Wait!!! World terrorism has DROPPED over the last 5 years

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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How many times have we heard that terrorism has increased in the last 5 years or that the war in Iraq has caused an increase in terrorism.

Well it seems that those statements aren't exactly correct. When you subtract the Iraq War deaths from the terrorism totals you get a very different picture.

Since 2001 non-Iraq deaths from terrorism have declined by than 40%.

I think it is safe to say we are winning the war on terror and things should only get better.
link
The Only Thing We Have to Fear ...
If you set aside the war in Iraq, terrorism has in fact gone way down over the past five years.

You know that we are living in scary times. Terrorist groups are metastasizing all over the globe. Al Qaeda has re-established its bases in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Hizbullah, Hamas and other radical Islamic groups are gaining strength. You hear this stuff all the time, on television and on the campaign trail. Amid the din, it's hard to figure out the facts. Well, finally we have a well-researched, independent analysis of the data relating to terrorism, released last week by Canada's Simon Fraser University. Its findings will surprise you.

It explains that there is a reason you're scared. The U.S. government agency charged with tracking terrorist attacks, the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), reported a 41 percent increase from 2005 to 2006 and then equally high levels in 2007. Another major, government-funded database of terrorism, the Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terror (MIPT), says that the annual toll of fatalities from terrorism grew 450 percent (!) between 1998 and 2006. A third report, the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), also government-funded, recorded a 75 percent jump in 2004, the most recent year available for the data it uses.

The Simon Fraser study points out that all three of these data sets have a common problem. They count civilian casualties from the war in Iraq as deaths caused by terrorism. This makes no sense. Iraq is a war zone, and as in other war zones around the world, many of those killed are civilians. Study director Prof. Andrew Mack notes, "Over the past 30 years, civil wars in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Angola, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Uganda, Bosnia, Guatemala, and elsewhere have, like Iraq, been notorious for the number of civilians killed. But although the slaughter in these cases was intentional, politically motivated, and perpetrated by non-state groups?and thus constituted terrorism as conceived by MIPT, NCTC, and START?it was almost never described as such." To take just two examples, Mack pointed out that in 2004, the Janjaweed militia killed at least 723 civilians in Sudan (as documented by independent studies). The MIPT recorded zero deaths in Sudan from terrorism that year; START counted only 17. In Congo in 1999, independent studies identified hundreds killed by militia actions. The MIPT notes zero deaths that year from terrorism; and START, seven.

Including Iraq massively skews the analysis. In the NCTC and MIPT data, Iraq accounts for 80 percent of all deaths counted. But if you set aside the war there, terrorism has in fact gone way down over the past five years. In both the START and MIPT data, non-Iraq deaths from terrorism have declined by more than 40 percent since 2001. (The NCTC says the number has stayed roughly the same, but that too is because of a peculiar method of counting.) In the only other independent analysis of terrorism data, the U.S.-based IntelCenter published a study in mid-2007 that examined "significant" attacks launched by Al Qaeda over the past 10 years. It came to the conclusion that the number of Islamist attacks had declined 65 percent from a high point in 2004, and fatalities from such attacks had declined by 90 percent.

The Simon Fraser study notes that the decline in terrorism appears to be caused by many factors, among them successful counterterrorism operations in dozens of countries and infighting among terror groups. But the most significant, in the study's view, is the "extraordinary drop in support for Islamist terror organizations in the Muslim world over the past five years." These are largely self-inflicted wounds. The more people are exposed to the jihadists' tactics and world view, the less they support them. An ABC/BBC poll in Afghanistan in 2007 showed support for the jihadist militants in the country to be 1 percent. In Pakistan's North-West Frontier province, where Al Qaeda has bases, support for Osama bin Laden plummeted from 70 percent in August 2007 to 4 percent in January 2008. That dramatic drop was probably a reaction to the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, but it points to a general trend in Pakistan over the past five years. With every new terrorist attack, public support for jihad falls. "This pattern is repeated in country after country in the Muslim world," writes Mack. "Its strategic implications are critically important because historical evidence suggests that terrorist campaigns that lose public support will sooner or later be abandoned or defeated."

The University of Maryland's Center for International Development and Conflict Management (I wish academic centers would come up with shorter names!) has released another revealing study, documenting a 54 percent decline in the number of organizations using violence across the Middle East and North Africa between 1985 and 2004. The real rise, it points out, is in the number of groups employing nonviolent means of protest, which increased threefold during the same period.

Why have you not heard about studies like this or the one from Simon Fraser, which was done by highly regarded scholars, released at the United Nations and widely discussed in many countries around the world?from Canada to Australia? Because it does not fit into the narrative of fear that we have all accepted far too easily.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
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Why would you remove Iraq from the list of world terrorism? You can complain that other deaths should be attributable to terrorism in other countries and that they are not counted, but it's simply a ridiculous idea to take the place that terrorist organizations have been pouring resources into and pretend it doesn't exist to show how wonderful things have gotten.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Even assuming your speculation is correct (which it isn't) all we've had to do to lower terrorism by 40% is to kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis.

Mission accomplished!

:roll:
 

TechAZ

Golden Member
Sep 8, 2007
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
Even assuming your speculation is correct (which it isn't) all we've had to do to lower terrorism by 40% is to kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis.

Mission accomplished!

:roll:

Prove that it isn't correct

Annnnnd proof that we killed 100k innocent Iraqis. Key word on innocent, and emphasis on "we killed".

Watch this thread turn into damnation and spin and hatred for evil Bush. Instead of actually giving credit where credit is due.

EDIT: dur I can't grammar
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
The U.S. government agency charged with tracking terrorist attacks, the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), reported a 41 percent increase from 2005 to 2006 and then equally high levels in 2007. Another major, government-funded database of terrorism, the Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terror (MIPT), says that the annual toll of fatalities from terrorism grew 450 percent (!) between 1998 and 2006. A third report, the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), also government-funded, recorded a 75 percent jump in 2004, the most recent year available for the data it uses.

Oh noes! You mean the so-called scientific studies might not be right?

Terrorism is up, or is terrorism down?

Illegals costs us money, illegals make us money?

Liberals are more educated, or are conservatives more educated?

It will be decades before drilling has an impact, or will it be a matter of a few years or less?

Anybody can make any study about anything come out any way they want. This is just another example. Some here will decry this one, other will trust it.

Fern
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
Even assuming your speculation is correct (which it isn't) all we've had to do to lower terrorism by 40% is to kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis.

Mission accomplished!

:roll:

US Soldiers walked around and shot 100k innocent iraqis? :confused:
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
If you create a target-rich environment where Islamic extremists can go to kill all the "Crusaders" they want, they will kill fewer people elsewhere. This establishes "winning" in the War on Terror. Another example of brilliant reasoning from ProfJohn.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
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Originally posted by: Fern
The U.S. government agency charged with tracking terrorist attacks, the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC), reported a 41 percent increase from 2005 to 2006 and then equally high levels in 2007. Another major, government-funded database of terrorism, the Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terror (MIPT), says that the annual toll of fatalities from terrorism grew 450 percent (!) between 1998 and 2006. A third report, the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START), also government-funded, recorded a 75 percent jump in 2004, the most recent year available for the data it uses.

Oh noes! You mean the so-called scientific studies might not be right?

Terrorism is up, or is terrorism down?

Illegals costs us money, illegals make us money?

Liberals are more educated, or are conservatives more educated?

It will be decades before driulling has an impact, or will it be a matter of a few years or less?

Anybody can make any study about anything come out any way they want. This is just another example. Some here will decry this one, other will trust it.

Fern

So uh.... what do we believe then?

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
Originally posted by: TechAZ
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Even assuming your speculation is correct (which it isn't) all we've had to do to lower terrorism by 40% is to kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis.

Mission accomplished!

:roll:

Prove that it isn't correct

Annnnnd proof there we killed 100k innocent Iraqis dead. Key word on innocent, and emphasis on "we killed".

Watch this thread turn into damnation and spin and hatred for evil Bush. Instead of actually giving credit where credit is due.

What the hell are you talking about? According to Iraqbodycount.org the minimum number of people that have died in Iraq as a result of our invasion is about 85,000. They use one of the most conservative methods possible for estimating deaths, so... yeah. So what if we didn't kill them all personally? We created circumstances that directly lead to these deaths.

And again, 'credit' to Bush for lowering worldwide terrorism only works if you ignore the place where the vast majority of terrorism takes place right now. Sorry if I don't get too excited.

 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
-snip-
And again, 'credit' to Bush for lowering worldwide terrorism only works if you ignore the place where the vast majority of terrorism takes place right now. Sorry if I don't get too excited.

Gee, you sound as if you believe *fighting them over their so we don't have to fight them here* thingy is working?

;)

Fern
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
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I believe the largest disconnect is the public perception of the word "terrorist" versus the actual definition of the term... that said, there are still plenty of real terrorists who need killin' all over the world, so there won't be a shortage any time soon.

unfortunately...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
I swear people on here either don't read or don't understand what they are reading.

The figures that claim terrorism has gone up dramaticly in the last 4 years in include the Iraqis killed in their civil war.

But they don't include the people killed in Dufar or Rwanda etc etc.

If you included the number of people killed in Dufar and Rwanda in terrorism totals then the numbers from the late 90s and early 00s would go up and you would therefore see a drop in deaths via terrorism in recent years.

More importantly while terror related deaths in Iraq have spiked, terror related deaths in other parts of the world have dropped.

AQ is on the run and losing support and Islamic fundamentalists are moving away from violence. All of that is good news.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I'd also like to ask, are they counting deaths of US soldiers? Clearly, if we're in Iraq to fight terrorists, then isn't every dead US soldier a terror victim?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
-snip-
And again, 'credit' to Bush for lowering worldwide terrorism only works if you ignore the place where the vast majority of terrorism takes place right now. Sorry if I don't get too excited.

Gee, you sound as if you believe *fighting them over their so we don't have to fight them here* thingy is working?

;)

Fern

Haha, no not at all. You don't honestly believe that crap either, do you? We'll be fighting all the new terrorists we've created over there soon enough sadly.

Pro-Jo, enough with the propaganda.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
-snip-
And again, 'credit' to Bush for lowering worldwide terrorism only works if you ignore the place where the vast majority of terrorism takes place right now. Sorry if I don't get too excited.

Gee, you sound as if you believe *fighting them over their so we don't have to fight them here* thingy is working?

;)

Fern
Well, there is certainly something to be said of the moth/flame theory... seriously.

The problem is keeping the flame lit until all the moths are dead... or forever... whichever comes first. DOH!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
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Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
-snip-
And again, 'credit' to Bush for lowering worldwide terrorism only works if you ignore the place where the vast majority of terrorism takes place right now. Sorry if I don't get too excited.

Gee, you sound as if you believe *fighting them over their so we don't have to fight them here* thingy is working?

;)

Fern
Well, there is certainly something to be said of the moth/flame theory... seriously.

The problem is keeping the flame lit until all the moths are dead... or forever... whichever comes first. DOH!

Exactly.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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Fight 'em over there so we don't have to over here eh? Great reasoning, I am sure the Iraqi's appreciate us playing "Operation Hide Behind the Arab".
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
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Just curious OP...you trying to use this as a justification for the Iraq war?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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I think all this thread proves is that if you very carefully define your terms, you can find statistics that "prove" almost anything. But this is the wrong approach if you're actually looking for the truth. The appropriate methodology is to figure out the most appropriate scope of a study, THEN come up with the numbers describing that scope, rather than narrowly defining your terms to try to support a certain conclusion.

In any case, I think this is a really dumb question. People killed in conflict are still dead, whether or not we define their deaths as caused by "terrorism". If the goal is to find something for Bush supporters to celebrate, then I suppose ProfJohn's silly rules are fine. But if the goal is to make sure that people aren't being needlessly killed, well then I think ProfJohn's outlook is remarkably narrow minded.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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By the way, if I didn't make this clear in my first post, I think ProfJohn and the guy who actually came up with ProfJohn's views on this topic are completely wrong about defining deaths from terrorism. It's true that civilians die in war zones without it being terrorism, but many, if not most, of the civilian deaths in Iraq are a result of insurgent groups and outside groups intentionally targeting civilians in an attempt to force political change in Iraq. That would seem to me to be a textbook case of terrorism. The insurgents can't win militarily, so they are trying to kill enough people to harm the morale of the Iraqis and the Americans with the goal of forcing both groups to give up the fight (at least this seems to be how they view the conflict).

It's like terrorism 101 in Iraq, so it's pretty ridiculous to claim that deaths in Iraq should be totally discounted when counting the total worldwide deaths from terrorism.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
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The War on Terrorism is a war on a tactic, not a group. Therefor, such a declared war is a war without end.
And you have to ask yourself: "Why"? What would be the advantage of declaring a worldwide war without end?

 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
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Originally posted by: db
The War on Terrorism is a war on a tactic, not a group. Therefor, such a declared war is a war without end.
And you have to ask yourself: "Why"? What would be the advantage of declaring a worldwide war without end?
Exactly. Pretty much a meaningless 'study'. Like Fern and others have said, you can make a study show anything you want. Anyone who thinks America's safety, influence, strength and standing in the world in general have gone up through this Iraq adventure, please raise your hand ;)

We've helped create millions of potential new terrorists, yet at the same time we celebrate killing 10 "insurgents" every couple of weeks. Good thinking!