Wall Street behaved badly, but not illegally

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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Hmm, not so much of the second eh? Did you actually read the link? Here, let me post some of the "second" for you from the article.

Link is nonsense; thread is nonsense. It starts with a misquote of Obama. He actually said:

Well, first, on the issue of — on the issue of prosecutions on Wall Street, one of the biggest problems about the collapse of Lehman’s and the subsequent financial crisis and the whole subprime lending fiasco is that a lot of that stuff wasn’t necessarily illegal, it was just immoral or inappropriate or reckless.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...dra-and-fast-furious-todays-qs-for-o-1062011/

Link leaves off the "a lot" qualifier and hence the link is totally dishonest. He didn't say no illegalities. He said "a lot" of it wasn't illegal.

Second point is that even Obama's "a lot" in context refers to Wall Street, and actions that caused the collapse in 9/2008. It wasn't referring to anything and everything American banks might do that is illegal over a period of time. I'm not certain here, but I don't know that every example listed meets those criteria. In any event, the misquotation kills the "gotcha" right there.

- wolf
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
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0
I would agree with woolfe.

Looks to be selective quoting and selective outrage.

And some major hypocrisy.

The occupy people forget that the Democrats are in control of the justice department and there has been very little effort to go after 'law breakers' by them.

And yet the protesters who are bitching about greed and corruption ignore this fact and still support Obama's reelection.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
The former chief risk officer for Citifinancial testified under oath before the FCIC that the company knowingly sold loans on to investors that did not meet their quality guidelines and published claims. In fact, he testified that by 2007 80 percent of those loans were defective. This is functionally identical to selling you a car and rolling back the odometer, peddling tainted medicine or selling melamine-laced baby formula. There is nothing complicated about this and there is under-oath testimony establishing that it was not an accident or an "error in judgment" as it continued for more than a year after it became known and was the subject of internal memos to corporate officers. This is not my conjecture or analysis, it is factual sworn testimony before a government body. Where are the damned handcuffs?

I'm not entirely familiar with the testimony to which you are referring but, just from reading the summary you provided, I don't necessarily think that regulatory action -- much less jail time -- would be appropriate. A bank selling assets that violate its own internal quality guidelines isn't a crime as the bank is not bound by law to follow such guidelines. Whether selling assets that actually differed from the bank's published claims vis-a-vis those assets is a crime depends on the nature of the misstatements -- in effect, whether they were material to an average investor. Although reasonable people can disagree as to what constitutes materiality in this context, if Citi provided full and accurate disclosure of the loans and didn't alter terms or hide 'bad' loans from potential investors then I'm chary to say that there was a crime committed. The investors were sophisticated counter-parties that had the ability -- provided Citi gave them an accurate accounting of the loans they were selling -- to independently evaluate the quality and risk associated with their investment. As such, why should the resources of the federal government be invoked because one set of investors made a series of bad bets?

Also, your analogies are all off the mark because it is not a crime -- in most cases, and especially those involving two sophisticated parties -- to sell low quality assets or securities. The only crime is in misrepresenting the quality of the assets.

Sarbanes-Oxley criminalized false accounting statements. There have been multiple bank failures by public companies that filed balance sheets under penalty of criminal prosecution were they to be false just weeks before they blew up -- balance sheets that showed perfectly-healthy institutions. The FDIC has documented dozens of bank failures, privately-held and publicly-traded, where those balance sheets were proved factually false, as the losses have been 20, 30, 40% or even more just a few weeks later. It is beyond comprehension that the assets in question could have actually lost 30 or 40% of their value within that period of time. The only rational explanation is that these financial statements were a work of fiction. Sarbanes-Oxley makes this a criminal matter. Again, where are the handcuffs?

Just because liabilities that were off-balance sheet jump onto a bank's balance sheet a few weeks or months later does not necessarily suggest that there was any accounting impropriety committed by either the company, its accountants or its auditors. Some of the activity would certainly seem to be fraudulent -- such as Repo 105 -- but other methods of moving assets of balance-sheet such as using SIVs or SPVs are not illegal and were recognized as entirely valid at the time the CEO and CFO signed the audit and accounting reports under Sarbox. The problem, of course, with SIVs is that the obligations housed in those vehicles are only 'quasi' off the balance and can jump back on at the least inopportune of times (as many of the banks experienced). This does not mean, however, there was a crime as the banks did comply with generally accepted accouting practices and guidelines -- which, this case, permitted holding less (or no) capital for SIVs and SPVs. The problem was not with the conduct of the banks but the accounting rules governing the banks.

Oh, and on the topic of robo-signing, they did break the law but I can emphasize with them mainly because the American real property regime still has yet to evolve from the 16th century. It is hopelessly outdated and impractical. Moreover, there is no evidence yet produced that any individual was wrongfully foreclosed upon by a bank or loan-servicing company.

EDIT: Just read Wolf's response; I will second both of his arguments.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Obama like all pols are FOS. They rely on these captains of industry for their livelihood. Matt Talabbi had a peice on this of high level crimes going back 40 years unprosecuted. Laws are for the little people.

Anyway Good blog. But he missed fraud of slapping AAA on the garbage and blowing sunshine up peoples behind and selling in the form of MBS to your pensions, 401k, pers and whatnot. When you sell garbage to someone intentionally concealing it's garbage that's fraud too.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
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Link is nonsense; thread is nonsense. It starts with a misquote of Obama. He actually said:


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...dra-and-fast-furious-todays-qs-for-o-1062011/

Link leaves off the "a lot" qualifier and hence the link is totally dishonest. He didn't say no illegalities. He said "a lot" of it wasn't illegal.

Second point is that even Obama's "a lot" in context refers to Wall Street, and actions that caused the collapse in 9/2008. It wasn't referring to anything and everything American banks might do that is illegal over a period of time. I'm not certain here, but I don't know that every example listed meets those criteria. In any event, the misquotation kills the "gotcha" right there.

- wolf

Fuck the misquote, fuck the "lot", and fuck the "misconception".

The point is absurdly simple, how many banksters have been prosecuted for the biggest fraud perpetuated against the American people ever? We have enough proof that micky mouse could prosecute some of these assholes but not only are they free men but they have been allowed to keep all of their illgotten gains.

This is not an "Obama" issue because the last asshole in the White House let the same assholes get away with the same shit. However, Obama is there now and he is in fact the head of the executive branch of government. Do I need to remind you what departments are included in the "executive branch" (hint law enforcement).


Jesus christ, this is still all about protecting "your guy" or bashing the "other peoples guy". If you two clubs can't get your head out of your asses and come out against people that are illegally fucking both of yall then what is the point of the rest of the bullshit?

BTW, your entire post was based upon your view that Obama did not say that they did nothing illegal not that blatantly illegal actions have not been committed (they have and are).

Try again bud, I ain't playing for any of yalls two bullshit clubs. Hell this story isn't even news because his actions have said the exact same thing since he became President, as did the last Presidents actions. Personally, I don't really pay attention to what they say but what they actually do (psst, most of what they say is bullshit, don't tell anyone). Do you truly have any idea the amount of blatant fraud alone that has taken place to get us here?

Question: When breaking the law becomes extremely profitably, does that particular action generally happen more or less?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Obama like all pols are FOS. They rely on these captains of industry for their livelihood. Matt Talabbi had a peice on this of high level crimes going back 40 years unprosecuted. Laws are for the little people.

Anyway Good blog. But he missed fraud of slapping AAA on the garbage and blowing sunshine up peoples behind and selling in the form of MBS to your pensions, 401k, pers and whatnot. When you sell garbage to someone intentionally concealing it's garbage that's fraud too.

Read deeper or use the search, he addresses that a lot. I am assuming he just hit the big, and very easy to prove, points.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
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I'm not entirely familiar with the testimony to which you are referring but, just from reading the summary you provided, I don't necessarily think that regulatory action -- much less jail time -- would be appropriate. A bank selling assets that violate its own internal quality guidelines isn't a crime as the bank is not bound by law to follow such guidelines.

It is when they do not state that the loans do not meet their own underwriting standards.

"During the foreclosure trial, an operational team leader for Bank of America, Linda DiMartini, said it was “customary for Countrywide to maintain possession of the original note and related documents.”

So the purchaser doesn't even have the ability to verify the quality of the loan nor do they legally (in most states) own the note. Those loans were packaged into MBS, which again are fraudulent because they do not contain the actual notes, and rated AAA.

Furthermore, since the vast majority of the loans made were eventually securitized and those securities received AAA ratings, largely due to claims made by the banks, it is very difficult to argue that massive fraud has not taken place.

It is exactly the same thing as taking a dog turd and dipping it in chocolate then boxing it up and selling it as pure Godiva. On the surface it looks and smells like chocolate until you dig in and take a bite. We call that fraud and it is in fact a crime.

Whether selling assets that actually differed from the bank's published claims vis-a-vis those assets is a crime depends on the nature of the misstatements -- in effect, whether they were material to an average investor. Although reasonable people can disagree as to what constitutes materiality in this context, if Citi provided full and accurate disclosure of the loans and didn't alter terms or hide 'bad' loans from potential investors then I'm chary to say that there was a crime committed. The investors were sophisticated counter-parties that had the ability -- provided Citi gave them an accurate accounting of the loans they were selling -- to independently evaluate the quality and risk associated with their investment.

" "In carrying out its review of the approximately 19,000 Countrywide loan files, MBIA found that 91% of the defaulted or delinquent loans in those securitizations contained material deviations from Countrywide’s underwriting guidelines. MBIA’s report showed that the loan applications frequently “(i) lack key documentation, such as verification of borrower assets or income; (ii) include an invalid or incomplete appraisal; (iii) demonstrate fraud by the borrower on the face of the application; or (iv) reflect that any of borrower income, FICO score, debt, DTI [debt-to-income,] or CLTV [combined loan-to-value] ratios, fails to meet stated Countrywide guidelines (without any permissible exception)." The plaintiff counsel is Bernstein Litowitz, which was made famous from the WorldCom litigation. We doubt they will settle for a few measily pennies on the dollar. As for the list of litigants, it is a veritable who's who of the insurance industry: Dexia Holdings, FSA Asset Management, New York Life iInsurance Company, The Mainstay Funds, Teachers Insurance & Annuity, TIAA-CREF Life Insurance, and College Retirement Equities Fund."

Hmm, what would you call that?

As such, why should the resources of the federal government be invoked because one set of investors made a series of bad bets?

Because black letter law was violated and people/entities have been cheated out of enormous sums of money and law enforcement is supposed to, I dunno, enforce the law?

Also, your analogies are all off the mark because it is not a crime -- in most cases, and especially those involving two sophisticated parties -- to sell low quality assets or securities. The only crime is in misrepresenting the quality of the assets.

It IS a crime to sell low quality assets or securities and claim that they are very high quality assets of securities. The sophistication of the other party is irrelevant, fraud is fraud.

Just because liabilities that were off-balance sheet jump onto a bank's balance sheet a few weeks or months later does not necessarily suggest that there was any accounting impropriety committed by either the company, its accountants or its auditors. Some of the activity would certainly seem to be fraudulent -- such as Repo 105 -- but other methods of moving assets of balance-sheet such as using SIVs or SPVs are not illegal and were recognized as entirely valid at the time the CEO and CFO signed the audit and accounting reports under Sarbox. The problem, of course, with SIVs is that the obligations housed in those vehicles are only 'quasi' off the balance and can jump back on at the least inopportune of times (as many of the banks experienced). This does not mean, however, there was a crime as the banks did comply with generally accepted accouting practices and guidelines -- which, this case, permitted holding less (or no) capital for SIVs and SPVs. The problem was not with the conduct of the banks but the accounting rules governing the banks.

Really? Why don't you try to make an "accounting error" for your company to the tune of 40 freaking percent (which the taxpayer has to then eat) and see what happens to you. I can understand a few percent or maybe even 10% but damn near HALF??? Are you kidding?

Oh, and on the topic of robo-signing, they did break the law but I can emphasize with them mainly because the American real property regime still has yet to evolve from the 16th century. It is hopelessly outdated and impractical. Moreover, there is no evidence yet produced that any individual was wrongfully foreclosed upon by a bank or loan-servicing company.

Wait, you said they did break the law but even though the foreclosure was not legal per black letter law no individual was wrongfully foreclosed upon by a bank or loan servicing company? Furthermore I can post literally dozens of cases of wrongful foreclosures, entities foreclosing that had no right to do so, foreclosures on properties that the bank did not and NEVER owned the loan. Breaking and entering into some poor womans house while she was home by foreclosure agents working for a bank when the woman OWNED the house outright. But wait, they did it again to the SAME WOMAN! Frankly they are lucky in the last case because in the state that happened the woman could have legally shot and killed the intruders.

I do invite you to go to your local courthouse and perjure yourself under oath and see what happens. Why do you think that the banksters should be held to a different set of laws than you or I?

How about bribery? Politicians admitted in court that they received a bribe from a large bank and said politicians are currently in JAIL. Last I checked at least two parties are guilty in a bribery case, the party accepting the bribe AND the party offering the bribe. Why is it that the party offering (and paying) the bribe gets off scott free?
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
But he missed fraud of slapping AAA on the garbage and blowing sunshine up peoples behind and selling in the form of MBS to your pensions, 401k, pers and whatnot. When you sell garbage to someone intentionally concealing it's garbage that's fraud too.

In the first instance, taking anything Taibbi writes as fact or the like is asking for trouble. When he first started writing for RS I enjoyed his work even though he had a slight liberal bent. Since 2008, however, he has thrown all semblance of accurate reporting out the window and pushes the talking points of the left, anti-corporitist/anti-Wall Street fringe. When I read Taibbi it's as if I'm reading a dumbed-down Krugman article. Moreover, Krugman the Economist at least helps to keep Krugman the Democratic Partisan in check; unfortunately, Taibbi the Hack has no such counterpart.

As to the criminality of selling securitized products, I posit that there is no crime where there is full and fair disclosure. Pension funds, hedge funds and other money managers are sophisticated investors and the the securities laws should not be invoked to coddle them because they took bad positions on certain investments. Having been shown the 'pool' of assets backing the securities in question they were able to make an informed decision as to whether the security was worth the asking price.

Many of the pension funds etc. complaining the loudest about the intrinsic worthlessness of the securitized products they purchased are no different from someone who, having made an informed bet and having further lost on that bet, now, after the fact, attributes their loss to the game having being fixed. Rather, in the case of securitized products, I would suggest that their loss should be attributed to their own greed -- specifically, a desire to get higher yields for their fund etc. -- or their own incompetency. Neither of those ought to serve as a valid cause of action against the sellers of securities.

Making counterparties to trades fiduciaries to one another would only make the capital markets extremely illiquid. I have no problem protecting unsophisticated investors from con-artists and market schemes. I think it foolish, however, to protect sophisticated investors who simply made imprudent investments.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
At least you are honest to point out that both parties are a failure.

It looks like the movement is turning into a part of the Democrat party though with all the unions and Democrats coming out to support them.

I think the movement becomes much weaker if it is seen as just a bunch of Democrats complaining and causing problems.

No- the Democratic party just becomes stronger by listening to the people, the progressive elements in their base.

It's not like there are progressive elements in the Repub base, or that Repubs have offered to do anything other than strengthen the hand of the banksters & the corporate elite.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
orbster, your criticisms of the outstanding Taibbi are full of baseless fluff - worthless.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
orbster, your criticisms of the outstanding Taibbi are full of baseless fluff - worthless.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...ion-ubs-incident-rogue-trader-my-ass-20110915

Prop trading had little to do with the losses suffered by banks during the recent financial crisis (http://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpag.../hearings/library/hearing-091009-geithner.cfm (videotaped testimony at 134:25)). Rather, the losses suffered by banks resulted primarily from a drop in value of the assets the banks were holding onto as investments (typically long-term mortgages) and not from the banks trading on those products. Even Volcker, after initially endorsing prop trading prohibitions, has backed off his position (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/30/us-financial-regulation-volcker-idUSTRE62T56420100330) and noted that prop trading was not a principal cause behind banks' losses.
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http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...tax-holiday-gains-bipartisan-support-20110726

Again, a completely one-sided examination of the issue. I suppose it doesn't contain the same degree of glaring misstatements as some of his other articles, but hardly a good piece by any stretch of the imagination. Moreover, I take issue not only with the substance of his writing but also the tone -- his prose always takes the form of self-righteous hectoring in which there is never any middle-ground (and he is always on the side of righteousness).
-------------------------------------------
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-new-let-them-eat-cake-20110713

Self-righteous invective that does little to analyze issues and focuses solely on demonizing an individual (who well might deserve the criticism) and then equating an entire class of people with the person he just finished traducing. Moreover, it is not just greedy, hedge fund managers and bankers that have posited the theory that earning 250k GI does not qualify you as rich, see, e.g., Chuck Schumer.
---------------------------------------

His Various Claims Against GS vis-a-vis Abacus and Other Deals:

This might be the area where I find his analysis the most egregious. In almost all of his writings that I have read on the subject, I never once come across a serious discussion of any legal standards or rules governing broker-dealers. Instead, there are appeals to morality or duties. I think Taibbi and anyone else who is convinced of GS' impropriety in the Abacus case are seriously overestimating the importance of Paulson's involvement in the selection of assets that would underly the instrument being traded. Specifically, the investors in the case were sophisticated investors who knew (or should have known) what they were doing. The instrument involved in the Abacus deal was a synthetic CDO which, by its very structure, means that the counterparty to the deal believes the value of the underlying assets will decline. Moreover, it is not even clear how much influence Paulson had over the selection of the underlying assets given that ACA Capital Management (the portfolio selection agent named by GS) rejected more than 1/2 the assets initially identified by Paulson. Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that he had an active role in selecting the underlying assets, I don't believe this is all that troubling because the investors were still able to see, before purchasing the notes from GS, what assets constituted the CDO portfolio. They were sophisticated investors that were given all the information necessary to make a determination as to the value of the notes irrespective of what value Paulson, GS or anyone else assigned to them.

As to GS' own shorting of mortgages in 2007, maybe it was unscrupulous or bad for client relations but nothing I have read from him or from the Levin report leads me to believe that GS violated either the '34 Act. GS was dealing with sophisticated counterparties who had the information (and one hopes ability) to independently evaluate the quality and risks associated with any products they were purchasing from GS. Furthermore, when a broker-dealer (like GS) is acting as a dealer they are acting as a principal -- in effect seeking to advance their own interests -- and are not bound by the same fiduciary responsibilities that govern when the broker-dealer is acting as a broker. Any sophisticated investor is aware of this and the documentation of the transaction would have stressed this in the event that a counterparty was not aware.

Perhaps some of the purchasers of MBS products would have considered GS' bearish outlook on the mortgage market material. Others, however, would have not as these others were well-established and sophisticated investors and GS analysts are not always right. Indeed, it is the fact that reasonable people could disagree as to what constitutes material information that most likely influenced GS to seek a settlement with the SEC regarding the Abacus case. Maybe they committed violations, maybe they didn't.

My problem with Taibbi is that, having provided an inchoate or incorrect restatement of the applicable legal issues and standards, he then precedes to convict GS without even considering the other side. Writing with the same vituperative self-righteousness that is the hallmark of many of his other pieces, he reduces complex issues down to a self-serving narrative while also not missing the chance to engage in character assassination along the way.

I hope this provides you with some substance.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
Fuck the misquote, fuck the "lot", and fuck the "misconception".

The point is absurdly simple, how many banksters have been prosecuted for the biggest fraud perpetuated against the American people ever? We have enough proof that micky mouse could prosecute some of these assholes but not only are they free men but they have been allowed to keep all of their illgotten gains.

No. I'm sick and fucking tired of the garbage that is this forum. Half the threads here start with a false premise, a lie or distortion. Then those who like the thrust of the lie jump on it and go to town, and no one questions it. Sorry, but facts do actually matter. This thread is based on a blog that misquotes someone, and also lists a series of examples that aren't even what the quoted individual was referring to. Wachovia laundering drug money has nothing whatsoever to do with the subprime lending crisis, and nothing to do with what brought down the economy. The blogger pads his list with whatever wrongdoing he can find in the financial sector, and that after plucking words from a quote to form a fictional one.

I think instead of accusing me of trying to protect "my guy," maybe you should consider why you're willing to run with a garbage source because it supports your own position. I'm not the one on the wrong side of the facts here. You're in the bullshit club here, not me. I have no interest in protecting Obama here. I think the failure to prosecute Goldman Sachs is inexcusable. But this thread is based on bald faced lying and that is a fact. Why did I even have to correct this nonsense? You were in the thread before me. You should have caught it yourself.

- wolf
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
orbster, your criticisms of the outstanding Taibbi are full of baseless fluff - worthless.
Taibbi is an idiot who claimed that Bush stole Ohio in the 2004 election even though Bush won the state by 150,000 votes.
And so on. There are dozens more such glitches, which taken together suggest that the exit polls in Ohio, showing Kerry the victor, were probably accurate. But this is just a primer. More facts next week, plus an interview with Sherrod Brown—and a guide to what to do next.
That is why we in the media need to reexamine the 2004 election. If they really did steal it, we can't just let it slide. Because they'll do it again. And forget about the Democrats being able to do anything about it. They have their own problems.
Why anyone would pay attention to the guy after that is beyond me.
 

Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,695
4
0
Taibbi is an idiot who claimed that Bush stole Ohio in the 2004 election even though Bush won the state by 150,000 votes.

You never have bothered to watch the several good documentaries on what happened in Ohio, have you?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
No. I'm sick and fucking tired of the garbage that is this forum. Half the threads here start with a false premise, a lie or distortion. Then those who like the thrust of the lie jump on it and go to town, and no one questions it. Sorry, but facts do actually matter. This thread is based on a blog that misquotes someone, and also lists a series of examples that aren't even what the quoted individual was referring to. Wachovia laundering drug money has nothing whatsoever to do with the subprime lending crisis, and nothing to do with what brought down the economy. The blogger pads his list with whatever wrongdoing he can find in the financial sector, and that after plucking words from a quote to form a fictional one.

I think instead of accusing me of trying to protect "my guy," maybe you should consider why you're willing to run with a garbage source because it supports your own position. I'm not the one on the wrong side of the facts here. You're in the bullshit club here, not me. I have no interest in protecting Obama here. I think the failure to prosecute Goldman Sachs is inexcusable. But this thread is based on bald faced lying and that is a fact. Why did I even have to correct this nonsense? You were in the thread before me. You should have caught it yourself.

- wolf

As I stated, I do not care what he said. I care about what he actually DOES and his actions and the actions of Federal LEO and regulators that he is directly in charge of show that the big banksters are above the law. Period. Full stop. End of story.

It has already been proven through civil lawsuits and settlements that a vast majority of the MBS did not even contain the proper notes as required by law. The originator of those securities has in fact committed fraud by knowingly stating a product includes those notes when in fact they do not. Furthermore we have sworn testimony in front of Congress that 80% of a mega banks loans during a certain time period did not meet their own underwriting guidelines. Those loans were packaged and sold without disclosing that they did not meet the banks own underwriting guidelines. That is called fraud. Hell there is an entire class of loans now called "liar loans" that were fraudulent. The rest of the list just shows how far the banksters are above the law with every last one of the charges made verifiable if you cared to do so.

A lot of people seem to want to excuse perjury when done by big banksters but tell me, what do you suppose would happen to you if you knowingly and blatantly perjured yourself while under oath in a court of law?

No charges have been filed. No indictments. Not even a clawback of the profits gained from illegal activity.

That is the bullshit that you should be tired of. Instead its some misquote from Obama or an intentionally misleading thread title.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
That is the bullshit that you should be tired of. Instead its some misquote from Obama or an intentionally misleading thread title.

Yeah I'm tired of the bullshit misquotes and misleading thread titles because I spend too much time on this discussion forum and it's a cesspool, which raises the legitimate question of why I spend so much time on it to begin with. But that's another story. Anyway, my feeling is that if you want to raise a legitimate issue, then start a thread raising said legitimate issue. Threads that start off as lies are rarely a good forum for airing the legitimate grievance, and quite honestly the grievance comes across as a goal post shift. It starts off with something totally dishonest which you run with. It's then proven dishonest and you just go on your merry way on the to the next point. Maybe it's just me, but it sticks in my craw.

I don't know about your points regarding the illegality of bank activities in general. I've done some reading on the subject but not enough to feel confident in my opinion. We did unfortunately deregulate the banking sector and hence they were able to pull a lot of crap that would not have been legal before.

I do spot an inconsistency in the way some people on the left (not you) approach the issue. In one breath they say we deregulated and that caused the problem. In another, they say there was rampant illegality that caused the problem. If there was rampant illegality, then it seems existing laws and regulations covered everything they did and we don't need more of them, just better enforcement of existing ones. But if deregulation really caused the problem, then by definition most of what they did was probably legal.

- wolf
 
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