Walter Williams on School Vouchers

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
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The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the Cleveland, Ohio school voucher case, Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, that taxpayer funds that go to parents who might use the money to enroll their children in religious schools was constitutional. One need not be a rocket scientist to understand why. The Constitution's First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Devious and ignorant lawyers, judges and politicians exhibit little respect or understanding of the Framer's intent behind the First Amendment. England had an established church - the Church of England - supported by the taxpayers. Its members were given privileges that were denied to members of other congregations. The Framers were Englishmen and feared the creation of a similar state church in our country.

If state and local governments choose to finance education, and they give parents a voucher to be spent at schools of the parent's choosing, only an intellectual or a person with legal training will see that as government establishment of a state church - a Church of United States. With that kind of reasoning, food stamps would also violate the Constitution's "establishment of religion" clause. Why? Because people of the Jewish faith might use their food stamps for the purchase of kosher food and that too should be seen as the government establishing a state church. The same applies to those who'd give part of their Social Security check as their weekly church offering.

The opponents of vouchers and school choice First Amendment arguments have always been bogus. Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has held it as such, they will no doubt shift their focus to: "We must save public schools instead of draining money away for school choice." That too is bogus. Try a little math. Take Washington, D.C. that spends over $10,000 per student for education whose student achievement would be dead last if Mississippi chose to secede from the Union. Suppose Washington gave each parent even a $5,000 voucher, that wouldn't mean less money available per student. To the contrary, holding total education expenditures constant, it'd mean more money per student remaining in public schools.

School choice opponents are also dishonest when they speak of saving public schools. A Heritage Foundation survey found that 47 percent of House members and 51 percent of senators with school-age children enrolled them in private schools in 2001. Public school teachers enroll their children in private schools to a much greater extent than the general public, in some cities close to 50 percent. This also applies to the black elite. Jesse Jackson, for example, sent his son to Washington's most elite private school.

One particularly insidious argument of voucher opponents is that vouchers will "skim" away the more academically talented students whose parents want better and safer schools for them. That's a vision that's hideous and rotten to the core. It says that such students should be held hostage, unable to escape rotten schools and be academically destroyed, in the name of saving public schools at some distant, yet undetermined, unpromised date.

One of the strongest arguments in favor of educational vouchers and choice is: when a society decides to publicly finance a good or service, it doesn't follow that it must be publicly produced. We publicly finance F-16 fighter jets but there's no government F-16 fighter jet factory. That same principle applies to education. We can publicly finance education but where it's produced should be determined on the basis of economic efficiency: where can we get the biggest bang for the buck?

All the self-serving arguments of school choice opponents are bogus. Saving public education is not the same as, and may indeed be exactly the opposite to, saving children.
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Williams makes excellent arguments. It's very hard to argue with the stats about Congress and public school teachers enrolling their own kids in private schools.

Makes me wonder if part of the reason powerful people object to vouchers is so that their own precious kids aren't "polluted" by the kids of "those other people".
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
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Walter Williams is brilliant. I especially enjoyed the Jab at Mississippi - all that Casino money going to education sure hasn't solved the problem.

Education isn't about money. US students were, overall, better educated back in the day when schools were dirt poor. Spend some time around local schools and you will see amazing waste of money and resources.

School Vouchers are about Personal Liberty. The empowerment of the poor. The reason that most of the voucher money has gone to religious schools is that these are the only school that would accept vouchers as 100% of the tuition.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Wow, Dr Williams made all the same arguments I did. Great mind think alike, I guess :)

Though, I had no idea some public school systems were spending $10,000 a year per student. I had guessed $5000, but that was from knowledge 10 or so years old. Boy, talk about diminishing returns. I want a refund. :disgust:
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Wow, Williams made all the same arguments I did. Great mind think alike, I guess :)

Though, I had no idea some public school systems were spending $10,000 a year per student. I had guessed $5000, but that was from knowledge 10 or so years old. Boy, talk about diminishing returns. I want a refund. :disgust:

The DC school system has been used as an example in these arguments for years for precisely this reason. For years they have had one of the highest per pupil expenditures in the nation yet always rank near or at the bottom in school rankings.
 
Jan 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: tm37
Link

The opponents of vouchers and school choice First Amendment arguments have always been bogus. Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has held it as such, they will no doubt shift their focus to: "We must save public schools instead of draining money away for school choice." That too is bogus. Try a little math. Take Washington, D.C. that spends over $10,000 per student for education whose student achievement would be dead last if Mississippi chose to secede from the Union. Suppose Washington gave each parent even a $5,000 voucher, that wouldn't mean less money available per student. To the contrary, holding total education expenditures constant, it'd mean more money per student remaining in public schools.

This point is kinda glossy. Schools are paid per student. So, a school who gets paid 10k/student will have a budget of:

1000 students --> 10 million dollars
750 students --> 7.5 million dollars

So there will be an immediate effect on schools. However, the district, would have a surplus of $5,000 (using his example) per student who vouched at a private school. I have no Idea where that money would go. Hopefully it would go to hiring more teachers, but I won't believe it until I see it.

My feeling is that we shouldn't go overboard instituting voucher programs across the country until we know the effects. There are a few cities who are already using vouchers. Lets watch and learn from them, before we start rebuilding our education system.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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Originally posted by: yamahaXS
Originally posted by: tm37
Link

The opponents of vouchers and school choice First Amendment arguments have always been bogus. Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has held it as such, they will no doubt shift their focus to: "We must save public schools instead of draining money away for school choice." That too is bogus. Try a little math. Take Washington, D.C. that spends over $10,000 per student for education whose student achievement would be dead last if Mississippi chose to secede from the Union. Suppose Washington gave each parent even a $5,000 voucher, that wouldn't mean less money available per student. To the contrary, holding total education expenditures constant, it'd mean more money per student remaining in public schools.

This point is kinda glossy. Schools are paid per student. So, a school who gets paid 10k/student will have a budget of:

1000 students --> 10 million dollars
750 students --> 7.5 million dollars

So there will be an immediate effect on schools. However, the district, would have a surplus of $5,000 (using his example) per student who vouched at a private school. I have no Idea where that money would go. Hopefully it would go to hiring more teachers, but I won't believe it until I see it.

My feeling is that we shouldn't go overboard instituting voucher programs across the country until we know the effects. There are a few cities who are already using vouchers. Lets watch and learn from them, before we start rebuilding our education system.

In terms of the individual school you are correct however the school board will have the same budget available to it as before absent some action by local government to curtail funding based on enrollment. Absent that and given current revenue if you have less students in any school and the same pool of cash minus the 50% per student you lose for each student that goes the voucher route you would still have more in the pool to divide among the remaining students.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
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I have never understood why they are fighting the voucher issue with the establishment clause, it is too closed minded, look at the real evil behind vouchers: by taking funding away from public schools it further degrades the educational system, besides how is it fair that my parents shell out 10 grand a year for each of their children to attend private school, while still paying for other children to attend public school (taxes) and then the government turns around and says that these kids can use my parents money to go to a private school? There are many more arguments against this, I am too lazy at the moment to type them out, but my main thought on this issue was why they always brought up the religious issue, it isn't a matter of state endorsement of religion, but rather a short sighted quick fix to the educational dilemma.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: yamahaXS
Originally posted by: tm37
Link

The opponents of vouchers and school choice First Amendment arguments have always been bogus. Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has held it as such, they will no doubt shift their focus to: "We must save public schools instead of draining money away for school choice." That too is bogus. Try a little math. Take Washington, D.C. that spends over $10,000 per student for education whose student achievement would be dead last if Mississippi chose to secede from the Union. Suppose Washington gave each parent even a $5,000 voucher, that wouldn't mean less money available per student. To the contrary, holding total education expenditures constant, it'd mean more money per student remaining in public schools.

This point is kinda glossy. Schools are paid per student. So, a school who gets paid 10k/student will have a budget of:

1000 students --> 10 million dollars
750 students --> 7.5 million dollars

So there will be an immediate effect on schools. However, the district, would have a surplus of $5,000 (using his example) per student who vouched at a private school. I have no Idea where that money would go. Hopefully it would go to hiring more teachers, but I won't believe it until I see it.

My feeling is that we shouldn't go overboard instituting voucher programs across the country until we know the effects. There are a few cities who are already using vouchers. Lets watch and learn from them, before we start rebuilding our education system.
Where did he get those figures? 10 thousand dollars per student? In Florida it is like 3 thousand (granted we are ranked very low nationally in terms of education)
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: DaiShan
I have never understood why they are fighting the voucher issue with the establishment clause, it is too closed minded, look at the real evil behind vouchers: by taking funding away from public schools it further degrades the educational system, besides how is it fair that my parents shell out 10 grand a year for each of their children to attend private school, while still paying for other children to attend public school (taxes) and then the government turns around and says that these kids can use my parents money to go to a private school? There are many more arguments against this, I am too lazy at the moment to type them out, but my main thought on this issue was why they always brought up the religious issue, it isn't a matter of state endorsement of religion, but rather a short sighted quick fix to the educational dilemma.

The simplistic argument that it takes money from the schools was first shattered by me, and then by Dr Williams in this article. Maybe you should have read the article? The schools will lose NO MONEY per student.

And if your parents have kids in private school, they can more than likely get vouchers.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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Please everyone, it's Dr. Walter Williams. Give the man his due.

DaiShan, the good doctor is not one of the most highly decorated and respected economists in this country because he's an idiot. His arguments are sound and with merit, unlike yours that are based on feeling: "rather a short sighted quick fix to the educational dilemma."
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
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Setting aside all the politics the bottom line for me is that parents get one shot at giving their children the best education they can afford. If vouchers can help them with this then I am all for them. All the theory about public schools and their value pales if you are a parent and your kid is stuck in a school that you know is not giving your child the best education possible because the NEA/education establishment chooses to perform grand 18 year experiments with your child.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: CPA
Please everyone, it's Dr. Walter Williams. Give the man his due.

Sorry, I've fixed my posts. Gawd help us if we piss off the CPAs. They might screw up our tax returns and get us audited :Q ;)

 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
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Clearly, the way vouchers are setup allows it to keep from being unconstitutional. Its not like the money is given directly to a private school, or forced to go to one. The question isnt whether or not it is constitutional, its whether or not its a good thing.

Schools run on economies of scale, when children are pulled out, and their money is pulled out as well, the school suffers. When the schools lose they money and gradually slide downwards, there will be larger support for pulling kids out. You pull enough out and the system collapses, and then we are in some serious trouble. Im not being "dishonest" about saving public schools either, for we know that comparing public schools or most private schools to "elite private schools" is simply unfair.

Of course, the largest arguement is that public school is a public concern. Eisenhower articulated this 50 years ago. It's still true now. Public schools don't, or shouldn't, exist for the benfit of parents who want to educate their children. It's a matter of civic survival that we educate the next generation of Americans. That is precisely why everyone pays taxes for schools, not just parents. This is very much like the military in that it is a public concern. Everyone recieves the benefits of the military as they do public education, even if they dont see it directly. Choosing to "remove" yourself from either doesnt really remove yourself. You can get your own bodyguard, or your own private school. You still carry the larger benefit that society as a whole gains through public education and a public military.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: HendrixFan
Clearly, the way vouchers are setup allows it to keep from being unconstitutional. Its not like the money is given directly to a private school, or forced to go to one. The question isnt whether or not it is constitutional, its whether or not its a good thing.

Schools run on economies of scale, when children are pulled out, and their money is pulled out as well, the school suffers. When the schools lose they money and gradually slide downwards, there will be larger support for pulling kids out. You pull enough out and the system collapses, and then we are in some serious trouble. Im not being "dishonest" about saving public schools either, for we know that comparing public schools or most private schools to "elite private schools" is simply unfair.

Of course, the largest arguement is that public school is a public concern. Eisenhower articulated this 50 years ago. It's still true now. Public schools don't, or shouldn't, exist for the benfit of parents who want to educate their children. It's a matter of civic survival that we educate the next generation of Americans. That is precisely why everyone pays taxes for schools, not just parents. This is very much like the military in that it is a public concern. Everyone recieves the benefits of the military as they do public education, even if they dont see it directly. Choosing to "remove" yourself from either doesnt really remove yourself. You can get your own bodyguard, or your own private school. You still carry the larger benefit that society as a whole gains through public education and a public military.

And if they are not educating your children then what? This is not a new phenomena it has been going on for 40 years now yet all the indicators say the problem is getting worse. At what point is a parent no longer obligated to stand around and allow their child to continue to be a pawn in an ideological war? It is not like we don't really know how to teach children the basic skills everyone should have to function in society. All you need to do is look at what the expectations were to graduate 6th grade in 1900 versus what is expected today. Technology is great but the foundation it is built on is unchanged. Children graduating the 6th grade should be competent in basic reading , writing, and arithmetic. They should have a firm grasp of the history of their country as well as knowledge of world geography and western civilization and their place in it. Why is it we were able to teach this to children up until the time when it became fashionable to try new educational theories in the classroom? What exactly have we gotten from all the vast increase in expenditure on public schools? From what I see it is mostly an increase in the number of bureaucrats involved and making a living off the educational system rather than a genuine increase in the number and quality of teachers.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
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I dont know if you know this or not, but the US education system is one of the best in the world. Our public universities are certainly the best in the world. When this notion of a large scale failure in public education started I really dont know. Hell, I went to an "inner city" public high school in Texas (not considered a good public school system in our state, we had Bush as governer you know) and I was able to come out shining. I certainly had full grasp of anything they threw at me, as did a good number of my peers. I felt that the determining factor in how much a student learned, as opposed to the grades they got which werent necessarily indicative of their knowledge, was whether or not the student wanted to learn. I found that alot of kids in the "honors" classes were they because the parent wanted them to be there. They got the grades, went on to college, but didnt learn. You know, 3.7 GPA and a 870 on their SATs or something. Copying was rampant, as kids were trying to get grades for their parents, not learn for themselves. I think that has much more to do with parenting than anything.

As an aside, I think arithmetic is horrible to try and teach kids early on. Set theory should come first, and then later arithmetic should be introduced. But then maybe Im just being ideological... ;)
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
21,019
156
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I don't dispute that the US system is one of the best in the world. However, the gap is closing not because the other countries are doing better, but because we are going backwards.

Here's some questions (I cut some from the list) from an 8th grade final exam (Salina, KS) from 1895. If we're doing better now, these should be a breeze. Remember, they still had four more years of school ahead just to finish high school. I doubt there is 1 in 10,000 8th graders who could answer all of these today.

GRAMMAR (Time: 60 minutes)
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
5. Define Case. Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

ARITHMETIC (Time: 75 minutes)
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?

U.S. HISTORY (Time: 45 minutes)
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607 1620 1800 1849 1865

ORTHOGRAPHY (Time: 60 minutes)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.

GEOGRAPHY (Time: 60 minutes)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan, Hermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
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The difference between the US and most other countries "ranked" above us is that we dont filter out kids. Most every country ahead of us has programs where the smart kids are directed onwards through school, and the rest are put in vocational/trade schools. Their scores are skewed because they dont sample all the students as the US does. Why do you think they send their kids over to the US for college if they can? Same with public schools back then. Few kids went to school past elementary, there was a large portion of the population that never even went to school. Again, you have to have similar samples to accurately compare data.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,089
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Originally posted by: HendrixFan
Clearly, the way vouchers are setup allows it to keep from being unconstitutional. Its not like the money is given directly to a private school, or forced to go to one. The question isnt whether or not it is constitutional, its whether or not its a good thing.

Schools run on economies of scale, when children are pulled out, and their money is pulled out as well, the school suffers. When the schools lose they money and gradually slide downwards, there will be larger support for pulling kids out. You pull enough out and the system collapses, and then we are in some serious trouble. Im not being "dishonest" about saving public schools either, for we know that comparing public schools or most private schools to "elite private schools" is simply unfair. .

You keep saying this, and pull up business school BS as an example, yet you cannot explain how private schools can operate, at lower cost, with better results on a small scale while public schools for some reason cannot. Economies of scale does not apply to education. Never has, never will. If anything, public schools are getting LESS done with MORE money than small private schools. Therefore your severely twisted "economies of scale" is actually working the other way.

Hendrix, instead of buying into the propaganda you've heard, try thinking about this objectively. If private schools can do everything better on a small scale, so can public schools. The only thing standing in the way is your bias.

Finally, think about this: If public school systems have to down size, the money they make on the sale from land when they close down surplus schools will be more than enough to build much better facilities.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,089
18,584
146
Originally posted by: HendrixFan
The difference between the US and most other countries "ranked" above us is that we dont filter out kids. Most every country ahead of us has programs where the smart kids are directed onwards through school, and the rest are put in vocational/trade schools. Their scores are skewed because they dont sample all the students as the US does. Why do you think they send their kids over to the US for college if they can? Same with public schools back then. Few kids went to school past elementary, there was a large portion of the population that never even went to school. Again, you have to have similar samples to accurately compare data.

Can you please provide proof of this?
 

Ly2n

Senior member
Dec 26, 2001
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I can only speak for the state that I live in (New York), but the state aid for education is based on the number of students in the school. State aid is the MAJOR funding for the schools. If students leave the public schools for private schools, the public schools will have less money. So that is a concern. I believe, I don't have any proof, that as the schools get larger they get worse. Private schools are smaller and people get to know each other. Maybe we need to de-centralize our school systems to a point where they are managable. One other point about education, when the parents are involved the students do better. That has been proven over and over. Parents of students in private schools usually are more involved. Lynn
 

thebestMAX

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
7,503
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One of the few Talk Show hosts I really respect!

Where is Nefrodite ranting on about him because he is a "shudder" Republican.

Oh, I guess she will not be present here because it would not be PC to say something against a Black Politician.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,089
18,584
146
Originally posted by: Ly2n
I can only speak for the state that I live in (New York), but the state aid for education is based on the number of students in the school. State aid is the MAJOR funding for the schools. If students leave the public schools for private schools, the public schools will have less money. So that is a concern. I believe, I don't have any proof, that as the schools get larger they get worse. Private schools are smaller and people get to know each other. Maybe we need to de-centralize our school systems to a point where they are managable. One other point about education, when the parents are involved the students do better. That has been proven over and over. Parents of students in private schools usually are more involved. Lynn

If they get a set amount per student, and they have fewer students, how are they getting less money per student?

If I pay you $10 per wombat to take care of ten wombats, then take away five wombats and the funding for those five wombats, you still get $10 per wombat. The key here is how much funding per wombat, not the total funding overall.

So please tell me how schools will get less funding, if they get the same amount per student???
 
Jan 18, 2001
14,465
1
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Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: yamahaXS
Originally posted by: tm37
Link

The opponents of vouchers and school choice First Amendment arguments have always been bogus. Now that the U.S. Supreme Court has held it as such, they will no doubt shift their focus to: "We must save public schools instead of draining money away for school choice." That too is bogus. Try a little math. Take Washington, D.C. that spends over $10,000 per student for education whose student achievement would be dead last if Mississippi chose to secede from the Union. Suppose Washington gave each parent even a $5,000 voucher, that wouldn't mean less money available per student. To the contrary, holding total education expenditures constant, it'd mean more money per student remaining in public schools.



This point is kinda glossy. Schools are paid per student. So, a school who gets paid 10k/student will have a budget of:

1000 students --> 10 million dollars
750 students --> 7.5 million dollars

So there will be an immediate effect on schools. However, the district, would have a surplus of $5,000 (using his example) per student who vouched at a private school. I have no Idea where that money would go. Hopefully it would go to hiring more teachers, but I won't believe it until I see it.

My feeling is that we shouldn't go overboard instituting voucher programs across the country until we know the effects. There are a few cities who are already using vouchers. Lets watch and learn from them, before we start rebuilding our education system.

In terms of the individual school you are correct however the school board will have the same budget available to it as before absent some action by local government to curtail funding based on enrollment. Absent that and given current revenue if you have less students in any school and the same pool of cash minus the 50% per student you lose for each student that goes the voucher route you would still have more in the pool to divide among the remaining students.

Yep. You just restated Williams arguement without addressing my point at all which was that the cause and effect of a school voucher system might be unpredictable.

Going back to my original numbers, a school that has to make up a 2.5 million deficit has few options if any. Teachers in DC probably make 60ish a year, so that school would have to cut more than just staff. Schools live on very thin margins. Likely, the result would be that the district would bail out schools, keeping them operational for at least a while. My point is, that its easy to say that vouchers should cost less money, but its another thing all together to actually realize any of those savings.