vista gripes

[ncage]

Ok i made a dumb move. I upgraded my main workstation to vista rtm. I am a msdn subscriber so i had no problem getting a legit copy. Anyways at first i didn't have to many compatability problems. My web cam mic didn't work but that seemed to be all. I appreciated vista security. I wish there was a way to kind of do this with xp. Run as a regular user and when you need administrative rights being able to kind of su to an administrator. I hate having to log out and log in as administrator and then log out and log back in. Takes to much work and because im a developer there is usually a ton of stuff i have to have administrative rights for. Vista does use a TON of ram. I have a machine with 1GB of memory and booting up with nothing else then the default install and its using 1/2 the memory. OK now showstopper for me. I do not know what microsoft was thinking. The main thing you would think they would get working would be their development tools. They want for developers to develop all kinds of flashy new applications that will make users want to upgrade their os to run these applications. Well guess what there are MAJOR compatability problems between vista and their main development suite "Visual Studio 2005". See here:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/aa964140.aspx

Even SP1 (in beta) has major compatability problems with vista. Microsoft also stated that Visual Studio 2003 with not be compatible. Oh yes and the new plugins for visual studio for .Net Framework 3 (flashy new vista stuff like XAML and WCF) have compatability problems with vista. You would think that this would be something microsoft would have had this in order a long time ago but they don't. I will not install vista again until they have these problems with Visual Studio fixed.

 

[stash]

Vista does use a TON of ram. I have a machine with 1GB of memory and booting up with nothing else then the default install and its using 1/2 the memory.

This is Superfetch. This is a good thing that it is using a lot of RAM.

The VS stuff sucks. But the Vista update should be out soon.

 

[ncage]

oh yes i forgot one other thing that is great about vista. I love aero glass. Now if your application crashes it doesn't screw up the rest of window and lock up the rest of windows. Now after an application is acting funky you can still get to the start bar im assuming because stuff is now rendered with the video card rather than software rendering.

 

[JasonCoder]

The vs tools issues really tick me off. I really really don't get it. How are they expecting people to code for Vista? How are they expecting people to roll this out en masse when a corp's own devs can't run it reliably for their work? I could rant on this all day.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: JasonCoder
The vs tools issues really tick me off. I really really don't get it. How are they expecting people to code for Vista? How are they expecting people to roll this out en masse when a corp's own devs can't run it reliably for their work? I could rant on this all day.

ummm...maybe they don`t expect people to code for vista..lol

 

[stash]

The problem is that VS was finished over a year before Vista was completed, so it was impossible for them to know what changes to make until Vista got closer to completion.

 

[Markbnj]

Well guess what there are MAJOR compatability problems between vista and their main development suite "Visual Studio 2005".

The vs tools issues really tick me off. I really really don't get it. How are they expecting people to code for Vista? How are they expecting people to roll this out en masse when a corp's own devs can't run it reliably for their work? I could rant on this all day.

How much have you guys actually used the tools on Vista? I'm running VS2005, with the .Net 3.0/WPF extensions. So far I have developed one program as a test using WPF, with the Cider designer, and have had no issues. VS did hang one time when I shut down Vista without closing it first, but I cancelled the shutdown and the program recovered after a moment. Other than that I haven't had any problems using it at all. Other than the incomplete WPF/WCF support (which will be coming out for release in Orcas) the tools seem to work fine.

I also haven't messed with SQL Server Manager on Vista at this point.

 

[JasonCoder]

Originally posted by: Markbnj

Well guess what there are MAJOR compatability problems between vista and their main development suite "Visual Studio 2005".

The vs tools issues really tick me off. I really really don't get it. How are they expecting people to code for Vista? How are they expecting people to roll this out en masse when a corp's own devs can't run it reliably for their work? I could rant on this all day.

How much have you guys actually used the tools on Vista? I'm running VS2005, with the .Net 3.0/WPF extensions. So far I have developed one program as a test using WPF, with the Cider designer, and have had no issues. VS did hang one time when I shut down Vista without closing it first, but I cancelled the shutdown and the program recovered after a moment. Other than that I haven't had any problems using it at all. Other than the incomplete WPF/WCF support (which will be coming out for release in Orcas) the tools seem to work fine.

I also haven't messed with SQL Server Manager on Vista at this point.

Try to debug a process yet? I whipped out the cider stuff and designed both a navigation app and a windowed app. I was impressed with the usability of the beta tools. I haven't torture tested the failure points in Vista yet as I keep most of my dev work on another box for right now. I figure they must be significant since it warrants a patch. I really don't want to be in the middle of something and find the problem.

Still, it's their problem they didn't integrate their flagship os with their dev tools. Making devs wait strikes me as a blown opportunity and general bad idea.

 

[Markbnj]

You mean attaching to a process? No. I've debugged in the integrated debugger and everything works fine.

It's a little bit much to expect every corner of the suite to work flawlessly on an OS that won't even be starting its adoption curve for a couple of months more. I guess it was the tone that sort of transmitted that the whole thing is hopelessly broken. I've been working in it on Vista for two weeks and haven't encountered a really serious issue yet, so that seems like a long way from broken.

 

[JasonCoder]

You won't hear "it's broken" from me. I'm just a little mystified that msft didn't have it's head and ass wired together for the release with studio. Boy they sure crank up the marketing dept. (msdn shows back in early '04 for instance) but somehow they can't get studio's patch until Q1 '07? You have to admit that's a bit slow.

 

[stash]

How is that slow, when Vista just RTMed in November? It was a moving target for the VS group until then.

 

[JasonCoder]

You're right. Per msft Vista is the best thing since rock n roll but we should all use notepad to write the apps that will help foster large adoption. Pardon the sarcasm but I think it would have been smart to have a team from the developer division shadow the vista guys in order to release something in tandem with the os release.

And have you seen their suggestion if you actually want to develop 1.1 apps in Vista? Develop it in a VM cuz studio 2003 don't work in Vista. That's gonna accelerate developer adoption... yeah. This is just a primo chance for jetbrains to jump up with a new ide.

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: JasonCoder
You're right. Per msft Vista is the best thing since rock n roll but we should all use notepad to write the apps that will help foster large adoption. Pardon the sarcasm but I think it would have been smart to have a team from the developer division shadow the vista guys in order to release something in tandem with the os release.

And have you seen their suggestion if you actually want to develop 1.1 apps in Vista? Develop it in a VM cuz studio 2003 don't work in Vista. That's gonna accelerate developer adoption... yeah. This is just a primo chance for jetbrains to jump up with a new ide.

This is what I'm talking about, Jason. Is it "a bit slow" as you noted in your other post? Perhaps. We all know MS struggled with Vista, but as I have seen you acknowlege elsewhere it is pretty much a monumental change in a lot of areas.

But when you suggest we all need Notepad to develop apps... that's what I meant when I said it sounded like you guys thought it was completely broken. I just finished one test program that uses WPF, I/O, serialization, reflection, and SQL Server queries and nothing broke for me. I've got all the pieces in it that you'd need for 95% of desktop applications, and I didn't run into a single problem. Sounds to me like you had a breakdown when you tried to attach to a running process to debug and now you're pissed off . With all the security changes in Vista I'm not honestly surprised that attaching to a running process has proved to be a weak point.

VS2005 is widely (and correctly in my opinion) acknowledged to be the best programming environment ever created. I don't think the fact that a patch for VS2005 will not be out until the first quarter in which the OS itself is actually released is going to create opportunities for anyone to compete with it.

 

[stash]

Pardon the sarcasm but I think it would have been smart to have a team from the developer division shadow the vista guys in order to release something in tandem with the os release

That's pretty much what happened, but it doesn't change the fact that Vista was a moving target right up until RTM. This is essentially the same problem that ISVs are having with drivers.

 

[JasonCoder]

Originally posted by: stash

Pardon the sarcasm but I think it would have been smart to have a team from the developer division shadow the vista guys in order to release something in tandem with the os release

That's pretty much what happened, but it doesn't change the fact that Vista was a moving target right up until RTM. This is essentially the same problem that ISVs are having with drivers.

I'll buy that. I think my venom comes from a combo of things:

- the partner marketing emails I get every day suggesting I be the first on my block with a confirmed and tested Vista app. You can do a lot with cider, but it's beta and does have it's breakdowns
- being spoiled from how easy it has been in the past to not have such issues. It's almost like msft is telling you to develop your vista apps on xp.
- I still do a lot of 1.x dev. This is possible only within a vm on vista.

Having said that I think Vista is a positive thing and of course I like VStudio alot.

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: JasonCoder

Originally posted by: stash

Pardon the sarcasm but I think it would have been smart to have a team from the developer division shadow the vista guys in order to release something in tandem with the os release

That's pretty much what happened, but it doesn't change the fact that Vista was a moving target right up until RTM. This is essentially the same problem that ISVs are having with drivers.

I'll buy that. I think my venom comes from a combo of things:

- the partner marketing emails I get every day suggesting I be the first on my block with a confirmed and tested Vista app. You can do a lot with cider, but it's beta and does have it's breakdowns
- being spoiled from how easy it has been in the past to not have such issues. It's almost like msft is telling you to develop your vista apps on xp.
- I still do a lot of 1.x dev. This is possible only within a vm on vista.

Having said that I think Vista is a positive thing and of course I like VStudio alot.

I hear you there. I am still using VS2003 as well, but I have found dual-booting to be the right solution for the moment.