforms (e.g. consoles + PC), some were mobile only games, some were casual games "puzzle adventure" games sold on places like Big Fish (if you have ever heard of them). All other funds do the same.
I would assume that anyone thinking of investing in this sort of thing would also hopefully do the same and only put some of their money into it.

Then in terms of getting money, your return on investment only happens if the game makes enough money to cover its costs. You put in your money to pay the developer, and then pay the lawyers and everyone else, and that's your total game funding. When you've made back your money, in a fund you will usually get a set proportion of the money above your recouped investment (e.g. once you have 100% of your investment back, including all those other fees, you then get 30% of the rest of the revenue above your 100% investment). This can be structured in various ways.

Now, assuming they are offering equity in specific games, that means you will probably just have it structured so the developer gets its "equity share", the "manager" gets theirs, and investors get theirs.
E.g. the deemed contribution by the developer is 50%, deemed by investors is 50%, so they get 47.5% each, with Fig getting 5%. That's potentially a better deal for the developers that getting traditional non-equity funding. Assuming you make any profit on the game at all.

The real question is, why would a developer opt for this over something where they get to have their money up front through crowdfunding, but without having to give away any residual profits? It doesn't seem like something as a developer I would want over a simple crowdfunded opportunity. It might be nice for the investors, but that's not going to get people to make use of it.
Now, since the current crop of participating entities are all owned by the same people as the Fig company, they aren't losing out too much, and if they get other people on board they get (mostly) cheap money from their 5% cuts in perpetuity, but that doesn't mean there's any reason anyone else as a developer would necessarily want to bother with it. If the investors don't get that much money from their investment in terms of share of profits, then what's the incentive to invest? I would see it being quite difficult to strike a balance. Plus, since you are only investing in one game, there's presumably no way for an investor to get their money back if a different product is successful. Equally, if you are the developer and you are making 3 games at once, you might end up prioritising the one in which you have the greates equity stake still compared to investors, and which will bring your company the most profits, and the expense of the other titles, so you have an incentive to put some titles on the backburner because they got more funding, rather than because they got less, unless there are strict controls and oversight of how funds and team resources and time are used, and milestones which are forced to be maintained.
Otherwise you are investing in a "game" but the money is going to a company which could use it for other things. That makes it quite difficult from an investor oversight perspective.

One thing I have seen is that if you are making a game with outside non-crowdfunded money, the investor will typically want a detailed plan and keep the right to withhold money if you don't hit milestones, or potentially take over the game development if you manage to screw up badly. Obviously if you haven't managed to Kickstarter your game, you might prefer this over other funding sources due to the control you retain over the game/your company and the security that you won't lose the IP if it does all go wrong, but since you now might have investors to answer to, there's a different kind of risk and different set of responsibilities.

Overall, I can't see it really getting that big simply because from a developer POV it doesn't seem like it would hold a significant amount of attraction given all the downsides it comes with.

Then there are further complications with things like who is going to sign off on the sharing of revenues. What happens if a publisher wants to get involved in the game? What if you equity fund a game and it comes out on PC, and then Sony or MS come along and say "we will pay $900k to port this to our console, please do it". The way the agreements are structured will also be a key concern in terms of who has the rights to the profits potentially if the platforms change/expand etc. Pitching this as something that any old person might want to invest in like they would do with shares seems pretty far off the mark given the fact you are "investing" in a specific game and not a company, which makes things more complicated, especially due to the way media rights seem to end up working in the gaming space.
 
Last edited: