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Vista Drops Support For Hardware Sound?

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
First off, this is pretty much Operating Systems material, but considering the hardware aspect, posting it there wouldn't be doing it justice, so just work with me here.😛

That said, Creative has posted a rather long explanation of Windows Vista's audio system, and why their drivers for it have been in such poor shape. There's a lot of good details in there, so I won't make myself redundant, but if Creative is being honest here and not spinning things, it's a pretty massive change.

Basically, Microsoft is doing a two-in-one job of moving most audio systems from kernel code to user-land code, and restructuring the system so that a lot of traditional hardware functions are now part of the operating system. In short, anything that uses DirectSound or other Windows interfaces is now being run through a software audio renderer that reduces the audio hardware to a DAC and little else. The main implication of this is that all hardware acceleration goes out the window, along with EAX effects or post-mixing processes such as HRTFs for positional audio; according to Creative the new system doesn't allow games using DirectSound to connect to the hardware to do this any more. This would be for both new and old games.

Instead, OpenAL appears to be the solution. Games using OpenAL do not have to go through the Vista audio system, and can still directly connect to the hardware. Of course, OpenAL has more or less been a joke for years, the only time it's brought out is when the Doom 3 engine is used where they use Open*L languages. Of course, since Creative is about the only party supporting OpenAL on the Windows side, this isn't hurting their position either.

At any rate, I'm surprised this hasn't come to light sooner. If what Creative says is true(and at this point I don't see anything glaringly wrong to contradict them), then Vista's native audio system is useless for serious gaming because it doesn't allow hardware a place in rendering audio. All of a sudden, Vista isn't looking like a good upgrade.
 
Of course, OpenAL has more or less been a joke for years, the only time it's brought out is when the Doom 3 engine is used where they use Open*L languages
There are quite a few games that use OpenAL. Most Quake 3 engined games use it, as do most Unreal games.
 
or it's a good thing since msft is basically killing eax and allowing an open standard like openAL to flourish.

a hardware maker like creative controlling the api ruined the sound market
 
A good find indeed.

If true, its things like this that make early adoption a bad move. Let the enthusiast community weasel out details that may be important to you, then decide to buy or not.
 
Are all sound cards suffering from this change in Vista? I mean are all sound card Vista drivers in a poor condition like Creative's?
 
I wonder if this has implications with regards to the people that have found ways around DRM using the hardware in/out to re-record info...

Personally I pay for my music, & firmly believe artists have a right to be paid for thier work, but I hate all the DRM being shoved down our throats & have concerns aobut Microsofts intentions.

Just curious if this is in any way related.
 
If it kills EAX then it's a good thing.

Without closed standards maybe Creative will actually have some healthy competition.
 
Creative has an equally interesting explanation of why they haven't released Audigy or X-Fi cards in PCIe format: Link
 
Originally posted by: Operandi
If it kills EAX then it's a good thing.

Without closed standards maybe Creative will actually have some healthy competition.

Don't get your hopes up. The sound card business isn't exactly a profitable sector.
 
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Operandi
If it kills EAX then it's a good thing.

Without closed standards maybe Creative will actually have some healthy competition.

Don't get your hopes up. The sound card business isn't exactly a profitable sector.

It doesn't have to be when you no longer require a hardware DSP. Open source audio engines running to a simple output device is win-win.
 
Originally posted by: her34
or it's a good thing since msft is basically killing eax and allowing an open standard like openAL to flourish.

a hardware maker like creative controlling the api ruined the sound market
EAX isn't a competitor to OpenAL. OpenAL is a language for interfacing with sound cards, EAX is a language for describing how to modify audio based on occlusions and the like. Given how this setup is described, it sounds like there no replacement for EAX at the hardware level, though I'm not sure if this means a full implementation couldn't be done in software by the game itself. Of course, audio is a non-trivial load on systems right now just when we're talking about comparing integrated solutions to full-blown audio cards, so if it was all done in software I'm sure we'd be talking about a sizable performance loss(and I'm sure there are other aspects I'm not thinking of).

I don't suspect that anyone would try to design something to replace EAX anyhow, due to profitability and likelyhood of Creative suing them(see: Creative's silly large patent portfolio). In the mean time it seems like all non-OpenAL games are regulated to basic 3D sound under Vista.

As an aside, I honestly think a lot of this has to do with DRM. Creative only quickly mentions it, but it sure will be harder to break a DRM signal if it's all handled by a Vista black-box.

PS hurtstotalktoyou, Audition uses ASIO I believe, so it bypasses Windows
 
Let's be careful not to blow this out of proportion. That doesn't really mean there's no hardware acceleration. It just means that stuff is being put more in userland to strengthen kernel stability. It is the same thing they're doing with the graphics framework (legacy OpenGL has to be emulated for example). Let me know if I'm missing something though.
 
There is a very long thread posted in the HTPC forum over at AVS on audio processing in Vista.

Linky

The thread (over 300 messages) was started by a Microsoft programmer working on the audio interface. It's aimed at HTPC usage, but there may be some discussion of the issues that others will face.
 
I'm concerned whether someone with an X-Fi; whom for example enables the HRTF process for headphones and also has headphone virtualization enabled by default in windows, a process which I believe is enabled automatically upon selecting headphones, will experience conflicts.

Would Vista identify the X-Fi's process and warn the user that both are enabled simultaneously or will it just ignore the problem and allow them to duke it out while playing? I'm curious to find out.
 
Originally posted by: xtknight
Let's be careful not to blow this out of proportion. That doesn't really mean there's no hardware acceleration. It just means that stuff is being put more in userland to strengthen kernel stability. It is the same thing they're doing with the graphics framework (legacy OpenGL has to be emulated for example). Let me know if I'm missing something though.
Creative's writeup seems to be pretty clear on the subject. Using DirectSound results in Vista doing all of the audio processing and just dumping PCM streams to the sound card. The user-land stuff is separate, in that it's just something that Microsoft is doing along with moving all the processing to Vista, they could still do all the processing in the kernel as far as that is concerned.
 
Can't apps still use OpenAL/ASIO to get direct hardware access? I think it just means legacy DirectSound apps will be emulated in software. Not really ideal but there's still some hope for hardware sound acceleration in the future.
 
Originally posted by: NanoStuff
I'm concerned whether someone with an X-Fi; whom for example enables the HRTF process for headphones and also has headphone virtualization enabled by default in windows, a process which I believe is enabled automatically upon selecting headphones, will experience conflicts.

Would Vista identify the X-Fi's process and warn the user that both are enabled simultaneously or will it just ignore the problem and allow them to duke it out while playing? I'm curious to find out.
Based on what was written, it doesn't look like X-Fi HRTFs will be usable at all for DirectSound.
 
Originally posted by: xtknight
Can't apps still use OpenAL/ASIO to get direct hardware access? I think it just means legacy DirectSound apps will be emulated in software. Not really ideal but there's still some hope for hardware sound acceleration in the future.
Of course, and that's the solution Creative is advocating. However, that means everyone will have to start using OpenAL for games, and not every sound card supports OpenAL, nor do devs necessarily want to give up using DirectX components. And in the mean time everything that's already made that is not OpenAL or not made with OpenAL in the future will be gimped.🙁
 
Originally posted by: Navid
Are all sound cards suffering from this change in Vista? I mean are all sound card Vista drivers in a poor condition like Creative's?

Yeah. I'm having lots of stuttering problems with my Santa Cruz. Anytime the OS does something important the sound cuts out since it doesn't have top priority. It sucks.
 
Originally posted by: mayest
There is a very long thread posted in the HTPC forum over at AVS on audio processing in Vista.

Linky

The thread (over 300 messages) was started by a Microsoft programmer working on the audio interface. It's aimed at HTPC usage, but there may be some discussion of the issues that others will face.

let me get this correct....
Your suggesting reading a thread that has 300 messages that may or may not have anything to do with these issues???
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: mayest
There is a very long thread posted in the HTPC forum over at AVS on audio processing in Vista.

Linky

The thread (over 300 messages) was started by a Microsoft programmer working on the audio interface. It's aimed at HTPC usage, but there may be some discussion of the issues that others will face.

let me get this correct....
Your suggesting reading a thread that has 300 messages that may or may not have anything to do with these issues???



This is a cup 1/2 full, cup 1/2 empty deal.

I say you're close, but not correct. The poster suggests nothing for the reader. The poster provides a link and a loose summary of more detailed information. If you're interested, you would look there. If you're not interested (I am not) you wouldn't want to. You say why are you telling me to read the link. I say thanks for providing it. Thanks mayest.


Jim
 
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