I've been looking at cars like the Civic, Matrix, Mazda3, etc. A wagon would be best for me as I do a lot of car camping and extra space is very nice. However the best mileage I've found for a compact wagon is about 26/32. Then yesterday I came across the TDI. Yeah it's more money (though there is a $1300 tax credit), but it gets 30/40 listed and people seem to be getting more like 35/45 in real life. It has a 14 gal fuel tank so that is one incredible range and great for trips. But I keep worrying about VW reliability. By chance are many of the common VW problems with their gas engines, and consequently something I wouldn't have to worry about with a TDI?
VW TDI any more reliable than standard VW?
- Thread starter Sukhoi
- Start date
JulesMaximus
No Lifer
- Jul 3, 2003
- 74,544
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ViviTheMage
Lifer
100% disagree.
The TDI's do seem to last a lot longer then the other engines, don't they?
the early 2000 TDI's got the best mileage...granted the new 09's are quieter then hell with still great mileage.
ViviTheMage
Lifer
JulesMaximus
No Lifer
- Jul 3, 2003
- 74,544
- 924
- 126
ViviTheMage
Lifer
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I don't recognize your authority to disagree with me!
The TDI compels me to wrong everything!
VW will have more maintenance for the diesel and probably more reliability issues.
Things change Japanese cars used to be junk, Korean cars used to be junk
As this is a new model most cars built today have way less problems than cars even built only 5 yrs ago.
You can always sell it and VW does typically hold their value. People mostly enjoy the driving dynamic of VW/German cars.
You need to go to fueleconomy.gov and start comparing vehicles you're interested in with the calculator and you plug in your real world miles and typically what you pay for fuel or even project what fuel might be down the road.
If there are many thousands differences in price it can take a VERY long time for payback but if fuel skyrockets, chops that time in half
Things change Japanese cars used to be junk, Korean cars used to be junk
As this is a new model most cars built today have way less problems than cars even built only 5 yrs ago.
You can always sell it and VW does typically hold their value. People mostly enjoy the driving dynamic of VW/German cars.
You need to go to fueleconomy.gov and start comparing vehicles you're interested in with the calculator and you plug in your real world miles and typically what you pay for fuel or even project what fuel might be down the road.
If there are many thousands differences in price it can take a VERY long time for payback but if fuel skyrockets, chops that time in half
ViviTheMage
Lifer
43st
Diamond Member
- Nov 7, 2001
- 3,197
- 0
- 0
I'm looking at the TDI wagon was well.. The TDI on Consumer Reports is better than VW's gas engine vehicles in the long run, but it still has electronics, fuel system, and 'body hardware' issues (whatever that is). What's interesting though is that the new gas Jetta (5 cylinder) is recommended, and the TDI is not. I'm not sure what accounts from this shift, maybe a model update or something.
My friend at work always has a new VW, 90 mile commute each way, every 3 years or so he gets it up around 200k miles and gives up. In 3 years he nearly always pays as much in "scheduled maintence" as the original value of the car.
The TDI will most likely get 200-300k miles, and it will cost a fortune to get there.
The TDI will most likely get 200-300k miles, and it will cost a fortune to get there.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
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Check availability and pricing of Diesel in your area, comparative to regular unleaded. This will throw off the savings you might imagine when just comparing MPG without regard to cost and availability. These factors vary DRASTICALLY by area, so check your own. Gasbuddy is helpful, as well as keeping your eyes on the numbers on your daily commute.
I have a 90 mile (total) daily commute, and sure wish there was some maintenance-free car to get me to 300k miles. I have on my work calendar scheduled when I'll hit my service intervals. My annual rate is 25k, so double that to meet someone's work buddy is 50k per year. In 3 that makes 150k. I doubt that anyone who drives that much to commute for work has much opportunity or motivation to add any significant mileage, I know I don't. I'm having a hard time adding up how someone gets to ~200k and pays about $20k for scheduled service.
That said, I am taking the time to reflect on my own experience with maintenance costs so far:
So far I am at only 40k on my 2007 Passat 2.0T due to taking from May to Dec to find a job. I've had all maintenance done at the dealership so far due to some "We Owe" business and the fact that I find it to be a fair deal for me. YMMV as scheduled maintenance pricing can vary wildly from dealer to dealer. Also, different engines/transmissions have different needs. I have the manual transmission.
Anyways, here's my out the door service costs.
scheduled 5k: $80 (est)
scheduled 10k: $80 (est)
scheduled 20k: $230ish
16" tires at 29k: $540 at a shop close to home, got Cooper CS4 to replace the stock ContiPros. Liked the OEMs but like the CS4s even better, both performance and cost. Can't rightly compare noise/comfort.
scheduled 30k: $80ish, price reduced due to no need to mess with tire/wheel - related service
scheduled 40k: $245. I have heard many pay over $400 for this one.
So far we are looking at ~$1250. I've had the car for 2 weeks shy of 2 years now. I've payed lots more for the purchase than the service.
expected 50k: $80 est.
60k (on 12/25!) $450
From there the scheduled costs are on a repeating cycle; let's say that all 10k intervals are another $300 to include tire replacement. That is 20 times $300 = $6000 for scheduled maintenance for the life of the car. Throw in another hundred for replacement windshield wiper blades over that time: mine are finally ready to be replaced (2 years on one set of blades!?!). Hardly the cost of a Kia, let alone a new VW.
Granted, some parts will fail eventually and will be expensive to repair/replace. Preventative maintenance doesn't mean nothing will ever fail. Comprehensive bumper-to-bumper warrantees don't extend to 200k miles.
No car comes standard with free replacement tires. That is half of my service expenses so far. Also, new VWs have 36k of 'free' maintenance.
I don't know what to say other than all cars have maintenance costs. Some are more than others. Some places charge more than others for the same work. CS4 tires are better in the NE Ohio snow than OEM Continentals. Premium gas costs more but gets better fuel economy for me and better performance is the killer app. The 2.0T and 6M transmission are a great match. Love the car in every respect save two: wish the paint was bullet-proof and the AC was more effective.
IMO it is best to examine your priorities and get what suits you best. All cars spend some time in the shop, all cars are complex devices. Every manufacturer makes some lemons and some bulletproof cars. I spend nearly 2 hours daily in mine, so it seemed right (and still does) to make that as pleasant/stimulating/safe an experience as possible.
p.s. brakes are another expense I haven't had yet, and neither would one who drives 50k per year. In fact I wouldn't be surprised for mine to be good until at least 60k. Call that 3 times $600 over the 200K life of the car. It is likely actually cheaper than that.
p.p.s. As my car leaves warrantee coverage I'll get a VAG-COM and take care of routine maintenance myself.
That said, I am taking the time to reflect on my own experience with maintenance costs so far:
So far I am at only 40k on my 2007 Passat 2.0T due to taking from May to Dec to find a job. I've had all maintenance done at the dealership so far due to some "We Owe" business and the fact that I find it to be a fair deal for me. YMMV as scheduled maintenance pricing can vary wildly from dealer to dealer. Also, different engines/transmissions have different needs. I have the manual transmission.
Anyways, here's my out the door service costs.
scheduled 5k: $80 (est)
scheduled 10k: $80 (est)
scheduled 20k: $230ish
16" tires at 29k: $540 at a shop close to home, got Cooper CS4 to replace the stock ContiPros. Liked the OEMs but like the CS4s even better, both performance and cost. Can't rightly compare noise/comfort.
scheduled 30k: $80ish, price reduced due to no need to mess with tire/wheel - related service
scheduled 40k: $245. I have heard many pay over $400 for this one.
So far we are looking at ~$1250. I've had the car for 2 weeks shy of 2 years now. I've payed lots more for the purchase than the service.
expected 50k: $80 est.
60k (on 12/25!) $450
From there the scheduled costs are on a repeating cycle; let's say that all 10k intervals are another $300 to include tire replacement. That is 20 times $300 = $6000 for scheduled maintenance for the life of the car. Throw in another hundred for replacement windshield wiper blades over that time: mine are finally ready to be replaced (2 years on one set of blades!?!). Hardly the cost of a Kia, let alone a new VW.
Granted, some parts will fail eventually and will be expensive to repair/replace. Preventative maintenance doesn't mean nothing will ever fail. Comprehensive bumper-to-bumper warrantees don't extend to 200k miles.
No car comes standard with free replacement tires. That is half of my service expenses so far. Also, new VWs have 36k of 'free' maintenance.
I don't know what to say other than all cars have maintenance costs. Some are more than others. Some places charge more than others for the same work. CS4 tires are better in the NE Ohio snow than OEM Continentals. Premium gas costs more but gets better fuel economy for me and better performance is the killer app. The 2.0T and 6M transmission are a great match. Love the car in every respect save two: wish the paint was bullet-proof and the AC was more effective.
IMO it is best to examine your priorities and get what suits you best. All cars spend some time in the shop, all cars are complex devices. Every manufacturer makes some lemons and some bulletproof cars. I spend nearly 2 hours daily in mine, so it seemed right (and still does) to make that as pleasant/stimulating/safe an experience as possible.
p.s. brakes are another expense I haven't had yet, and neither would one who drives 50k per year. In fact I wouldn't be surprised for mine to be good until at least 60k. Call that 3 times $600 over the 200K life of the car. It is likely actually cheaper than that.
p.p.s. As my car leaves warrantee coverage I'll get a VAG-COM and take care of routine maintenance myself.
Diesels require LESS maintenance. Service intervals are 50% longer. Diesels are more reliable than gasoline engines due to lower revving.
I was just about to say this. There is no diesel in the world that is more maintenance intensive tan a gasoline engine of the same era. Diesel engines are also more reliable to higher mileage. 350k miles for a diesel is like 150k for a gas engine. Even 500k is easily done by a diesel engine with probably just a ring replacement.
Diesels are built to much more reliable standards. Look at a diesel block and a gas block and the diesel block is always much more solid with more cooling channels.
Still it's a VW, I would watch out for electric niggles. The Germans never really understood the concept of electronics.
Yeah, but they have way MORE problems than cars built 20 years ago.
It means that the door handles will fall off before the engine stops running.
And that's not a comment on the reliability of the engine.
(Although, electronics issues aside, the mechanical parts of the engine should last forever)
I know lots of diesel drivers, neighbors on either side of me
On paper the schedule looks good, they are telling me in reality, oil changes cost 3X as much, fuel sytem maintenance and nobody has ever had the injectors last as long as suggested. Guy in the office beside me sold his truck cause everytime he took it in was a $1000 touch.
You can buy a lot of gasoline for that
On paper the schedule looks good, they are telling me in reality, oil changes cost 3X as much, fuel sytem maintenance and nobody has ever had the injectors last as long as suggested. Guy in the office beside me sold his truck cause everytime he took it in was a $1000 touch.
You can buy a lot of gasoline for that
90 mile each way, 180 round trip, $90 for dealer oil changes because a special tool is required to remove a cover to get at the oil pan, shocks struts, wheel bearings, ball joints, timing belt every 6 months at over $2k in labour, 2 turbos and thats just what I remember from having to drop him off at the dealer twice a month.
What were you driving? That is ridiculous, if you bought it new, I'd look into the state's lemon law.
It doesn't even seem believable,it almost seems like you have a dealer that is sabotaging the vehicle to get your money.
Also a diesel oil change should not be $90, thats just a scam. At the dealerships I've worked at, a 15qt oil change for a Ford Super Duty Diesel is $60(Gas 5.4L Mod V8 is ~$35-$40), a 12 quart for a Dodge Cummins Diesel is around $50(regular $35). Diesels have more engine oil than a comparable gas car of the same engine size but it should in no way cost $90, especially if I'm assuming by context it's a 1.8L VW diesel.
I drive an 06 altima, with 80k I've changed filters, oil and had a stuck rear caliper. Total I have spent to get to 80k is about $1200, 16 oil changes at ~$50, and a new set of brakes. I had the rear caliper stick at ~72k, the other 3 still had more than 60% life left, but I changed them all anyway, it was only $200
the frequent trips to the dealer are mostly oil changes. His car was a 2003 TDI Jetta. He did not change the 2nd turbo, it was the final straw for him to trade it in on another VW. The car did have nearly 300k miles on it, and he spent $15k to get it there. The last repair bill would have been about $8k. Lemon law only applies to the same thing failing over and over.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
- 0
- 56
I've owned 2 VW diesels, last was an 03 Golf.
1.) Most oil change places will refuse to change the oil because they use a cartridge rather than a canister oil filter, the $90 oil changes are real to keep your warranty, VW calls for synthetic grade diesel engine oil.
2.) Modern diesels are lighter duty engine blocks than diesels of old particularly passenger diesels.
3.) Modern diesels use many more electronic engine control systems than they used to, so the legendary troble free engines are very much like their gas brethren now.
4.) Look at the price of diesel VS the price of gas, the purchase price premium of a diesel engine, the operating expenses, and the price of diesel have pretty much killed any savings.
5.) Engine longevity isn't that great a difference now days, properly maintained gas engines can go well over 200K miles.
Unless I got an insane deal on a VW diesel, I'd buy something else. (I got the 03' Golf for the price of a gas Golf, they screwed up on the ad in the paper and ran the wrong price for a week, they had to sell me one at the advertized price or the state's attny general would have fined them. And I threatened them with exactly that
1.) Most oil change places will refuse to change the oil because they use a cartridge rather than a canister oil filter, the $90 oil changes are real to keep your warranty, VW calls for synthetic grade diesel engine oil.
2.) Modern diesels are lighter duty engine blocks than diesels of old particularly passenger diesels.
3.) Modern diesels use many more electronic engine control systems than they used to, so the legendary troble free engines are very much like their gas brethren now.
4.) Look at the price of diesel VS the price of gas, the purchase price premium of a diesel engine, the operating expenses, and the price of diesel have pretty much killed any savings.
5.) Engine longevity isn't that great a difference now days, properly maintained gas engines can go well over 200K miles.
Unless I got an insane deal on a VW diesel, I'd buy something else. (I got the 03' Golf for the price of a gas Golf, they screwed up on the ad in the paper and ran the wrong price for a week, they had to sell me one at the advertized price or the state's attny general would have fined them. And I threatened them with exactly that
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I've owned 2 VW diesels, last was an 03 Golf.
1.) Most oil change places will refuse to change the oil because they use a cartridge rather than a canister oil filter, the $90 oil changes are real to keep your warranty, VW calls for synthetic grade diesel engine oil.
2.) Modern diesels are lighter duty engine blocks than diesels of old particularly passenger diesels.
3.) Modern diesels use many more electronic engine control systems than they used to, so the legendary troble free engines are very much like their gas brethren now.
4.) Look at the price of diesel VS the price of gas, the purchase price premium of a diesel engine, the operating expenses, and the price of diesel have pretty much killed any savings.
5.) Engine longevity isn't that great a difference now days, properly maintained gas engines can go well over 200K miles.
Unless I got an insane deal on a VW diesel, I'd buy something else. (I got the 03' Golf for the price of a gas Golf, they screwed up on the ad in the paper and ran the wrong price for a week, they had to sell me one at the advertized price or the state's attny general would have fined them. And I threatened them with exactly that
Thanks for the informative post relating your direct experience with the subject at hand, and congrats on the killer deal on the ad mix-up
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