Volt Fraud at Government Motors

[rudder]

Stolen title... but it best describes the situation. So it turns out the all electric powered Volt is actually just an expensive hybrid. I wonder why the deception to make it seem otherwise? Was GM counting on the $7500 taxpayer incentive to actually sell some of these? That amount is twice as much as the tax break for a Ford Fusion hybrid.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=550957

 

[Fear No Evil]

Maybe if we upped the tax incentive to $40,000?

 

[KB]

Nobody wants an all electric vehicle because they don't get enough mileage to be worthwhile for most US commuters. Since GM is so far behind everybody, especially the japanese, in terms of technology, the government has to step in to try to help them again. The American taxpayer sure hasn't gotten their moneys worth here.


Go Ford!

 

[aldamon]

WTH? I'm speechless.

 

[sunzt]

I was under the impression that this was how it was supposed to work. You go on battery for x miles then to gas when out of battery.

 

[Uhtrinity]

I was under the impression that this was how it was supposed to work. You go on battery for x miles then to gas when out of battery.

The difference is that there is a mechanical connection from the gas engine to the wheels. GM had been saying the generator drives the electric motors with electricity only. There is a lengthy thread in the garage forum.

 

[piasabird]

So what do you do with all the dead batteries?

 

[Double Trouble]

The gasoline engine has been found to be more than a range-extender for the battery. Volt engineers are now admitting that when the vehicle's lithium-ion battery pack runs down and at speeds near or above 70 mph, the Volt's gasoline engine will directly drive the front wheels along with the electric motors. That's not charging the battery — that's driving the car.

Not good. My impression was also that the engine was there simply to charge up the battery and keep it running when it starts get low. Apparently that's not true....

We heard GM's then-CEO Fritz Henderson claim the Volt would get 230 miles per gallon in city conditions. Popular Mechanics found the Volt to get about 37.5 mpg in city driving, and Motor Trend reports: "Without any plugging in, (a weeklong trip to Grandma's house) should return fuel economy in the high 30s to low 40s."

Car and Driver reported that "getting on the nearest highway and commuting with the 80-mph flow of traffic — basically the worst-case scenario — yielded 26 miles; a fairly spirited backroad loop netted 31; and a carefully modulated cruise below 60 mph pushed the figure into the upper 30s.

Holy crap that sucks donkey balls. If this is true, this thing will be the biggest fiasco in a loooooong time. Pay $40,000 for a compact car that doesn't get good mileage. Sounds like a government car alright.

 

[sunzt]

The difference is that there is a mechanical connection from the gas engine to the wheels. GM had been saying the generator drives the electric motors with electricity only. There is a lengthy thread in the garage forum.

I don't think there is a way to mechanically provide enough power to drive the electric motors without gas once the battery runs out. That sounds like common sense. I mean, once the battery runs out you can still turn the motors electricly with the gas engine by converting it into electric energy first, but that sounds more inefficient then just powering it with mechanical energy when you're out of electric due to the power requirements of all the motors especially at high speeds.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Not good. My impression was also that the engine was there simply to charge up the battery and keep it running when it starts get low. Apparently that's not true....
Holy crap that sucks donkey balls. If this is true, this thing will be the biggest fiasco in a loooooong time. Pay $40,000 for a compact car that doesn't get good mileage. Sounds like a government car alright.

Are those electric/gasoline mileage figures, or gasoline only?

 

[waggy]

no surprise. i wondered if what they were claiming was true

Nobody wants an all electric vehicle because they don't get enough mileage to be worthwhile for most US commuters. Since GM is so far behind everybody, especially the japanese, in terms of technology, the government has to step in to try to help them again. The American taxpayer sure hasn't gotten their moneys worth here.


Go Ford!

not true. i know many people that would take a electric vehicle (if it was cheap enough. $40k is not cheap).

a 80 mile range a day would be perfect for me. i just need it to get to town/school and back. i would keep my gas vehicle for long trips to say my parents or my wife's parents. But those trips are 3-5 times a year so i wouldn't use it much.

 

[MovingTarget]

There was a thread about this in The Garage lately. Yes, there is a mechanical linkage between the gas engine and the traction motor when in charge sustaining mode, and above certain speeds. This actually makes the combo more efficient at those speeds as the gas engine does have advantages in that situation that the electric motor does not. It is a very different type of hybrid than anything else on the market, and it likely still represents the future of electric propulsion. The volt still cannot operate without its electric motor unlike a prius. Fraud? No, but marketing fail, yes.

 

[Double Trouble]

It's a marketing failure in terms of misleading the public, to say the least. If there's a reason why it makes more sense to drive the wheels off the gas engine directly (as MovingTarget's post indicates), then they should have promoted it that way. Instead, they've been saying it's a full electric, not a hybrid, when in fact it's a hybrid.

More importantly though, the mileage numbers are horrible. I haven't read the Motor Trend or Car & Driver articles to see the details, but if this thing doesn't get absolutely incredible mileage (figuring out mileage with an electric vehicle is of course an issue in itself), it's dead on arrival.

 

[Schadenfroh]

In the meantime, private enterprise in the form of Nissan is chugging along with their Nissan Leaf. The leaf has a longer range on electric charge, cheaper than the volt, and will be manufactured in America, but in a state with Right-To-Work laws, so it does not get the same love as our GM that cannot survive without help from the Feds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

the Leaf's all-electric range is 100 miles (160 km) in city driving.

...

Nissan announced that the release price in the US will be US$32,780 before any applicable tax incentives (federal tax credit).

...

Assembly: Smyrna, Tennessee, United States

For the record (from wikipedia):
GM Volt's Range: 25 to 50 miles
GM Volt's Price: $41,000

 

[Elias824]

It only engages at the gas engine to actually drive the car at over 70mph, for the most part they are telling the truth. There is a limit on battery tech as well as whats reasonable to produce. Im sure wed all like to be able to drive 1000 miles on one charge, and be able to plug in for 5 minuets to recharge the battery but this is whats available. Its still better then the prius where you are going to be using the gas engine most of the time.

 

[Elias824]

Are those electric/gasoline mileage figures, or gasoline only?

yes the site gets the most shock value from adding the gas only numbers, obviously it kind of defeats the purpose of having an electric car if all you do is compare driving it running under the gas engine.

 

[Double Trouble]

yes the site gets the most shock value from adding the gas only numbers, obviously it kind of defeats the purpose of having an electric car if all you do is compare driving it running under the gas engine.

My understanding was those are not "gas only" numbers, those are essentially mixed numbers based on common driving scenarios. I dunno the details, but based on the wikipedia article listed range of 25 to 50 MPG, that's absolutely horrible. Why the heck would you want to pay top dollar for a small car with new technology that's likely to have "new technology issues", and then get mileage that you can get from any number of current vehicles for much less?

 

[techs]

The only solution is allow lead back in gas.

 

[Elias824]

My understanding was those are not "gas only" numbers, those are essentially mixed numbers based on common driving scenarios. I dunno the details, but based on the wikipedia article listed range of 25 to 50 MPG, that's absolutely horrible. Why the heck would you want to pay top dollar for a small car with new technology that's likely to have "new technology issues", and then get mileage that you can get from any number of current vehicles for much less?

Ok here as far as I know is the article they are linking.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests

"In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway."

Looks like the numbers were taken on a long trip, they mention a 600 mile trip earlier in the article but I dont know if this is where they got the numbers from. Most of the rest of the article they talk about how long of a charge they get just from the battery about 33 miles. The idea with the volt is that for your average commute you should be mostly using the battery so over short distances it should work out very well. I dont think anyone will argue that it is going to do really well over long distances and that will be a weak point of any hybrid or electric vehicle.

 

[Fear No Evil]

The only solution is allow lead back in gas.

And another trillion or 13 in new debt.

 

[werepossum]

It's a marketing failure in terms of misleading the public, to say the least. If there's a reason why it makes more sense to drive the wheels off the gas engine directly (as MovingTarget's post indicates), then they should have promoted it that way. Instead, they've been saying it's a full electric, not a hybrid, when in fact it's a hybrid.

More importantly though, the mileage numbers are horrible. I haven't read the Motor Trend or Car & Driver articles to see the details, but if this thing doesn't get absolutely incredible mileage (figuring out mileage with an electric vehicle is of course an issue in itself), it's dead on arrival.

QFT. In addition to government interference, there's also GM's financial situation - they need to get the Volt on the market as quickly as possible, even though it appears the car could have greatly benefited from another couple years of development.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Ok here as far as I know is the article they are linking.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests

"In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway."

Looks like the numbers were taken on a long trip, they mention a 600 mile trip earlier in the article but I dont know if this is where they got the numbers from. Most of the rest of the article they talk about how long of a charge they get just from the battery about 33 miles. The idea with the volt is that for your average commute you should be mostly using the battery so over short distances it should work out very well. I dont think anyone will argue that it is going to do really well over long distances and that will be a weak point of any hybrid or electric vehicle.

Even a Prius will do ~50mpg on a long trip and the Gen 1 Insights can do 60 - 80 mpg under the same conditions.

This Volt is simply a mismarketed plug in hybrid that happens to not be a good hybrid for long distance.

 

[Double Trouble]

Ok here as far as I know is the article they are linking.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests

"In addition to measuring EV range, we also recorded the fuel use when the car was in its “charge sustaining" mode. In other words, we computed the fuel economy after the battery was depleted, both on our city loop and the highway trip. In the city, we recorded 31.67 mpg and achieved 36.0 mpg on the highway. If we factor in the distance traveled on the battery's energy the fuel economy jumps to 37.5 mpg city and 38.15 mpg highway."

Looks like the numbers were taken on a long trip, they mention a 600 mile trip earlier in the article but I dont know if this is where they got the numbers from. Most of the rest of the article they talk about how long of a charge they get just from the battery about 33 miles. The idea with the volt is that for your average commute you should be mostly using the battery so over short distances it should work out very well. I dont think anyone will argue that it is going to do really well over long distances and that will be a weak point of any hybrid or electric vehicle.

That makes sense. Now, get your silly logic and sense out of here, you know there's no place for that in P&N

Perhaps my expectations were too high, no doubt reinforced by the media and GM itself, but that seems like a very poor solution, especially considering the price. If that car was going for $18k or so, it would be good.... but for $40k I can get a multitude of vehicles that kick it's ass in just about every way, and come very close in terms of mileage.

 

[Double Trouble]

Even a Prius will do ~50mpg on a long trip and the Gen 1 Insights can do 60 - 80 mpg under the same conditions.
.

That's what I thought. So basically, the volt is fine if you just want to drive 20 miles back and forth, but it costs as much as a car that is top notch and best in class for entry level luxury.

 

[CPA]

I don't think there is a way to mechanically provide enough power to drive the electric motors without gas once the battery runs out. That sounds like common sense. I mean, once the battery runs out you can still turn the motors electricly with the gas engine by converting it into electric energy first, but that sounds more inefficient then just powering it with mechanical energy when you're out of electric due to the power requirements of all the motors especially at high speeds.

Common sense for who? Engineers? Sure. The general public? I don't think so. All they've heard is "plug-in, all electric, 230 mpg, blah, blah, blah"