Want to get Into Photography

[dmw16]

I am thinking of taking up photography and I had a few questions.

1. Are there any threads about which digital slr camera(s) to look at? I saw a sticky on how to select lenses for Canon cameras - does that imply Canon is the best way to go?

2. What about point & shoot vs dslr? I know you can't swap lenses on a P&S, but it seems like something that is easier to carry might give you more chances to get the cool shots. Are there P&S cameras that offer image quality and control on anywhere near the same level as a digital slr?

3. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. (not a question, I know )

Thanks.

 

[coxmaster]

Im new to photography also.. so we are sorta in the same boat. Obviously in a P&S you want control over the images. SLR is expensive, but will give the best control. I just recently bought a Canon S5 (not SLR) which gives me ALMOST all the control of an SLR. Its nice to have that P&S functionality sometimes.. plus its a little smaller

 

[CTho9305]

1. Are there any threads about which digital slr camera(s) to look at? I saw a sticky on how to select lenses for Canon cameras - does that imply Canon is the best way to go?

No. It doesn't really matter which brand you go with - among my friends, most just went Canon because others had gone Canon years ago and they could ask questions and try out lenses. That's why I went with Canon. If you don't already know people with SLRs who you'd do this stuff with, it doesn't really matter. Nikon and Canon are close enough that you'll be happy either way.

 

[dmw16]

Thanks. I would probably go with a Canon. So does it just come down to the best I can afford? It seems like understanding light, composition, and having an "eye" for a shot is more critical at the entry level range than having an expensive camera.

I actually have a Canon S3 already that I carry around most of the time.

 

[996GT2]

Keep your S3 IS. It is already a good superzoom camera. With the exception of certain situations (such as those requiring high ISO), it will produce similar images to a more expensive DSLR. Use it, learn about it, and then upgrade when you feel that you've outgrown your S3 IS.

The camera does not create a great image...the photographer does...give a professional photographer a $10 disposable camera and he will still be able to make some memorable and thought provoking shots with it. A DSLR is no better an average P&S if the photographer does not know how to use it.

 

[Deadtrees]

I suggest you get rid of S3 IS and get a cheapest possbile DSLR. You won't learn much with S3 IS because of its small sensor with fixed lens.
By using a dslr, you'll get more and clear ideas about DOF, AF speed, lenses, ISO, and so on.
While using it, you'll know what you want in a dslr system. Some go for high MP because the work they do require very high MP. Some go for AF speed and AF speed because they need that.
It all depends what you get yourself into. Don't ask questions at this stage because you'll eventually learn it while using it. Then, you can really decide on your camera.

Like 996GT2, Some may say that it's not the equipment but you skill but it just isn't the case. You do need good equipment in order to bring out good photographs. By saying 'good,' I'm saying that it should be good for your usage.
My good can be different than yours. Keep that in mind.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Deadtrees
Like 996GT2, Some may say that it's not the equipment but you skill but it just isn't the case. You do need good equipment in order to bring out good photographs. By saying 'good,' I'm saying that it should be good for your usage.
My good can be different than yours. Keep that in mind.

If you can't get good photos out of a P&S camera, you won't get good photos out of an SLR. Even a basic P&S has sufficient dynamic range, resolution, and overall image quality to get a person started. If the person has no eye for composition, not even a 1DSMkIII will save him. If the person has a great eye for composition, a 5+ year old P&S can get the job done.

Can a great camera open up some new opportunities? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean one will actually use them.

My own position is to stick with a P&S camera until you feel limited by it. If there are things you want to do that it cannot (shallow DOF, for example), then it may be time to move to a DSLR. But if you're just getting an expensive camera for "good pictures" without knowing why, it's not going to help much.

ZV

 

[ghostman]

So you've got one post for keeping the S3 and one post for ditching it. I'll go ahead and tip the scales a bit by adding that the S3 is a very capable camera. If you're not familiar with aperture, shutter speed, ISO, DOF, etc., then the S3 provides enough of the manual controls for you to learn all of that. Sooner or later, regardless of what camera or lens you use, you'll start to push the limits on your camera's capabilities. That's when you might consider upgrading to new hardware. If you haven't reached that point on the S3, then I see no point to upgrade (unless you just want to - playing with new equipment is fun). From a quick glance, the S3's deficiencies seems like it won't handle RAW and doesn't take an external flash. These are things that may come later in the learning process (though some seasoned photographers never deal with RAW or flash).

And you are right - photography is much more about lighting and composition than it is about hardware.

 

[dmw16]

Thanks for the tips. I read over the lens thread and one thing about the SLR that caught my attention was the ability to switch lens. I knew they could switch, but I mean in terms of the different options it gives you, especially because I am very interested in city scape and architecture photos.

The S3 can shoot in RAW mode using a "tweaked" firmware that is installed on the memory card. There is a wiki out there somewhere.

I may start shopping for a deal on an SLR body and a wide angle lens (and probably a basic one too). If I find one soon, great. If not, I'll keep using my S3.

As for the car analogy. I think that learning to drive a slow car fast is what can make you an excellent driver when you get into a 997GT2.

 

[joutlaw]

I bought a Canon Rebel XSi at launch and have really enjoyed it. It came with a 18-55mm EF-S lens in the kit... which is pretty decent. I picked up the "plastic fantastic" 50mm EF f/1.8 prime and have taken some great shots.

My wife and I are still learning, but overall its been well worth the money spent.

 

[dmw16]

Thanks for the tip. I am only allowed to buy one gizmo at a time and then I have to refill my "tech purchase" pile per the wife's request

So I just built a gaming PC. Now I need to rebuild my funds. What is a reasonable amount to expect to spend on a body or body and a basic 18-55 lens? Seems like the Rebels start around $500 in a regular retail store. Maybe cheaper online.

 

[996GT2]

I got a D70 body with 50mm f/1.8 for $300, but they typically run around $350-400 on eBay.

 

[coxmaster]

Originally posted by: dmw16
So I just built a gaming PC. Now I need to rebuild my funds.

I knew i recognized your name!! How is that E6550 you got from me workin for ya?

Like i said before, S5.. S3, basically the same. Just play around with it, get it figured out and you can get some REALLY GOOD shots.

 

[ghostman]

You could probably get a used Rebel XT for $3XX or so. The 18-55mm lens is about $70 used. The 50mm F/1.8 would probably be another $100.

As for the S3 RAW capability, I suppose you're referring to CHDK. I used it for my sister's 870IS, but found it extremely slow to write to disk. Of course, it was never intended to be used, so I suppose you can't complain.

Indeed, being able to switch lenses is a big plus for these DSLRs. If you're looking for super wide angle, the 10-22mm is a nice lens. But realize that each lens will probably cost more than the price of a new camera.

 

[dmw16]

Originally posted by: coxmaster

Originally posted by: dmw16
So I just built a gaming PC. Now I need to rebuild my funds.

I knew i recognized your name!! How is that E6550 you got from me workin for ya?

Like i said before, S5.. S3, basically the same. Just play around with it, get it figured out and you can get some REALLY GOOD shots.

Working out really well. Thanks. Got it going @ 3Ghz.

You could probably get a used Rebel XT for $3XX or so. The 18-55mm lens is about $70 used. The 50mm F/1.8 would probably be another $100. As for the S3 RAW capability, I suppose you're referring to CHDK. I used it for my sister's 870IS, but found it extremely slow to write to disk. Of course, it was never intended to be used, so I suppose you can't complain. Indeed, being able to switch lenses is a big plus for these DSLRs. If you're looking for super wide angle, the 10-22mm is a nice lens. But realize that each lens will probably cost more than the price of a new camera.

Yeah, I sorta figured

I'll look for a D70 or XT. Thanks.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: dmw16

Originally posted by: coxmaster

Originally posted by: dmw16
So I just built a gaming PC. Now I need to rebuild my funds.

I knew i recognized your name!! How is that E6550 you got from me workin for ya?

Like i said before, S5.. S3, basically the same. Just play around with it, get it figured out and you can get some REALLY GOOD shots.

Working out really well. Thanks. Got it going @ 3Ghz.

You could probably get a used Rebel XT for $3XX or so. The 18-55mm lens is about $70 used. The 50mm F/1.8 would probably be another $100. As for the S3 RAW capability, I suppose you're referring to CHDK. I used it for my sister's 870IS, but found it extremely slow to write to disk. Of course, it was never intended to be used, so I suppose you can't complain. Indeed, being able to switch lenses is a big plus for these DSLRs. If you're looking for super wide angle, the 10-22mm is a nice lens. But realize that each lens will probably cost more than the price of a new camera.

Yeah, I sorta figured

I'll look for a D70 or XT. Thanks.

One thing to note: The Canon 18-55mm kit lens that comes with the Rebel XT is known to produce very average photos.

I've heard the Nikon equivalent 18-55 AF-S is noticeably better, and the not too expensive Nikkor 18-55mm VR is another great buy at $120 brand new. With VR, you can shoot up to 3 f stops slower than with a normal lens without blur.

Also, keep in mind Canon's DSLRs are only compatible with the relatively new EF line of lenses, introduced in 1987. Nikon DSLRs still use the F mount that has been around for nearly 50 years, and many lenses from the 1970s will still work on newer Nikon DSLRs with no need for an adaptor. This means you can find many inexpensive prime lenses that perform well at a low cost (which is good if you're just starting out and don't want to shell out $1000 for a lens).

With Nikon, avoid the D40, D40x, and D60 if you want to use the 50mm f/1.8 Nikkor. These 3 cameras have no built in AF motor to save cost, so they will ONLY autofocus with newer AF-S lenses that have the motor built into the lens. The D50, D70, D80, D300, and all other cameras in Nikon's recent DSLR line have the autofocus motor, so they will work fine with older AF lenses that require the camera's motor to AF. These cameras will also work with AF-S lenses, so you have a much wider variety of lenses to choose from. Some of Nikon's very best performing lenses, such as the 50mm f/1.4, are AF, not AF-S.

 

[dmw16]

More good info...

I like the idea of being able to use older lenses.

As silly as it sounds, I was originally drawn to Canon because 1) I've had several in the past and like them and 2) the Canon lens sticky was awesome in terms of suggesting lenses for different applications.

I am sure there are tons of review sites out there for every kind of lens, but not knowing a lot, having it all there in front of me in one place was helpful.

Please keep in ideas and input coming.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: dmw16
More good info...

I like the idea of being able to use older lenses.

As silly as it sounds, I was originally drawn to Canon because 1) I've had several in the past and like them and 2) the Canon lens sticky was awesome in terms of suggesting lenses for different applications.

I am sure there are tons of review sites out there for every kind of lens, but not knowing a lot, having it all there in front of me in one place was helpful.

Please keep in ideas and input coming.

There is a Nikon lens sticky too: Here

I suggest you try both brands at a store to get a feel of how each brand's controls feel. I had a Canon Digital Rebel and Rebel XTi in the past, and I really like the Nikon D70's controls over those on the Canon cameras, especially the dual control dial setup.

On a Canon, to adjust aperture you have to hold down the AV button and then turn the control dial. On a Nikon, you just use the front control dial for aperture and the rear control dial for shutter; very clear and no fuss with holding down the AV button every time. That's just one of the reasons I switched to a D70.

If you do end up getting a Nikon, there aren't really many lenses you will need as a beginner. One lens that every DSLR owner should have is the 50mm f/1.8, which is inexpensive at around $80.

For normal use, the 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 VR is a good lightweight lens with image stabilization and very good optical performance (go check out Ken Rockwell's review on the 18-55 VR). For longer coverage, there's the 55-200mm VR or all in one 18-200mm VR.

If you decide to get more advanced (or if you just have tons of $$$ to blow on lenses), there is the Tamron 17-50mm f2.8, Nikon 17-55mm f/2.8, Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8, Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, Nikon 50mm f/1.4D, along with a whole list of other Nikkor lenses.

Also keep in mind that older Nikkor lenses like the AI and AI-S models will work with newer Nikon DSLRs. Some of these lenses have really great optical performance at an excellent price. The only trade-off is that they are manual focus, but Nikon DSLRs have focus confirmation in MF mode so you won't be left in the dust if you're just starting to adjust to manually focusing shots.

See the Nikon lens sticky for the full list; I just detailed a few common choices here. And keep in mind that you should get what YOU like, not what some review told you to get. The best way is to go to a camera store and try out each brand. If you want to buy an older Canon/Nikon, the control setups are relatively similar to newer models on display at camera stores so it won't make too much of a difference.

 

[dmw16]

One thing I didn't see in the Nikon sticky was a wide angle lens. I have always had an interest in architecture so I think a wide angle lens would be a nice to have. Any thoughts on that.

Also, about the D70...that is a 6MP. Is there a similar option out there in an 8 or 10 MP that people seem to like? Clearly I have a lot of research still to do, but as long as people are willing to share I am happy to listen.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: dmw16
One thing I didn't see in the Nikon sticky was a wide angle lens. I have always had an interest in architecture so I think a wide angle lens would be a nice to have. Any thoughts on that.

Also, about the D70...that is a 6MP. Is there a similar option out there in an 8 or 10 MP that people seem to like? Clearly I have a lot of research still to do, but as long as people are willing to share I am happy to listen.

Megapixels is probably the single most overrated aspect of digital cameras today. More megapixels alone does NOT make a better camera; in fact, with manufacturers trying to cram more and more pixels onto a fixed size sensor, a very high pixel count can result in more image noise at higher ISO (which you need to shoot in low light without flash)

A 6 MP camera will let you print shots up to 13x17 or 16x20. Some have made great enlargements up to 30x40 with some post processing added. Now, the question you've got to ask yourself is...how often will you actually print beyond 8x10? If you plan to make poster-sized prints very often, then yes, a 10 MP camera might be right for you. In that case, you should seriously consider the Nikon D80/90, Canon 30/40D, and Rebel XTi/XSi (all of which cost much more than a D70).

Since you're just starting out, I don't think 6 MP is a barrier at all. In fact, Ken Rockwell (a pro photographer and Nikon reviewer) says he uses his 6 MP Nikon D40 most of the time.

Also, as far as wide angle lenses go...how wide do you want to go? Wide angle lenses are usually on the expensive side of things; pro level lenses like the AF-S Nikkor 12-24mm f/4 G DX. Mounted on an APS-C sensor camera like a D70, D80, or D300, this lens gives an effective 35mm equivalent focal range of 18-36mm, which is about as wide as you can go on an APS-C camera.

 

[dmw16]

More great info. And that is a good point about the megapixel ratings. I can't see myself doing anything over an 8x10 very often. In fact, it would only be a shot I LOVED that would even make it to paper.

What is a reasonable price to expect to pay for a D70?

 

[twistedlogic]

Originally posted by: 996GT2

With Nikon, avoid the D40, D40x, and D60 if you want to use the 50mm f/1.8 Nikkor.

Some of Nikon's very best performing lenses, such as the 50mm f/1.4, are AF, not AF-S.

Rumor has it that the Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 is being fitted with a motor and will be released in September. And in March of this year Sigma introduced the 50mm f/1.4 with HSM to compliment there current 30mm f/1.4 with HSM. So there are some primes to use with the D40,D40X,D60. There just not cheap like the 50mm f/1.8.

You could also make the argument that forcing the user to manually focus is a good technique to learn to be a photographer. For creative purposes the user could determine what he/she wants in focus or out-of-focus. And you could also argue that if you get really good at focusing, that your actually faster than Auto-focus.

 

[996GT2]

Originally posted by: dmw16
More great info. And that is a good point about the megapixel ratings. I can't see myself doing anything over an 8x10 very often. In fact, it would only be a shot I LOVED that would even make it to paper.

What is a reasonable price to expect to pay for a D70?

I got a pretty good deal on a basically mint condition D70 body (it was a wedding photographer's backup and was rarely used)...$300 for the body and 50mm f/1.8, plus a few accessories like a wireless remote.

If you search Craigslist, expect to pay in the range of $250-350 for a D70 body in good condition, and a little more for a slightly updated D70s body which has a 2" screen (vs 1.8"). The D70s is otherwise identical though.

As far as the lens goes, a 50mm f/1.8 should be around $75-100 depending on where you look, and the 18-55mm VR should run you around $120. Those are the 2 lenses I have now; the 50mm is an awesome portrait lens while the 18-55 VR is a great everyday use lens.

Like I said, if you have a lot of money to shell out and want the REALLY wide angle stuff, there is the Nikkor 12-24mm for nearly $1,000 or the Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8 for around $600. These lenses are about as wide as you can go without getting a full frame DSLR like a D700 or D3 (both of which cost much, much more than a D70).

I would suggest just getting the 18-55mm VR and learning how to compose and shoot properly before you shell out the big bucks for a lens like that though. In fact, the 18-55 might actually teach you a few things since it won't allow you to just squeeze every little thing into the picture (which can be distracting).

Oh and just for kicks HERE is a shot I took yesterday with my D70 and 50mm f/1.8 during lunch.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: dmw16
As silly as it sounds, I was originally drawn to Canon because 1) I've had several in the past and like them and 2) the Canon lens sticky was awesome in terms of suggesting lenses for different applications.

That's not silly at all. I wrote that post reflecting the way I thought when I started getting into photography with a digital SLR camera: I'm not buying gear and then finding out what situations it allows me to shoot within, I've got situations I want to shoot and want to know what gear I should get to do it. I think a lot of people think the same way.

Originally posted by: dmw16
One thing I didn't see in the Nikon sticky was a wide angle lens. I have always had an interest in architecture so I think a wide angle lens would be a nice to have. Any thoughts on that.

Also, about the D70...that is a 6MP. Is there a similar option out there in an 8 or 10 MP that people seem to like? Clearly I have a lot of research still to do, but as long as people are willing to share I am happy to listen.

My coworker and I each bought the Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM lens I mentioned in the Canon lens thread. I have a Canon EOS Digital Rebel XT, he has a Nikon D40. Same price, same optics - we're both very happy with the lens, though you have to acknowledge the fact that it's pretty singular in its purpose/use. You could go either way on this.

Originally posted by: 996GT2
On a Canon, to adjust aperture you have to hold down the AV button and then turn the control dial. On a Nikon, you just use the front control dial for aperture and the rear control dial for shutter; very clear and no fuss with holding down the AV button every time. That's just one of the reasons I switched to a D70.

This is a primary temptation for me to sell out and go over to Nikon. That'll never actually happen because I'm too invested in the Canon system at this point, but good lord do the ergonomics of our cameras need work. I played with a Nikon D200 on the weekend and changing settings quickly was a joy to do, compared with the Canon system. Arg. Anyone know if any of the newer cameras do aperture settings differently?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: 996GT2
On a Canon, to adjust aperture you have to hold down the AV button and then turn the control dial. On a Nikon, you just use the front control dial for aperture and the rear control dial for shutter; very clear and no fuss with holding down the AV button every time. That's just one of the reasons I switched to a D70.

This is a primary temptation for me to sell out and go over to Nikon. That'll never actually happen because I'm too invested in the Canon system at this point, but good lord do the ergonomics of our cameras need work. I played with a Nikon D200 on the weekend and changing settings quickly was a joy to do, compared with the Canon system. Arg. Anyone know if any of the newer cameras do aperture settings differently?

i don't understand what you two are talking about. a two-dial canon camera shifts aperture with the rear dial and shutter with the front dial. a D40 has to have a button pressed in combination with the dial to shift aperture in manual mode as well.