Vietnam Part II?

[ndee]

?

 

[EagleKeeper]

It will depend on the political will.

Will they allow the military to finish the job that they were sent to do?

 

[Zebo]

Tactically it's not even close. We can pick them off until there is no more. Not the same supply routes, Not the same numbers. Not the same replacments. Not the same terrian to make warfare difficult.

Stratigically it bears very similar parallels. A population who hates us. A population where we don't know the enemy. A population willing to fight fanatically. Very expensive. No end game.

 

[Passions]

If Bush gets re-elected, it will eventually become a Japan/Germany.

If Kerry gets elected, expect another Vietnam.

Make your decision, the fate of a country depends in November.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I think there are interesting parallels to say the least.

I think in terms of international relations, OIF is almost certainly worse than Vietnam, in which we were at least acting to prop up an existing government. OIF seems to be a nakedly offensive operation against a country posing no foreseeable danger to the US (which is even more problematic since, at the exact time we started the war, North Korea was actively and openly developing nuclear weapons and threatening to use them, and any of several other nations in SW Asia had active WMD programs and/or demonstrable ties to terrorism). This has had a grave impact on our relationships with allies, and the current prisoner abuse scandal, unless it is handled aggressively and openly, will aggravate the problem to no end.

IMO the main similarity is that the war is being conducted under tight control and supervision (and arguably hamstrung) by DoD civilians in the US. In Vietnam this initially took the form of requiring all targeting to be vetted through command chains to military and civilian leaders in DC, rather than leaving it to the operators and local commanders who had eyes on target. In OIF, this takes the form of DoD trying to wage the war without allocating adequate manning and resources. In both cases, it inhibits the ability of individual GIs to perform their missions in the theater of combat.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Passions
If Bush gets re-elected, it will eventually become a Japan/Germany.

If Kerry gets elected, expect another Vietnam.

Make your decision, the fate of a country depends in November.

LOL - your sense of humor is growing on me!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Here is a really interesting piece by Col (ret) Hackworth on how Iraq troops are being sold short in terms of their preparation and equipment. A few excerpts:

Deploying without sufficient armor and then having to fly 70-ton Abrams tanks to Iraq is as flaky as almost everything else about a war where politicians were proclaiming just a year ago that once we drained the swamps, the rest would be rice and flowers.
. . .
It?s no wonder that the Pentagon will soon ask we-the-people for additional billions of dollars to continue pursuing the greatest military miscalculation in our country?s history. Meanwhile, the meter?s already closing on $300 billion, 800 dead and more than 22,000 battle and non-battle casualties.

Central Command?s Maj. Gen. John Sattler says that based on the changing situation in Iraq, he requested more tanks and armored Bradley Fighting Vehicles.

Hello? What changing situation? During the months they were preparing to deploy, pals of mine in all three divisions have been groaning to me that they were parking their heavy stuff in the motor pool to go in light. These sergeants, lieutenants and captains already saw that the insurgency struggle in Iraq was getting worse daily, that improvised explosive devices and ambushes were the enemy?s weapons of choice, and that only armor would protect them while they tried to defeat a basically inept but fanatical foe.

But the high brass, from SecDef Donald Rumsfeld down, diligently ignored the fact that guerrilla resistance in Iraq was growing stronger and bolder with the passage of each bloody week.
. . .
Until Desert Storm, our military did a pretty good job profiting from the lessons of Vietnam. But then the brass became drunk on their splendid 100-hour victory and concluded that ?Shock and Awe? with fewer ground troops and lighter equipment would do the whole trick in future conflicts.

So this time around we went into Iraq criminally short on boots and heavy gear. And one year later, our military?s senior commanders still don?t get what's going down in the killing fields of Iraq, nor are they listening to what their warriors are telling them.

 

[Zebo]

I agree with hack but you still have to get out of the tank sometimes. The situation itself is screwed and while we certainly could and should let the military do its job and equip them as well as we can, it does'nt change the fact we are losing the "hearts and minds" and stratigically. Unfortunatly no governemnt official is talking about full democratic elections and ASAP pull out which would end the voilence almost immidiately. We have an alterior motive, to install a former pro US general as a dictator and the majority shia and shiite know this an will raise havock until the poltical situation is somewhat fair and reprsentative.

 

[chess9]

Iraq has become exactly like Vietnam in the most important respects:

1. American men and women are dying for NO GOOD CAUSE;
2. The war is a half-assed hack job by a cold warrior who doesn't have a clue what he is doing (Rumsfeld);
3. The U. S. will back out of Iraq under almost identical circumstances to the way we left 'Nam.
4. The right wing will bitch for years that it was Clinton's fault, just like 'Nam was Clinton's fault.
5. Finally, when we leave, we will have left the country much worse than when we arrived and all hell will break lose.

Anyone who thinks we can "WIN" this war in Iraq needs some serious medication. We will never win because although you can occupy a nation you can't make the people love you. In our case, we aren't even tolerated.

We need to get out of Iraq now before any more of our citizens are killed and before we do even more damage to our country and to Iraq.

-Robert

 

[Zebo]

Anyone who thinks we can "WIN" this war in Iraq needs some serious medication. We will never win because although you can occupy a nation you can't make the people love you. In our case, we aren't even tolerated.
----
Exactly. The whole conduct by the US during this after war period has fostered the resentment. It's undemcratic future plans. It's selling out iraqi assests to wall street (i've posted in this so many times). Protecting revenue streams (oil) while ignoring cultural and civic instillations. (not eveyone lives for money believe it or not) It's privatizing all business to who know whom, mostly shady deals. It's installing a expat felon to lead the country. Our indicrimminate and sometimes brutal house to house searches which are very hummilating to Iraqis if done by amatuers (jr enlisted reservists).

For two months after the war there was a dead calm. With Iraqis taking a wait and see approach to our intensions. Since that time it's painfully obvious we are not there to liberate, or for WMD, or for democracy. We are there to shape Iraqis as capitalist westeners with heavy wall street connections which is an impossibily as far as I can tell.