Walmart loses major union case. :)

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: rectifire
"The people who helped tremendously in the downfall of US auto companies and airlines via threats of strikes by their uniformed followers."

"The people who have very wealthy leaders who use the dues of their uniformed followers to support their own personal political agendas."

"The people who allow substandard work to be compensated at a super-standard rate."



In situations as touchy as this one, the practical thing to do is look at the overall picture. Overall, have unions helped or hurt our American society and way of life? If you ask me, they have overall been a great beneficial influence. Nobody has denied the things I stated in an earlier post. This is because they cannot deny them....they are facts. The fact is that unions have been at the very heart of shaping each and every work benefit that you take for granted today. However, now that these benefits have become somewhat standardized in the workplace, some people wish to do away with the unions because they feel they are not necessary anymore. They take for granted the benefits that they currently enjoy, giving no thought or reason to how hard people have fought and even died so that they could enjoy such benefits. All they see in a union is a organization that takes a small part of their paycheck. They resent this in a way comparable to taxes. They imagine that they see no tangible benefits from a union, when in truth the benefits are all around them.

The above quotes by fuzzy bee are the same old rhetoric repeated over and over by anti-union forces. Let's make a simple analogy regarding fuzzy's quotes. Let's take these quotes and apply them to the US government instead of unions.

"The people who helped tremendously in the downfall of US auto companies and airlines via threats of strikes by their uniformed followers."

As many may know, thousands of corporations have closed their operations in the USA and moved overseas. They did this to avoid paying increased US taxes imposed by the US government of course. Sounds very much like the US government itself is itself helping to contribute to the downfall of US companies.

"The people who have very wealthy leaders who use the dues of their uniformed followers to support their own personal political agendas."

This statement could very well be applied to the majority of US government political leaders out there. All you would have to do is change where it says "dues" to "contributions." Enough said.

"The people who allow substandard work to be compensated at a super-standard rate."

Again, this statement could very well be applied to many branches of the US government. Red tape seems to reign supreme, and little work gets accomplished for the huge budgets of some government agencies.


Well then, if all these things can be applied to the US government, why not just say that we don't need government anymore. It has outlived it's usefulness and we don't need it anymore. Maybe we should even start to hate the government.

This is akin to the anarchists who drive on public roads and freeways, all the while calling for the destruction of the government since they believe it brings them no tangible benefits. Yet all the while, proof that government works is under their own two feet or the four tires of their car.

What I am trying to say about the unions (and the government) is that even though they have their many faults, in the end it works out on the plus side for the vast majority of us Americans.

That's BS and you know it. the US has the lowest taxation of any Industrialized nation in the world.

you also have completely ignored my assertions that Unions exercise monopoly power and the best way to change that would be to require multiple unions per industry. using your very own argument, since you haven't denied it, it must be true.

just because something was of use in the past DOES not mean that it should be the same in the future. times change.

 

[brunswickite]

I worked at Walmart 2 summers, they sqeeze every ounce of work out of you. bastards.
I hate that godforsaken place

 

[alkemyst]

oh yeah unions, I want to be a high school drop out and make $40-50+ per hour to screw in two bolts on an assembly line.

Unions are great for the leaders of them....let's see, hmmm, how can I get rich? oh wait here's a million workers working at minimum wage doing a minimal job...if I could get each one of these morons to even send me a dollar each then I'd be rich.

ponder ponder ponder....what if I make them an organized mob and tell them if they pay me I will let them call their collective poor and stupid masses a UNION....and I will organize it...in return I will have them complain and guarantee if they picket and beat the crap out of anyone who doesn't, they will eventually get raises, each and everyone of them. yeah who would turn down a guaranteed raise...this is the ticket to my riches!!!!

Now these morons have no idea that their raises will cause the price of the goods they make to go up almost...but hey I will just raise union dues and make my bank account adjust just fine and they can picket again and start the cycle over....now I need to work on the FDIC and their stupid limits on insuring each account I have for such a low amount, opening up all these accounts to stick my money is cutting into my tanning and beer drinking time....

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: rectifire
"The people who helped tremendously in the downfall of US auto companies and airlines via threats of strikes by their uniformed followers."

"The people who have very wealthy leaders who use the dues of their uniformed followers to support their own personal political agendas."

"The people who allow substandard work to be compensated at a super-standard rate."



In situations as touchy as this one, the practical thing to do is look at the overall picture. Overall, have unions helped or hurt our American society and way of life? If you ask me, they have overall been a great beneficial influence. Nobody has denied the things I stated in an earlier post. This is because they cannot deny them....they are facts. The fact is that unions have been at the very heart of shaping each and every work benefit that you take for granted today. However, now that these benefits have become somewhat standardized in the workplace, some people wish to do away with the unions because they feel they are not necessary anymore. They take for granted the benefits that they currently enjoy, giving no thought or reason to how hard people have fought and even died so that they could enjoy such benefits. All they see in a union is a organization that takes a small part of their paycheck. They resent this in a way comparable to taxes. They imagine that they see no tangible benefits from a union, when in truth the benefits are all around them.

The above quotes by fuzzy bee are the same old rhetoric repeated over and over by anti-union forces. Let's make a simple analogy regarding fuzzy's quotes. Let's take these quotes and apply them to the US government instead of unions.

"The people who helped tremendously in the downfall of US auto companies and airlines via threats of strikes by their uniformed followers."

As many may know, thousands of corporations have closed their operations in the USA and moved overseas. They did this to avoid paying increased US taxes imposed by the US government of course. Sounds very much like the US government itself is itself helping to contribute to the downfall of US companies.

"The people who have very wealthy leaders who use the dues of their uniformed followers to support their own personal political agendas."

This statement could very well be applied to the majority of US government political leaders out there. All you would have to do is change where it says "dues" to "contributions." Enough said.

"The people who allow substandard work to be compensated at a super-standard rate."

Again, this statement could very well be applied to many branches of the US government. Red tape seems to reign supreme, and little work gets accomplished for the huge budgets of some government agencies.


Well then, if all these things can be applied to the US government, why not just say that we don't need government anymore. It has outlived it's usefulness and we don't need it anymore. Maybe we should even start to hate the government.

This is akin to the anarchists who drive on public roads and freeways, all the while calling for the destruction of the government since they believe it brings them no tangible benefits. Yet all the while, proof that government works is under their own two feet or the four tires of their car.

What I am trying to say about the unions (and the government) is that even though they have their many faults, in the end it works out on the plus side for the vast majority of us Americans.

while i admit that your statements are correct, how can you not admit that mine are correct (and facts) as well? imho, trade unions are the only thing worth anything these days - they actually teach a skill (i.e., carpentry), so that both the union member and the companies or individuals that hire them benefit.

to address your points individually:

1) our taxes are low. wages are the reason they are moving overseas. wages that unions want to artificially inflate.

2) the difference here is the willingness to contribute. due union members have any say at all who their dues are sponsoring? no. it's up to the jimmy hoffa, jr, types to decide.

3) how many of these agencies are union houses? a lot of them. thanks for proving my point for me.

i recall when i worked at ups. during orientation, the management-types left the office and teamsters reps came in. they essentially just handed out yellow dogs. i asked them if i needed to fill it out. "you do if you want to be in the union" was the reply. once again, i asked them if i *had* to fill it out. the reply, once again - "you do if you want to be in the union." one last time - do i have to fill this out? "just fill out the information at the top, but don't sign it. ttbomk, i was the only person on my shift (out of ~350) that wasn't union. the first payday, i received my whole paycheck. i listened to all of the bitching from everybody about how they only got 1/2 of their paycheck - the subsequent weeks were similar. my question? what did everybody else get for their "dues"? the answer, simply, is nothing.

if unions due such a good job, how come it costs so much to be in them? where do all of their administrative fees go? oh, yeah - they go to fatten the pockets of politicians.

 

[0roo0roo]

those who blame the downfall of the us automakers on unions... how do you explain the fact that they still can build half decent trucks? the truck division is non union? i think not.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: rectifire
"The people who helped tremendously in the downfall of US auto companies and airlines via threats of strikes by their uniformed followers."

"The people who have very wealthy leaders who use the dues of their uniformed followers to support their own personal political agendas."

"The people who allow substandard work to be compensated at a super-standard rate."



In situations as touchy as this one, the practical thing to do is look at the overall picture. Overall, have unions helped or hurt our American society and way of life? If you ask me, they have overall been a great beneficial influence. Nobody has denied the things I stated in an earlier post. This is because they cannot deny them....they are facts. The fact is that unions have been at the very heart of shaping each and every work benefit that you take for granted today. However, now that these benefits have become somewhat standardized in the workplace, some people wish to do away with the unions because they feel they are not necessary anymore. They take for granted the benefits that they currently enjoy, giving no thought or reason to how hard people have fought and even died so that they could enjoy such benefits. All they see in a union is a organization that takes a small part of their paycheck. They resent this in a way comparable to taxes. They imagine that they see no tangible benefits from a union, when in truth the benefits are all around them.

The above quotes by fuzzy bee are the same old rhetoric repeated over and over by anti-union forces. Let's make a simple analogy regarding fuzzy's quotes. Let's take these quotes and apply them to the US government instead of unions.

"The people who helped tremendously in the downfall of US auto companies and airlines via threats of strikes by their uniformed followers."

As many may know, thousands of corporations have closed their operations in the USA and moved overseas. They did this to avoid paying increased US taxes imposed by the US government of course. Sounds very much like the US government itself is itself helping to contribute to the downfall of US companies.

"The people who have very wealthy leaders who use the dues of their uniformed followers to support their own personal political agendas."

This statement could very well be applied to the majority of US government political leaders out there. All you would have to do is change where it says "dues" to "contributions." Enough said.

"The people who allow substandard work to be compensated at a super-standard rate."

Again, this statement could very well be applied to many branches of the US government. Red tape seems to reign supreme, and little work gets accomplished for the huge budgets of some government agencies.


Well then, if all these things can be applied to the US government, why not just say that we don't need government anymore. It has outlived it's usefulness and we don't need it anymore. Maybe we should even start to hate the government.

This is akin to the anarchists who drive on public roads and freeways, all the while calling for the destruction of the government since they believe it brings them no tangible benefits. Yet all the while, proof that government works is under their own two feet or the four tires of their car.

What I am trying to say about the unions (and the government) is that even though they have their many faults, in the end it works out on the plus side for the vast majority of us Americans.

I will agree that union were at onme time very usefull but all to often the union stops doing what is best for he worker and does what is best for the UNION. the recent dockworker strike is a prime example of this.

Take a look at the teachers union it is one of the most misguided unions in the country.

My sister wanted to be a teacher. she went to college and got all the classes that were needed. By the time she had finished there were NEW classes that she needed to take. She did the next year there were new classes. after three years of chasing requirements she gave up. Now the union had come up with theese requirements because we need to insure that out teachers are qualified. How ever if you were all ready a teacher you did not need theese requirements. At the same time the union was fighting to get smaller class sizes in california. Of course this is to improve education. Riverside county was hit especially hard. They couldn't hire any new teachers and of course they needed alot more due to requirements on class size. SO now you have a "shortage" of "qualified techers" to teach. Which means of course that you should apy thoose you have MORE so as you will not lose them. OF course the teachers got pretty sizable raises. THis was due to teachers being in short demand. One of my best freinds left California after witnessing this. He was an administrator at a california school.

Now lets look to fedco one of the first "membership" stores ever.

When times got tough it was impossible to even send someone home early due to the union contract. If you were hired to work PART IME for say 20 hours a week they had to pay you for 20 hours. Non union stores of course will let people go home if sales are down. THey will cut hours to insure that people will have a job later. I listen to a few freinds laughing about how "cool" it was to get paid for doing nothing and how they made 20% more than people doing the same thing at target and K-Mart. They never had to worry about getting their hours cut OR getting layed off. The teamsters had literally taken over FedCo. I don't know how many of them are laughing now.

Northwest airlines is my ALL TIME FAVORITE example of Union power run amuck. THe Machanics union for northwest actually got a NO LAYOFF clause put into the contract (unless there was a war) because NWA was retiring some old planes and buying new. NWA ended up being OVER STAFFED by over 30% imagine over one third your workforce doing nothing. at 20-45 dollars an hour that adds up pretty high. Had it not been for the war in Iraq NWA might have a very short life span.

Qwest's union contract is up for renewal and they are raising the medical co pay to $15 dollars per visit and $10 for perscription drugs. The employees PAY NOTHING for this medical benifit and they get aroung 25 bucks an hour here in MN. Now why is the union fighting over 5 bucks per visit? Because they can and Qwest can be hled over the barrel. Of course they are also looking for a nice raise when many people with the same level of education are looking for work. Pay raises should be payed IF there is a huge profit AND there is a risk of losing your people to the competior. Of course with qwest neither is the case.

Union workers get paid more have better benifits and more power than non- union workers. THey do give up there abilty to be judged by what they do as an individual but hey that the breaks. I great worker will rarely benifit from a union where as a sub par employee always will.

Union are no longer needed for two compelling reasons.

1. most of the needed things they have gotten enacted are NOW LAW. this includes the 40 hour work week and overtime.
2. people have more options then they did before. We have become a mobile society and people move around alot more than they did before. It doen't take much to uproot and move to another state. WIth phones and affordable airtravel people are much more willing to move further from their family or "hometown" People in my father's generation rarely moved yet people in my generation do all the time. IN my office that I had at my last job, out of 5 techs only one was "native" to the area. no longer are people taking one job and working there for an entire career.

Unions today do what is best for the union or union leadership and rarely what is good for the individual.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: thedarkwolf

Originally posted by: AnyMal
You obviously never worked for a company that has unionized workforce. Let me make it simple. Union demands that company pays outrageous wages and benefits for unskilled and untrained labor. The companies are faced with two choices: either they give in, thus severely undercutting their bottom line, or they fold and move south of the border. Do you think that's pro free-market?

I worked for Kroger(grocery store chain) and it was union and I can tell you that wasn't true there. All the union did for me was take money out of every one of my paychecks. After 5 years I made around 75 cents over minimum wage and had no benefits other than a weeks payed vacation. The only people that got anything from the union were the full time people and to get around that Krogers simply didn't hire full time people unless they had too. We did have lots of 36 hour a week part timers though.

i worked over the summer at a grocery store. I had to sign up for the union. I still made minimum wage PLUS they took out for dues and such!

I see NO need for a Union in a grocery store. a union should be used in skilled labor not somethinga crack whore can do. The union here was a waste. Not only did they take money out of your check but they wouldnt help if you was harresed or anything. such a waste.

 

[AgentBehemoth]

Originally posted by: fuzzy beei recall when i worked at ups. during orientation, the management-types left the office and teamsters reps came in. they essentially just handed out yellow dogs. i asked them if i needed to fill it out. "you do if you want to be in the union" was the reply. once again, i asked them if i *had* to fill it out. the reply, once again - "you do if you want to be in the union." one last time - do i have to fill this out? "just fill out the information at the top, but don't sign it. ttbomk, i was the only person on my shift (out of ~350) that wasn't union. the first payday, i received my whole paycheck. i listened to all of the bitching from everybody about how they only got 1/2 of their paycheck - the subsequent weeks were similar. my question? what did everybody else get for their "dues"? the answer, simply, is nothing.

if unions due such a good job, how come it costs so much to be in them? where do all of their administrative fees go? oh, yeah - they go to fatten the pockets of politicians.

First let me say that if you're implying that the union dues at UPS is half of their checks then please step away from the crack pipe and let someone else take a hit cause you're apparently bogarting it!
Now a couple of things signing that union card would have gotten you is protection from being fired cause that @sshole they brought in from that center in NY(no offense to any damn yankees) that just doesn't like you for whatever reason. Or because that little computer geek that didn't like what time you brought his schitt calls and complains and makes up some crap lie about you and your service.
Or when that shoddy packaged necklace falls out of the package on your truck and you find it and turn it in and some @sshole 2 months on the job manager says he knows you were trying to steal it(actually happened). Those are the times that signing that card would have prevented any of your co-workers from being fired, you on the other hand would have been looking for your next job.

Yeah unions are schitty sometimes but management at most companies make unions look like choir boys.

Now what no one has talked about here is the fact that the unions aren't just for one company and their members don't just work at one company. This was what got the workers at UPS shafted the last time the contract came up and that last idiot that was running the union(the one worse than Hoffa Jr.) had his way. I saw the contract offered by UPS and it was an awesome windfall for the UPS employees. A thou. or two the first year then a thou. the next and the next and good raises to go with it. Most of this was directed toward the full time employees of course. Continued great health benefits with a $10 co-pay and couple of dollars co-pay for prescripts.

The union that represents UPSs workers also has many small companies that they represent too and it was UPSs subsidizing of these smaller companies insurance that caused the workers at UPS to not get that deal cause the union wanted UPS to continue to pay for all these smaller companies insurance and instead of the great deal that those UPS workers was gonna get they got some measely raises and some part timers got to go full time faster than they might have. Period. No bonuses, no hefty raises. All because the union used the number of UPS employees, and UPSs need to have them continue to work to keep cheap insurance for companies unrelated to UPS.

Now even after having said all this I still don't think unions are bad I just think they do bad things at times. And that @sshole before Hoffa jr. was as crooked as they come, personally I think Hoffa jr. is doing OK.


Now I'm not going to question anyone heres intelligence cause it means nothing but I will say that none of you are employeed at a think tank and you can spout everything that some prof. told you but when it comes right down to it I've found that most people that have something against unions have had a bad experience with them or someone they know has had a bad experience with them, it's not because they learned how eveil they are when they were in school.

Oh and so this isn't a crap, trespassing on someone elses property is never a good thing.

Man I've had a pretty good day, happy 4th to you all.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: AgentBehemoth<brk>

Now I'm not going to question anyone heres intelligence cause it means nothing but I will say that none of you are employeed at a think tank and you can spout everything that some prof. told you but when it comes right down to it I've found that most people that have something against unions have had a bad experience with them or someone they know has had a bad experience with them, it's not because they learned how eveil they are when they were in school.

Oh and so this isn't a crap, trespassing on someone elses property is never a good thing.

Man I've had a pretty good day, happy 4th to you all.

Yeah you're correct I don't work in a think tank. And no my school never taught us the evils of the union.

I do however read, and watch the news. I spend most of my computertime reading news and sports. I read mostly non-fiction and I have a great intrerest in history and economics.

Having said that, I have Never been in a union but I do know a few people who have been in them. I have read many a news story where after reading it thought "wow what the hell are they thinking"

Unions preach all fo one on one for all. every one is part of the team and as goes the team go one. I prefer to be judged on my own merits and let the chips fall where they may. Does this mean I could get fired if some a$$hole doen't like me? Yes it does (and I have been) but I have said since I was about 18 I would rather be poor and no who I am then be rich and not. I like being judged on MY occomplishments. I enjoy the risks that come with standing on your own two feet.

Unions and the high proice of labor has driven alot of jobs out of this country. THoose people who stood with the union are now unemployed. Figerhut closed down. The reasonm was the high cost of labor. THe little town I live in saw one of it biggest employer SHUT DOWN for a year because of union demands. the owner couldn't justify paying people 20 bucks an hour to clean turkeys (they nbow make 9-11). Unions may be good for some of there members there is some security, yet for most people they are bad. The carpentry union in rochester, MN has almost a monopoly on all resisdential buildings. this has driven the cost way up.

Our docks are the most ineffiencent in the world yet the union dock worker makes almost as much as a doctor. Now I don't know everything anbout everything BUT a doctor should make more than a dock worker. Labor should be like anyother commodity and should be paid to the highest bidder, if the employee so chooses.

A-Rod makes 25 mil a year because the ranger felt he had good value at that price. Why does a dock worker make 80K? because that is what the union wanted and the dock can't go anywhere else.

 

[tcsenter]

How ever if you were all ready a teacher you did not need theese requirements. At the same time the union was fighting to get smaller class sizes in california. Of course this is to improve education.

Wink wink.

You have to understand how the union thinks. Smaller class sizes means more classrooms. More classrooms means more teachers. More teachers means more union dues.

Nothing can compare to the atrocious state of affairs in the Detroit school system, which was placed in State receivership, a very extreme remedy to an extreme problem.

Basically, in a 'typical' school system, just as in any 'typical' unionized work place, there is an adversarial relationship between the union/workers and management. This benefits only the union, and only the union has an interest in perpetuating this 'adversarial' relationship, by any means necessary, including lying to its members about the company's motives and intentions in order to keep the members constantly in fear of how things would be without the union. But I digress....

Through this adversarial relationship, a 'balance' is struck between the needs of the company and the needs of the workers. Neither has a monopoly of power. Well that's how its supposed to work, anyhoo, it rarely does.

In Detroit, they unionized everyone, from the janitor all the way up to the school administrators and principles. So basically, the fox was guarding the hen house, the inmates were running the asylum. There was no 'competing' interest or adversarial relationship - the union controlled it all.

The results were extremely predictable, unmitigated disaster. The state legislature took the unusual step of enacting legislation which prohibited 'management' from unionizing and dissolved the 'management/administrator' unions. The Governor should have ran the whole lot of them out of the state at gun point for the disaster they caused.

 

[Bleep]

Some regions are still like this, which is probably the 'real' reason you encouraged workers to join the union.

You are entirely wrong on this one. All the business were and still are in Nebraska a Right to Work state, closed shops are not legal in this state. How can you think you know anything about my business except for what I tell you, I as a owner used the Union as much as they used me, Unions have never been detrimental to any of my businesses.
I also noticed that no one took up my challenge on the other unions that I mentioned that only consist of big corporation unions and public service employees. If you treat a employee with dignity and respect they will never ask a union to come in and orginize a place of business.

Bleep

 

[amdskip]

Who GIVES stock to employess both full and part time.

Not Walmart, we have to purchase stock and we get discounted buying/selling fees but thats about it. I put $50/week into walmart stock. We can get a shareholders bonus which depends how your individual store does keeping costs low and few accidents which hasn't happened in the last 3 years our store has been opened. They keep promising this big check but it doesn't happen.

 

[AgentBehemoth]

Originally posted by: tm37

Originally posted by: AgentBehemoth<brk>

Now I'm not going to question anyone heres intelligence cause it means nothing but I will say that none of you are employeed at a think tank and you can spout everything that some prof. told you but when it comes right down to it I've found that most people that have something against unions have had a bad experience with them or someone they know has had a bad experience with them, it's not because they learned how eveil they are when they were in school.

Oh and so this isn't a crap, trespassing on someone elses property is never a good thing.

Man I've had a pretty good day, happy 4th to you all.

Yeah you're correct I don't work in a think tank. And no my school never taught us the evils of the union.

I do however read, and watch the news. I spend most of my computertime reading news and sports. I read mostly non-fiction and I have a great intrerest in history and economics.

Having said that, I have Never been in a union but I do know a few people who have been in them. I have read many a news story where after reading it thought "wow what the hell are they thinking"

Unions preach all fo one on one for all. every one is part of the team and as goes the team go one. I prefer to be judged on my own merits and let the chips fall where they may.


This has nothing to do with some @sshole getting you fired. Most people that have any self respect for themselves will want to earn everything they get.


Does this mean I could get fired if some a$$hole doen't like me? Yes it does (and I have been) but I have said since I was about 18 I would rather be poor and no who I am then be rich and not. I like being judged on MY occomplishments. I enjoy the risks that come with standing on your own two feet.


Most people I know like to be judged on THEIR accomplishments also but they don't go to work all tingly inside cause there's a risk some @sshole will get them fired and they can start on their next quest in life.


Unions and the high proice of labor has driven alot of jobs out of this country.


Man that sounds great and I'm sure you believe it but I live in a state that has probably lost more jobs to Mexico and China than any and that's not why those jobs are going there. And since you bring that up I myself work for a company that has laid off or will lay off 50% of its workforce by the end of Sept. in just the last 4 years and sent everyone of those jobs to China and the cost of their labor didn't rise any in that time, oh and there is no union in this company. The only reason this company has sent its production to China was to make more profit. Is it illegal, NO. Is it screwing the American worker, YES. Is the Chinese buying this product built in China, NO. Is the American people buying this product, YES. Is the American people getting this product cheaper now that it costs a third to produce, NO.

I'm not critisizing but if you think that our jobs are going to China because of unions then you need to start reading from somewhere else.


THoose people who stood with the union are now unemployed. Figerhut closed down. The reasonm was the high cost of labor. THe little town I live in saw one of it biggest employer SHUT DOWN for a year because of union demands. the owner couldn't justify paying people 20 bucks an hour to clean turkeys (they nbow make 9-11). Unions may be good for some of there members there is some security, yet for most people they are bad. The carpentry union in rochester, MN has almost a monopoly on all resisdential buildings. this has driven the cost way up.

Fingerhut was a schitty company, they deserved to go the way of the DoDo bird.

Our docks are the most ineffiencent in the world yet the union dock worker makes almost as much as a doctor. Now I don't know everything anbout everything BUT a doctor should make more than a dock worker. Labor should be like anyother commodity and should be paid to the highest bidder, if the employee so chooses.
A-Rod makes 25 mil a year because the ranger felt he had good value at that price. Why does a dock worker make 80K? because that is what the union wanted and the dock can't go anywhere else.

Again you really should read from other sources if they told you our docks is the most inefficient in the world, although since I'm sure we probably import twice as much as any other country finding one to compare us to would be nearly impossible.
I guess in MN that the Dr.s only make $80,000 a year but where I'm from that might be starting pay. A dock worker makes $80,000 a year because everything you use be it food, clothing, furniture, tires, sundries, you name it and it comes in on the dock and without them you might have to wipe your arse with some of the rags you read instead of Charmin.(ex. I'm sure this is made by Proc.&Gamb. in Ohio or something)

Oh and A-Rod makes 25mil cause there's a dumb@ss that owns a baseball team in Texas.

 

[Freejack2]

For those of you who think Walmart is such a great company maybe you should take a look at this website...
www.walmartwatch.com

Unions may not be the answer but allowing Walmart to abuse their employees isn't either.

I'd pay a few bucks extra at WalMart if it meant their employees got affordable medical insurance and better pay.
I won't claim to know a lot about Target but I do know that they pay their employees better. Needless to say Target gets most of my business. Wish they'd build a super Target around here somewhere.

 

[AnyMal]

Originally posted by: AgentBehemoth

Originally posted by: fuzzy beei recall when i worked at ups. during orientation, the management-types left the office and teamsters reps came in. they essentially just handed out yellow dogs. i asked them if i needed to fill it out. "you do if you want to be in the union" was the reply. once again, i asked them if i *had* to fill it out. the reply, once again - "you do if you want to be in the union." one last time - do i have to fill this out? "just fill out the information at the top, but don't sign it. ttbomk, i was the only person on my shift (out of ~350) that wasn't union. the first payday, i received my whole paycheck. i listened to all of the bitching from everybody about how they only got 1/2 of their paycheck - the subsequent weeks were similar. my question? what did everybody else get for their "dues"? the answer, simply, is nothing.

if unions due such a good job, how come it costs so much to be in them? where do all of their administrative fees go? oh, yeah - they go to fatten the pockets of politicians.

First let me say that if you're implying that the union dues at UPS is half of their checks then please step away from the crack pipe and let someone else take a hit cause you're apparently bogarting it!
Now a couple of things signing that union card would have gotten you is protection from being fired cause that @sshole they brought in from that center in NY(no offense to any damn yankees) that just doesn't like you for whatever reason. Or because that little computer geek that didn't like what time you brought his schitt calls and complains and makes up some crap lie about you and your service.
Or when that shoddy packaged necklace falls out of the package on your truck and you find it and turn it in and some @sshole 2 months on the job manager says he knows you were trying to steal it(actually happened). Those are the times that signing that card would have prevented any of your co-workers from being fired, you on the other hand would have been looking for your next job.

Yeah unions are schitty sometimes but management at most companies make unions look like choir boys.

Now what no one has talked about here is the fact that the unions aren't just for one company and their members don't just work at one company. This was what got the workers at UPS shafted the last time the contract came up and that last idiot that was running the union(the one worse than Hoffa Jr.) had his way. I saw the contract offered by UPS and it was an awesome windfall for the UPS employees. A thou. or two the first year then a thou. the next and the next and good raises to go with it. Most of this was directed toward the full time employees of course. Continued great health benefits with a $10 co-pay and couple of dollars co-pay for prescripts.

The union that represents UPSs workers also has many small companies that they represent too and it was UPSs subsidizing of these smaller companies insurance that caused the workers at UPS to not get that deal cause the union wanted UPS to continue to pay for all these smaller companies insurance and instead of the great deal that those UPS workers was gonna get they got some measely raises and some part timers got to go full time faster than they might have. Period. No bonuses, no hefty raises. All because the union used the number of UPS employees, and UPSs need to have them continue to work to keep cheap insurance for companies unrelated to UPS.

Now even after having said all this I still don't think unions are bad I just think they do bad things at times. And that @sshole before Hoffa jr. was as crooked as they come, personally I think Hoffa jr. is doing OK.


Now I'm not going to question anyone heres intelligence cause it means nothing but I will say that none of you are employeed at a think tank and you can spout everything that some prof. told you but when it comes right down to it I've found that most people that have something against unions have had a bad experience with them or someone they know has had a bad experience with them, it's not because they learned how eveil they are when they were in school.

Oh and so this isn't a crap, trespassing on someone elses property is never a good thing.

Man I've had a pretty good day, happy 4th to you all.

Since you brought up UPS, I felt the need to chime in and set the record straight. Having been employed by UPS for the last 6 years and working in both union and non-union capacity I can tell you that you have been somewhat "misinformed".

The strike you are refering to took place in the summer of 1997 and I happened to be there. In my opinion employees were handed a raw deal by the union and here's why: the people that decided to support the strike lost money. I am talking about part-time union employees, many of whom had families to support. They were'nt receiving any financial support from union until the third week of strike after which they began collecting "strike pay" of appx $50 per week. Guess what? Union promptly deducted their dues from thos measely checks. In the end Teamsters settled for $.50 per hour across the board raise. Sounds like a victory? Here comes the sweet irony, shortly after the strike was over, the union quietly raised the dues. To add insult to injury, Ron Carrey (then president of Teamsters) was found to have embezzeled over a million dollars from the very people he was suppose to look after.

You have advised the poster that stated unoin dues make up "half their checks" to step away from the crack pipe. He did exadurate somewhat, but he's not far from the truth. Here's the lowdown on dues. You are required to pay $100.00 initiation fee (paid over 5 weeks) plus $22.00 monthly. So for 7 weeks straight Teamsters deduct $20.00 from each persons check, while they barely make a $100.00 a week.. If it's not an extortion then I don't know what it is.

You stated that union protects employees from being terminated because someone allegedly may not like you. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is very easy to terminate a union employee as long as that employee is found guilty of violating company policies (tardiness, poor performance). In fact, union contract makes the process very easy as it defines the exact steps management must take in order to suspend or terminate employee, eliminating any "guesswork". Noone in their right mind will terminate someone "just because".

On the subject of insurance. Unions made is impossible for employees to have a choice of insurance plans. The contract calls for one plan, no choice. Take it or leave it. I, on the other hand, have a choice of three insurance providers and my plan which covers my entire family (wife + 2 children) costs me a whopping $.30 per week including dental plan. Let me spell it out, I pay thirty cents per week.

Here is my biggest beef with union, they believe that people should be promoted based on seniority not merit. As a result we have waiting lists dating 15 years ahead for such positions as deliver car drivers and mechanics. Is that fair?

On the other hand, as soon as I got out of the union, I was promoted 5 times in 4 years.

Think about it...

 

[Bleep]

Here is the LV link I was asked about, Wallmart lost in court

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: AgentBehemoth
First let me say that if you're implying that the union dues at UPS is half of their checks then please step away from the crack pipe and let someone else take a hit cause you're apparently bogarting it!

First, let me say that I saw their paychecks. Union "initiation" fees were huge - upwards of $200 or so. Ergo, 1/2 of their first paycheck went to the Teamsters.

Now a couple of things signing that union card would have gotten you is protection from being fired cause that @sshole they brought in from that center in NY(no offense to any damn yankees) that just doesn't like you for whatever reason. Or because that little computer geek that didn't like what time you brought his schitt calls and complains and makes up some crap lie about you and your service.

How many companies fire people for no reason anymore? The litigious nature of this society forbids it. Everybody has to follow procedures to a "t" or risk a legal nightmare. What that union card *would* allow is for me to be a lazy, nonproductive employee with no fear of termination. Yeah, that's good for everybody involved.

Or when that shoddy packaged necklace falls out of the package on your truck and you find it and turn it in and some @sshole 2 months on the job manager says he knows you were trying to steal it(actually happened). Those are the times that signing that card would have prevented any of your co-workers from being fired, you on the other hand would have been looking for your next job.

Believe it or not, UPS does have policies and procedures that must be followed. Should I feel I was terminated inaprpopriately, you better believe I'd be riding the Jackie Chiles train to get my job back. Besides, they would have no way of knowing if I was a Teamster or not - believe me, they were scared out of their boots to even think about firing crap employees. As a result, *I* had to work harder to pick up the slack.

Yeah unions are schitty sometimes but management at most companies make unions look like choir boys.

Perhaps there should be a management union.

Now what no one has talked about here is the fact that the unions aren't just for one company and their members don't just work at one company. This was what got the workers at UPS shafted the last time the contract came up and that last idiot that was running the union(the one worse than Hoffa Jr.) had his way. I saw the contract offered by UPS and it was an awesome windfall for the UPS employees. A thou. or two the first year then a thou. the next and the next and good raises to go with it. Most of this was directed toward the full time employees of course. Continued great health benefits with a $10 co-pay and couple of dollars co-pay for prescripts.

See, that's the difference between you and me. When I worked at UPS, I realized that I was overpaid. Hell, over five hours in a day was freaking overtime. That is ridiculous. I'd already planned on working through the strike before my car died. Of course, if it hadn't, I'm sure that people would have thrown rocks through the windows. Good ole' union boys.

The union that represents UPSs workers also has many small companies that they represent too and it was UPSs subsidizing of these smaller companies insurance that caused the workers at UPS to not get that deal cause the union wanted UPS to continue to pay for all these smaller companies insurance and instead of the great deal that those UPS workers was gonna get they got some measely raises and some part timers got to go full time faster than they might have. Period. No bonuses, no hefty raises. All because the union used the number of UPS employees, and UPSs need to have them continue to work to keep cheap insurance for companies unrelated to UPS.

Now even after having said all this I still don't think unions are bad I just think they do bad things at times. And that @sshole before Hoffa jr. was as crooked as they come, personally I think Hoffa jr. is doing OK.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ROTFLPIMFP!

Now I'm not going to question anyone heres intelligence cause it means nothing but I will say that none of you are employeed at a think tank and you can spout everything that some prof. told you but when it comes right down to it I've found that most people that have something against unions have had a bad experience with them or someone they know has had a bad experience with them, it's not because they learned how eveil they are when they were in school.

I've had issues with them, all right - ever had a domestic car made on a Monday or a Friday?

Oh and so this isn't a crap, trespassing on someone elses property is never a good thing.

Man I've had a pretty good day, happy 4th to you all.

happy 4th to you, as well.

 

[Martin]

Some of you guys are waaay too paranoid about unions. Don't worry, if these people join a union, they won't start making $40/hr and Walmart's prices won't go up by 500%. My first job was at a grocery store, I was part of a union and I still made minimum wage.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Some of you guys are waaay too paranoid about unions. Don't worry, if these people join a union, they won't start making $40/hr and Walmart's prices won't go up by 500%. My first job was at a grocery store, I was part of a union and I still made minimum wage.

How much did you pay in union dues? What did the union do for you?

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: Freejack2
For those of you who think Walmart is such a great company maybe you should take a look at this website...
www.walmartwatch.com

Unions may not be the answer but allowing Walmart to abuse their employees isn't either.

I'd pay a few bucks extra at WalMart if it meant their employees got affordable medical insurance and better pay.
I won't claim to know a lot about Target but I do know that they pay their employees better. Needless to say Target gets most of my business. Wish they'd build a super Target around here somewhere.

Actually the Walmart wjhere I live pays more and has better benifit than either target or kmart.

 

[FuzzyBee]

If you treat a employee with dignity and respect they will never ask a union to come in and orginize a place of business.

However, the union may seek out the employees to form a union.

 

[tcsenter]

If you treat a employee with dignity and respect they will never ask a union to come in and orginize a place of business.

lol! This has got to be the most absurd statement of the century. It presumes as some kind of underlying belief that people are never greedy or selfish, never have ulterior motives or agendas including ideological ones, never suffer from envy or jealousy, always stand up for the truth even when they might be the only one to do so, never have unreasonable expectations or perceptions, are always honest and have a great work ethic, are never slackers or shirkers, unless of course someone first provokes or gives them cause to be, and finally, that the manifestation of these 'always justifiable' feelings are always directed toward the person who provoked them and consistent with the context in which they were provoked, never towards some one or some thing else.

Wow, what a laughably rosey [and foolish] view of the world.

If that were true, why then would we need unions? Oh, these are only traits exclusive to hourly workers and wage earners. When one comes to hold a salaried position, these traits just 'automagically' disappear. Rrrright-O!

I've been witness to so many 'circle jerks' starting with one disgruntled person who begins to spout-off in the presence of others some kind of malcontent with not only their workplace, but with the world in general because their father was a drunk, or they grew up in the ghetto, or their wife is a b-tch, or they made a series of extremely stupid mistakes in their life which they cannot put behind them, and everyone else joins in the 'bitch and complain' fest - whether or not they sincerely share it - because the 'mob rules' and 'me too' mentality reigns supreme.

This is how riots or civil disturbances are easily incited, by whipping up peoples' angst and frustrations, from whatever source derived, and redirecting them towards some [often unrelated] target. We can find numerous examples of this phenomena right here on good old AT Forums. The venerable circle jerk, its raw irrationality can't be beat.

The next time I'm in Michigan, I'll take you to my home town of Flint, where I'll introduce you to some of the highest paid illiterates and drunks you'll ever meet, who not only enjoy some of the best benefits and working conditions in the industrialized world, but cannot participate in any conversation of any nature for longer than 10 minutes without somehow being able to introduce into the discussion a tirade disparaging their employer and lamenting about not being paid enough because they can't seem to save any money (just before they excuse themselves to go make the monthly payment on their two brand new $40,000 vehicles, a brand new Harley Davidson, their two brand new snowmobiles, their brand new fishing boat, their time-share cottage up north, their big screen television and entertainment center, and while they're out, might as well stop at the liquor store to pick-up their $200 in weekly lottery tickets and booze).

A very rosey view, indeed.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
The next time I'm in Michigan, I'll take you to my home town of Flint, where I'll introduce you to some of the highest paid illiterates and drunks you'll ever meet, who not only enjoy some of the best benefits and working conditions in the industrialized world, but cannot participate in any conversation of any nature for longer than 10 minutes without somehow being able to introduce into the discussion a tirade disparaging their employer and lamenting about not being paid enough because they can't seem to save any money (just before they excuse themselves to go make the monthly payment on their two brand new $40,000 vehicles, a brand new Harley Davidson, their two brand new snowmobiles, their brand new fishing boat, their time-share cottage up north, their big screen television and entertainment center, and while they're out, might as well stop at the liquor store to pick-up their $200 in weekly lottery tickets and booze).

Make sure to go by and get Michael Moore while you're at it

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: fuzzy bee

Originally posted by: tcsenter
The next time I'm in Michigan, I'll take you to my home town of Flint, where I'll introduce you to some of the highest paid illiterates and drunks you'll ever meet, who not only enjoy some of the best benefits and working conditions in the industrialized world, but cannot participate in any conversation of any nature for longer than 10 minutes without somehow being able to introduce into the discussion a tirade disparaging their employer and lamenting about not being paid enough because they can't seem to save any money (just before they excuse themselves to go make the monthly payment on their two brand new $40,000 vehicles, a brand new Harley Davidson, their two brand new snowmobiles, their brand new fishing boat, their time-share cottage up north, their big screen television and entertainment center, and while they're out, might as well stop at the liquor store to pick-up their $200 in weekly lottery tickets and booze).

Make sure to go by and get Michael Moore while you're at it

tscenter is MM biggest fan.

 

[EvilYoda]

I've been to a Walmart once, and that was to check for a HD which wasn't there. I was sad.

Good thread tho, gained a lot of knowledge that wasn't very concrete for me before. thanks.