Vietnamese vs Afghans: who were better at guerrilla warfare?

[brainhulk]

dense jungle cover might have been op, but afghans have better caves?

 

[BoomerD]

I dunno...just kill them all...let whatever imaginary sky-fairy they have sort it out.

 

[TuSpockShakur]

More than 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam. I think they were many times more effective.

 

[core2slow]

Vietnamese have extensive caves filled with various traps that would make any guerrilla fighter blush. There's a YT vid (or was it a special on PBS?) documenting the sickening traps of barbaric proportions that the VC deployed during the war. They have ambush techniques high up in the jungle and can scrap just as efficient using tunnels and caves.

 

[twinrider1]

I wonder, how would we fight the Viet Nam war if it happened today.

 

[keird]

I wonder, how would we fight the Viet Nam war if it happened today.

Spooky. A lot of Spooky and thermal imaging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130

 

[Ruptga]

I wonder, how would we fight the Viet Nam war if it happened today.

Hopefully we would have the good sense to nope right out of the country. The entire rationale for our involvement in that conflict, Domino theory, was just propaganda like the missile gap before it, and the bomber gap before that one.

 

[IronWing]

I dunno...just kill them all...let whatever imaginary sky-fairy they have sort it out.

The Vietnamese didn't have one; that's why we had to kill them.

 

[manly]

Hopefully we would have the good sense to nope right out of the country. The entire rationale for our involvement in that conflict, Domino theory, was just propaganda like the missile gap before it, and the bomber gap before that one.

404 U.S. Foreign Policy good sense not found

 

[gururu2]

The fact that Afghanistan's terrain and fierce populace has been the single factor responsible for keeping out every foreign occupier tells me Afghanistan > Vietnam

 

[K7SN]

More than 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam. I think they were many times more effective.

58,200 if you count the hundred + Canadians who enlisted in the US. Sadly that number is just a mouse fart compared to what the Vietnamese suffered. Remember they First Indochina War; and the millions that died there.

Add those who died at the hands of the Japanese in the greater 2nd Sino-Japanese War (July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945) to the that millions died of violence or famine in Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam from 1945 to 1989, floods often aided in intensity by protagonists including in Vietnam where the US seeded the monsoon clouds from 1967 to the public found out about it in 1972. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye

There were a lot more causalities and war dead than those involved in Afghanistan and remember the Afghan's defeated the Russians and are still persisting in resistance; that conflict is not over even if any hope of resolution. The point is every guerilla in Afghanistan isn't striving for the same reason; most just want intruders out of their little place of the world and don't want a unified Afghanistan.

The reason the OPs poll is so one sided is because the difference in magnitude is so overwhelming that only a clueless can equate less than 2,500 Americans to 58,000 or a total killed Afghans and Americans (military and defense contractors and other outsiders which is less than 100,000 to totals that are a minimum of 25 time greater. All loss of life has a price; I don't want to trivialize the sacrifices of those involved with Operation Enduring Freedom but consider these statistics: http://www.britannica.com/event/Vietnam-War

The human costs of the long conflict were harsh for all involved. Not until 1995 did Vietnam release its official estimate of war dead: as many as 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters. The U.S. military has estimated that between 200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war. In 1982 the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated in Washington, D.C., inscribed with the names of 57,939 members of U.S. armed forces who had died or were missing as a result of the war. Over the following years, additions to the list have brought the total past 58,200. (At least 100 names on the memorial are those of servicemen who were actually Canadian citizens.) Among other countries that fought for South Vietnam on a smaller scale, South Korea suffered more than 4,000 dead, Thailand about 350, Australia more than 500, and New Zealand some three dozen.

brainhulk the Afghan caves are for hiding from drones and fighter jets; the guerrilla fight mostly takes place on the government's turf. The last thing the cave dwellers want is to be discovered at home. If you can find a Tunnel Rat; there is a big difference between eradication of cave-dwellers and entrenched Vietcong.

About 1980 (December 1979) Russian started the fight in Afghanistan which has continued for 35 years; The French started the fight in1887 in Vietnam which continued till late 30's when the Japanese to the role of invader for 7 years; then the French again until 1954 then mainly the US till Saigon fell at the end of April in 1975 (88 years); the Vietnamese have had more time to suffer and profect their brand of guerilla warfare. .

 

[BoomerD]

The Vietnamese didn't have one; that's why we had to kill them.

They didn't need a gawd...they had Uncle Ho.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Back in the days of William Wallace the nation state had advantages in numbers and equipment but the ratio was sometimes manageable enough that it was possible for an insurgent like Wallace to win using similar techniques as there opponent. This is not possible today as the ratio of power a nation state like the USA has over an insurgent force is orders of magnitude greater. Any insurgent force that chooses to fight the USA straight up will be decimated in minutes!

So, what are the options that an insurgent force has today when facing a nation state military? Answer: what you see them doing!

The English got a taste of this a couple hundred years ago during the Revolutionary War. The USA got a taste of this in Viet Nam. The Russians got a taste of this in Afghanistan. And the world is seeing this play out in many places today.

This is the new norm and we should better get used to it as there's 1.6B people that form the nucleus of the jihadist and insurgents. It only takes a small percentage of the 1.6B Muslims of this world to make life difficult for us if they are willing to die for there cause. It is the fact that many of them are willing to die that makes this modern insurgency and terrorism different. A decade ago Foxnews was big on re-branding the suicide bombers as homicide bombers and it was a HUGE mistake as it permitted us to discount this most important fact -- they were and are willing to die for there cause.


Brian

 

[zinfamous]

More than 50,000 Americans died in Vietnam. I think they were many times more effective.

way different type of warfare, because of tech, in those days.

 

[zinfamous]

58,200 if you count the hundred + Canadians who enlisted in the US. Sadly that number is just a mouse fart compared to what the Vietnamese suffered. Remember they First Indochina War; and the millions that died there.

Add those who died at the hands of the Japanese in the greater 2nd Sino-Japanese War (July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945) to the that millions died of violence or famine in Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam from 1945 to 1989, floods often aided in intensity by protagonists including in Vietnam where the US seeded the monsoon clouds from 1967 to the public found out about it in 1972. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye

There were a lot more causalities and war dead than those involved in Afghanistan and remember the Afghan's defeated the Russians and are still persisting in resistance; that conflict is not over even if any hope of resolution. The point is every guerilla in Afghanistan isn't striving for the same reason; most just want intruders out of their little place of the world and don't want a unified Afghanistan.

The reason the OPs poll is so one sided is because the difference in magnitude is so overwhelming that only a clueless can equate less than 2,500 Americans to 58,000 or a total killed Afghans and Americans (military and defense contractors and other outsiders which is less than 100,000 to totals that are a minimum of 25 time greater. All loss of life has a price; I don't want to trivialize the sacrifices of those involved with Operation Enduring Freedom but consider these statistics: http://www.britannica.com/event/Vietnam-War


brainhulk the Afghan caves are for hiding from drones and fighter jets; the guerrilla fight mostly takes place on the government's turf. The last thing the cave dwellers want is to be discovered at home. If you can find a Tunnel Rat; there is a big difference between eradication of cave-dwellers and entrenched Vietcong.

About 1980 (December 1979) Russian started the fight in Afghanistan which has continued for 35 years; The French started the fight in1887 in Vietnam which continued till late 30's when the Japanese to the role of invader for 7 years; then the French again until 1954 then mainly the US till Saigon fell at the end of April in 1975 (88 years); the Vietnamese have had more time to suffer and profect their brand of guerilla warfare. .

All great points, but can't you essentially trace the Afghan's knowledge back to being the only territory to successfully defend against the invading Greeks (Alexander)? I think they have a rather long history of this type of warfare, as well. Though maybe not as continuous an invading/occupying force.

 

[poofyhairguy]

way different type of warfare, because of tech, in those days.

And because of sensibilities.

I mean back then the US would just dump napalm all over the warzone, including in countries that were not even Vietnam, killing military and civilians. Modern warfare is go door-by-door and street-by-street to make sure you don't hurt innocents.

Vietnam was the last really brutal US war, and in a way its brutality made us lose our stomach for that kind of fighting.

 

[SP33Demon]

I wonder, how would we fight the Viet Nam war if it happened today.

Robots, drones, pinpoint gps accuracy, underground thermal IR remote sensing, etc.

The VC were surprisingly sophisticated with electricity in their underground tunnels powered by bicycles. Their tripwires were also a thing of genius (underwater, punji spikes on the side of paths to dive into, tunnel grenades, etc).