Volt Fraud at Government Motors

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Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
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0
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Here is a comparison of the volt, prius, roadster, and hymotion plug-in prius.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/4215681

This is about a year old so I dont know if the numbers have changed much but it rates the cost of a volt for driving 30 miles as $.63 vs the cost for a prius as 1.39. Over a 200 mile trip the numbers seem to flaten out a little but it still puts the volt ahead $.27
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
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That's what I thought. So basically, the volt is fine if you just want to drive 20 miles back and forth, but it costs as much as a car that is top notch and best in class for entry level luxury.

Perhaps it should have been introduced as Cadillac-only until the tech price comes down?
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
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Whats up with the partisan business news? Did we have to mention Obama's name multiple times in an article about GM?

Wasn't the GM bailout approved in 2008 as part of TARP and they got their first chunks of change in January '09? I know they got some additional loans later under Obama,

Terrible article, regardless of it's merits.
 
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trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,983
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Rushed to market as usual.

Designed by a committee of egotisitical spoiled brats I suppose, each one insisting that their idea is the better one.

Oh man, the UAW is gon'na get blamed for this one like everything else.

How did that old saying go again....something like: the unqualified telling the unwilling to do the unnecessary, ergo the Dolt.....errr, Volt.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
The only solution is allow lead back in gas.

as an aside... the Feds still allow lead in some gas although except for airplane its use is to be phased out. It is hard to phase out completely because many airplanes cannot be converted to regular gas without drastically reducing aircraft performance.

There is only one world wide supplier of gas with the lead additive. Could you imagine the environmentalists in this country screaming about building a new refinery that used lead.

It would give those volts some ooomph though.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
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In the meantime, private enterprise in the form of Nissan is chugging along with their Nissan Leaf. The leaf has a longer range on electric charge, cheaper than the volt, and will be manufactured in America, but in a state with Right-To-Work laws, so it does not get the same love as our GM that cannot survive without help from the Feds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf


For the record (from wikipedia):
GM Volt's Range: 25 to 50 miles
GM Volt's Price: $41,000

If you don't think the Leaf was heavily subsidized by the Japanese government, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. The subsidies were probably heavily disguised but for certain they were there. How do you think the Japanese and Korean carmakers got so big in the US in the first place?
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
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your not supposed to drive it. You just park in in your driveway and hope you never have to use it.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
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your not supposed to drive it. You just park in in your driveway and hope you never have to use it.

so much misinformation in this thread

head to MT and read their review on it before people spew all this nonsense.
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
1,100
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Dear god can anyone make an electric car that dosent look like ugly as hell? Is that a design feature or something?
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
so much misinformation in this thread

head to MT and read their review on it before people spew all this nonsense.

Actually, I did read the motor trend article to get a better feel for what automotive experts think about this vehicle. One part that stood out right off the bat is this:
Unlike some of the other extended range (plugs-in) hybrids being developed, the Volt is entirely driven by its 149-horsepower electric motor. The gas engine itself contributes power exclusively through its generator's output

Apparently, MT was wrong on that one.

Nothing in their review(s) changes my mind at all on this vehicle. It's an interesting thing, and probably a step in the right direction, but it only makes sense for a small set of drivers. When you drop the buzz and hype, it boils down to a vehicle that will be very fuel efficient as long as your trips are short, costs almost $41k and yet is very small compared to other cars in that kind of price class. Sure, you do get the $7500 credit, but that still leaves it significantly overpriced.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Seems like a an expensive golf cart that's only really useful if you're driving short distances. Then at night you can plug it in causing the power company to burn more coal.

I see no valid reason for it's tax credit to be higher than any other hybrid.

Fern
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,582
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Even a Prius will do ~50mpg on a long trip and the Gen 1 Insights can do 60 - 80 mpg under the same conditions.

This Volt is simply a mismarketed plug in hybrid that happens to not be a good hybrid for long distance.

the conditions that they put the car through was to run the battery down and see how it did on just gas. i'm going to guess a prius and a gen 1 insight aren't doing as well as you posted with the batteries run down.
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
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the conditions that they put the car through was to run the battery down and see how it did on just gas. i'm going to guess a prius and a gen 1 insight aren't doing as well as you posted with the batteries run down.


Two different beasts:

Stock Insight, ~750 W/HR of battery capacity - 15 minutes to charge via engine at ~10 - 15% mpg hit
My 2000 Insight has 2X the stock battery capacity .... so instead of 80 mpg I might get 65 - 75 for 30 minutes assuming I need to recharge it. I can also plugin and recharge for 10 - 15 cents of electricity.
A stock Prius has ~1.2KW/HR of battery capacity, recharge is similar to a stock Insight for recharge while driving (~10 - 15% mpg hit).

But consider both of these cars are designed to use electric in stop and go and for any other situation you need a power boost. They also have ICE's that are made for efficient cruising.

The Volt on the other hand has ~15KW/hr of battery capacity, gets great mpg for the first 40 miles as it uses no gas, but then gets ~30mpg past 40 miles and that is with it driving the car without charging the batteries. The ICE in the Volt doesn't seem to do as well efficiency wise as the other cars.


The Prius, Insight (old and new), and Ford Fusion don't take that large hit even when recharging.
 
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Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
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Seems like a an expensive golf cart that's only really useful if you're driving short distances. Then at night you can plug it in causing the power company to burn more coal.

I see no valid reason for it's tax credit to be higher than any other hybrid.

Fern

I live in IL, no coal here :)

I bet more people than you think drive less than 40 miles a day.

and electricity is cheaper at night when you would be charging the car. I would NEVER use gas if I had a volt, but I agree, its too pricey anyways.

My wifes car gets 30+ MPG and is the vehicle we take on long trips. so i guess the volt would still make more sense for that anyways
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,869
6,783
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GM has a spin for why they did it. Don't remember the particulars of the lie but something, I think, about secret technology they didn't want known, maybe something about the transmission.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,463
13,090
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The difference is that there is a mechanical connection from the gas engine to the wheels. GM had been saying the generator drives the electric motors with electricity only. There is a lengthy thread in the garage forum.

as it turns out, it's about 15% more efficient to couple the engine with the wheels rather than it as a generator in certain instances.

the volt is still the most technically advanced and practical hybrid out there by far, though.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
so much misinformation in this thread

head to MT and read their review on it before people spew all this nonsense.

No kidding. Imagine if the people in here decided to talk about politics! They'd get nowhere!
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
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GM has a spin for why they did it. Don't remember the particulars of the lie but something, I think, about secret technology they didn't want known, maybe something about the transmission.

This, until their patent was approved, they did not want to spill the beans on that specific set of information...
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
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In the meantime, private enterprise in the form of Nissan is chugging along with their Nissan Leaf. The leaf has a longer range on electric charge, cheaper than the volt, and will be manufactured in America, but in a state with Right-To-Work laws, so it does not get the same love as our GM that cannot survive without help from the Feds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf


For the record (from wikipedia):
GM Volt's Range: 25 to 50 miles
GM Volt's Price: $41,000
This is misleading in key ways as presented.

The big critical distinction is the Leaf is purely an electric. Once you run out of batteries, you are stuck until someone shows up to tow your car. This is a key limitation in a variety of respects including that the variability with how long an electric charge will last means you have to plan for Leaf trips with a safety margin to make sure you never run out of a battery charge when away from your garage. (This including accounting for accidents leading to serious jams on the way to work.)

A key problem here is that after a drive to and from work, with perhaps a detour for an errand on the way home, someone could suddenly get an emergency errand they need to run on short notice without having had time to really charge the Leaf's battery. Assuming you pay a couple thousand additional dollars to avoid the 20 hour charging time with a basically standard outlet, you're still looking at 8 hours for a full recharge. This means if you're looking at a decent emergency drive shortly after you get home from work with a drained battery, the leaf may not be able to handle it.

Another major issue is if you get hit by a major power outage at night and use most of the range of your Leaf during your drive to work at the wrong time of year, you can suddenly find yourself unable to leave for work with your Leaf and able to get there and back without needing a tow. You really need to own enough cars that the Leaf practically serves as a spare one available when you feel like using it to really get the Leaf to work.

Of course the electric only limitation prevents your from making really long trips since you can't stop for gas along the way. This also means that if you're moving a decent distance between cities, you are presumably stuck paying for someone to transport the car via a flatbed truck since the same range limitations apply in that case. (Incidentally you're going to have to pay again for the recharger installation and rewiring in the new place unless you want to be stuck with a 20 hour recharging time again.)

Basically for all the limitations you may bring up, the Volt represents a potentially far more realistic option for most potential buyers. The ability to burn gas and function as a normal car when necessary is a crucial difference.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
The ability to use gas instead of being purely electric like the leaf make a huge difference as far as I'm concerned. The leaf is an absolute "no go" for many of the reasons Aegeon mentioned.

Still, you take the volt on the highway and get up to 70 or so, and you don't have any "oomph" left. It's got lots of limitations and potential issues, and no matter how you turn it, you're getting a compact car for the price of a luxury one, just so you can save on gas. You'd have to save a hell of a lot of gas to make that worth it. Perhaps if gas prices got up to $7 per gallon or something I'd think about it, but we all know that if the price of gas went up by that much, the price of electricity would surely climb up with it.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Stolen title... but it best describes the situation. So it turns out the all electric powered Volt is actually just an expensive hybrid. I wonder why the deception to make it seem otherwise? Was GM counting on the $7500 taxpayer incentive to actually sell some of these? That amount is twice as much as the tax break for a Ford Fusion hybrid.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=550957

Don't forget about the $2500 subsidy for the home chargers, paid for by the power companies (e.g. your electric bill).
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
This POS will go over like a lead balloon. Fusion is half the cost, drives further and looks better too.
 

rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
In the meantime, private enterprise in the form of Nissan is chugging along with their Nissan Leaf. The leaf has a longer range on electric charge, cheaper than the volt, and will be manufactured in America, but in a state with Right-To-Work laws, so it does not get the same love as our GM that cannot survive without help from the Feds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf


For the record (from wikipedia):
GM Volt's Range: 25 to 50 miles
GM Volt's Price: $41,000
Yep, my parents have reserved one and most likely are going to buy it. They get a free home charger and of course, the $7500 in tax credits. They've already test drove one and they liked it. The nice things about the Leaf is that there is a 30 minute DC charger option. It's not for home, but when you're out shopping or something and the store has a charger. It's not good to make it a habit of charging that way, but at least it's an option.

It's really not THAT expensive after the tax credits. Around $25,000 or so.