Vietnam-era whistle-blower says Iraq war is 'unwinnable'

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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From the Sunday New Jersey Star-Ledger, a story about a true American hero, exactly the kind of person America needs today.

I hope there is someone in Washington today with the moral strength of Daniel Ellsberg, someone to bring down this administration of liars, cowards, war profiteers, and traitors. Just one someone with the courage and access to do what Daniel Ellsberg did -- even with the knowledge of the price they may have to pay.

The future of America, the nation we once knew, stands in the balance.

Vietnam-era whistle-blower says Iraq war is 'unwinnable'

By Nyier Abdou
Star-Ledger Staff

One-time Pentagon whistle-blower Daniel Ellsberg warned yesterday that U.S. military involvement in Iraq was as "unwinnable" as the Vietnam War and that a draft and military rule in this country were conceivable.

The former Marine and Vietnam-era military analyst told local activists at New Jersey Peace Action's 48th annual soup luncheon fundraiser yesterday that another terrorist attack by Islamic militants on U.S. soil would rally Americans around the president and open the door to such extreme measures as internment camps for Middle Easterners and a new Patriot Act "that will make the first Patriot Act look like the Bill of Rights."

"We're facing that possibility," Ellsberg said. "Under those circumstances, it is not just possible, but highly likely."[/b]

More than 400 N.J. Peace Action members and supporters, drawn in large part by the star power of the controversial Ellsberg, gathered at Columbia High School in Maplewood. Many were turned away at the door, said Executive Director Madelyn Hoffman.

"There seems to be an overall shift in what people are thinking and want to see in this country," Hoffman said. "I think there are more and more people saying, ?Who are we? And what are we becoming? This is not America."

People lined up to get signed copies of Ellsberg's 2002 memoir "Secrets," while during lunch, a steady stream of well-wishers knelt by Ellsberg's table and thanked him for his actions in the anti-war movement.

"He's a hero -- he really is," said Harvey Zangar, 63, of West Milford. The Irvington native said he was heartened by the turnout. "It's nice to see people coming out to see what the truth is," he said.

Fueled by caffeine and green tea, Ellsberg, 74, was energetic and jocular, mimicking the voices of Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger with gusto as he read from his memoir.

In 1971, Ellsberg leaked 7,000 pages of classified documents about White House deceptions in the run-up to the Vietnam War.

The release of the so-called Pentagon Papers, first published in the New York Times, sparked a national uproar and politically embarrassed the Nixon administration.

Hoping to smear Ellsberg, who was charged with 12 counts of felony and faced 115 years in prison, the White House organized a break-in into his psychiatrist's office to unearth damaging information that could be leveraged to prevent further leaks.

Ellsberg was later acquitted when the actions of the Nixon administration came to light. Yesterday, he claimed the Bush administration was repeating Nixon's mistakes by going after White House critic Joseph Wilson and exposing his wife, Valerie Plame, as a covert CIA agent.

"History is repeating itself," Ellsberg told a reverent crowd that gave him a standing ovation. He said the "almost identical replay" extended to the way the Bush administration "lied us into war."


He also said the Iraqi insurgency was as indomitable as Vietnam.

"I do not believe the other side is going to quit a resistance to American occupation in Iraq -- ever," Ellsberg said.

He implored officials with crucial information to come forward sooner rather than later.

"They should consider giving up their careers and take the kind of risks our soldiers are being asked to take," Ellsberg said in an interview before his talk. "I assumed that I was breaking the law. I assumed I would go to prison for the rest of my life."

He added that whoever leaked information about alleged secret interrogation centers in Eastern Europe "absolutely behaved in an exemplary way."


He disagreed that revelations about the prisons and abuse of Iraqi detainees in Iraq were too inciteful to be publicized and would endanger troops in Iraq.

"There could have been costs, but it seem to me there's no way of remedying the wrongdoing without bringing it out," Ellsberg said. "I would say there is an argument on both sides, but to my mind, one side is very much better than the other."

"I certainly took the risk of being judged wrong," he said.


Staff writer Joe Ryan contributed to this report.

Sunday New Jersey Star-Ledger
November 13, 2005
Section One Page 13

No URL -- story not available online

 

Shuxclams

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,286
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But, but, but, my hero McCain wants to send more troops.

McCain needs to be the hero that Ellsberg is.



While I agree w/Sen McCain in the assesment that we need to 'finish' the job we started in Iraq for our own safety, we would have been far safer had we not been mis-led into a war like this and without finishing the "real" job in Afganistan.


The proponderance of evidence is leading us to manipulation of facts leading up to the Iraq war a,d the PlameGate investigation may finally shed some light on this subject once all is said and done..... but thats my opinion.









SHUX
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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Originally posted by: Shuxclams
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But, but, but, my hero McCain wants to send more troops.

McCain needs to be the hero that Ellsberg is.



While I agree w/Sen McCain in the assesment that we need to 'finish' the job we started in Iraq for our own safety, we would have been far safer had we not been mis-led into a war like this and without finishing the "real" job in Afganistan.


The proponderance of evidence is leading us to manipulation of facts leading up to the Iraq war a,d the PlameGate investigation may finally shed some light on this subject once all is said and done..... but thats my opinion.









SHUX

America needs one true patriot to explode Bush's entire lie just the way Ellsberg did to Nixon.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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0
PS While I agree that America can't simply abandon the mess Bush has made of Iraq, I believe that our continued occupation is counter-productive to the goal of an independent Iraq.

I'm not the only one who thinks so. And I also feel that the right wingers who continue to suppport the occupation should either institute a draft or put their money where their mouths are and sign up -- it just isn't right to send the same troops back into the shooting gallery for tour after bloody tour.

U.S. 'can't maintain Iraq troop levels'

By JOHN P. GRAMLICH
UPI Correspondent

WASHINGTON, Nov. 11 (UPI) -- Unless the Bush administration significantly cuts American troop levels in Iraq next year, the U.S. military's roughly 140,000-strong presence there will become a detriment to America's national security, according to a report released this week.

In the latest instance of foreign policy experts calling for the Bush administration to set a timetable for U.S. troop reductions in Iraq, the Center for American Progress, a think tank headed by President Bill Clinton's former chief of staff John Podesta, Wednesday said the future of America's military hangs in the balance.

"It has become clear that if we still have 140,000 ground troops in Iraq a year from now, we will destroy the all-volunteer army," said the a report written by the center's Lawrence Korb and Brian Katulis. Korb served as assistant secretary of defense under President Ronald Reagan.

The United States must reduce troop levels in Iraq, ideally with 80,000 leaving the country in 2006 and most of the rest leaving by the end of 2007, to avoid losing a broader "struggle against violent extremists" that goes beyond Iraq, the report says.

A timetable for U.S. troop reductions would carry the additional benefit of putting pressure on Iraqi leaders to stabilize the country quickly, Korb said during a panel discussion at the center on Wednesday -- an argument recently used by Democrats including Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware and Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan.

However, the Bush administration has given no indication that it will introduce one -- and no "responsible administration" would, according to James Dobbins, a panelist at the discussion and director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center at the nonprofit RAND Corp.

"I don't think that any responsible administration would either articulate or allow themselves to be held to a deadline or schedule," Dobbins said, "which doesn't mean that its opposition can't propose it."

The eight page report by Korb and Katulis calls for the redistribution of American military power, taking troops out of Iraq and relocating thousands to Kuwait, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa and southeast Asia. All National Guard and Reserve troops would return to the United States under the proposed plan.

The new locations of troops currently deployed in Iraq would better confront a global terrorist threat and give reserve units a much-needed rest, according to the report.

"Crouched in the trenches in Iraq, the Bush administration has lost sight of the broader battlefield in a global war against multiple networks of violent extremists," the report says, specifying Somalia, Sudan and the Philippines as "breeding grounds for terrorists.

Beyond forcing Iraqi politicians to compromise with one another when the country's first permanent postwar government takes control in January 2006, the proposed reductions of American troops would also speed up the U.S.-led training of the Iraqi military, Korb said.

The training of the Iraqi military has gone slowly because there has been a lack of motivation, Korb said, noting that American troops regularly enter combat situations with only basic training.

"We take young men and young women and we send them to three months of training and (then) send them to places like Iraq and Afghanistan, so it's not a question of training," he said. "It's really motivation, and if we give them a deadline, that should be the motivation they need. And if it's not, they'll never get it."

Army basic training, in fact, lasts nine weeks and is followed by advanced training in the soldier's job specialty. The Army says advanced infantry training immediately after basic lasts 14-16 weeks, for example, while intelligence training lasts more about 28-29 weeks.

While some experts said setting a timetable for troop reductions could not hurt because the U.S. military would eventually have to leave Iraq anyway, others sharply disagreed.

While the Bush administration is unlikely to announce a timetable for troop reductions, the CAP plan is probably similar to what Bush policymakers have in mind anyway, according to Dobbins, of RAND.

U.S. military planners, administration officials and critics on both the right and left all seem to have different agendas for troop reductions in Iraq, but each group essentially has the same aim -- to have most American troops out of the country by the end of 2007, Dobbins said.

"I think (the new report) is exactly what the U.S. military plan is and I think it's exactly what the administration and the president hopes can take place by then," he said. "The problem is that each of these constituencies, if you will, is speaking for a different audience."
 

slyedog

Senior member
Jan 12, 2001
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didnot beleive Ellsberg then and dont beleive him now

something else-- what would the people think of bush if he won in Afganistan and the troops came home with saddam still in power in iraq?
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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Originally posted by: BBond

America needs one true patriot to explode Bush's entire lie just the way Ellsberg did to Nixon.



Already happened and was ignored.

Early in the first term there was a swarm of inner circle advisors who resigned and went public over the deception that the
country was having pulled over it by the Bush Cabal.
Those people were shouted down, Joe Public didn't want to beleive that their Emperor had no clothes.
One day the countryside wakes up - and finds the fog has lifted, and there's a naked Joker running aimlesly around the Whithouse,
Talking in Tounges, and mumbling Fuzzy Math.

Now - those people who resigned have been in some of those policy meetings where the War Strategy was first gamed,
they know where the skeletons are hidden in which closets, and they know which documents and records were kept where,
and by a page and line testimony of a Federal Prosecuter there could yield quite a bit of conspiracy theory, exposed it - then it's fact.

Can Bush and Cheney invoke National Security to cover their asses, if, in fact, there was a pre-set agenga that was mined
for a predetermined cause - if the facts show otherwise, and Political pressure alone was used fraduently as the justification.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
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Originally posted by: BBond
From the Sunday New Jersey Star-Ledger, a story about a true American hero, exactly the kind of person America needs today.

I hope there is someone in Washington today with the moral strength of Daniel Ellsberg, someone to bring down this administration of liars, cowards, war profiteers, and traitors. Just one someone with the courage and access to do what Daniel Ellsberg did -- even with the knowledge of the price they may have to pay.

The future of America, the nation we once knew, stands in the balance.

Vietnam-era whistle-blower says Iraq war is 'unwinnable'

By Nyier Abdou
Star-Ledger Staff

One-time Pentagon whistle-blower Daniel Ellsberg warned yesterday that U.S. military involvement in Iraq was as "unwinnable" as the Vietnam War and that a draft and military rule in this country were conceivable.

The former Marine and Vietnam-era military analyst told local activists at New Jersey Peace Action's 48th annual soup luncheon fundraiser yesterday that another terrorist attack by Islamic militants on U.S. soil would rally Americans around the president and open the door to such extreme measures as internment camps for Middle Easterners and a new Patriot Act "that will make the first Patriot Act look like the Bill of Rights."

"We're facing that possibility," Ellsberg said. "Under those circumstances, it is not just possible, but highly likely."[/b]

More than 400 N.J. Peace Action members and supporters, drawn in large part by the star power of the controversial Ellsberg, gathered at Columbia High School in Maplewood. Many were turned away at the door, said Executive Director Madelyn Hoffman.

"There seems to be an overall shift in what people are thinking and want to see in this country," Hoffman said. "I think there are more and more people saying, ?Who are we? And what are we becoming? This is not America."

People lined up to get signed copies of Ellsberg's 2002 memoir "Secrets," while during lunch, a steady stream of well-wishers knelt by Ellsberg's table and thanked him for his actions in the anti-war movement.

"He's a hero -- he really is," said Harvey Zangar, 63, of West Milford. The Irvington native said he was heartened by the turnout. "It's nice to see people coming out to see what the truth is," he said.

Fueled by caffeine and green tea, Ellsberg, 74, was energetic and jocular, mimicking the voices of Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger with gusto as he read from his memoir.

In 1971, Ellsberg leaked 7,000 pages of classified documents about White House deceptions in the run-up to the Vietnam War.

The release of the so-called Pentagon Papers, first published in the New York Times, sparked a national uproar and politically embarrassed the Nixon administration.

Hoping to smear Ellsberg, who was charged with 12 counts of felony and faced 115 years in prison, the White House organized a break-in into his psychiatrist's office to unearth damaging information that could be leveraged to prevent further leaks.

Ellsberg was later acquitted when the actions of the Nixon administration came to light. Yesterday, he claimed the Bush administration was repeating Nixon's mistakes by going after White House critic Joseph Wilson and exposing his wife, Valerie Plame, as a covert CIA agent.

"History is repeating itself," Ellsberg told a reverent crowd that gave him a standing ovation. He said the "almost identical replay" extended to the way the Bush administration "lied us into war."


He also said the Iraqi insurgency was as indomitable as Vietnam.

"I do not believe the other side is going to quit a resistance to American occupation in Iraq -- ever," Ellsberg said.

He implored officials with crucial information to come forward sooner rather than later.

"They should consider giving up their careers and take the kind of risks our soldiers are being asked to take," Ellsberg said in an interview before his talk. "I assumed that I was breaking the law. I assumed I would go to prison for the rest of my life."

He added that whoever leaked information about alleged secret interrogation centers in Eastern Europe "absolutely behaved in an exemplary way."


He disagreed that revelations about the prisons and abuse of Iraqi detainees in Iraq were too inciteful to be publicized and would endanger troops in Iraq.

"There could have been costs, but it seem to me there's no way of remedying the wrongdoing without bringing it out," Ellsberg said. "I would say there is an argument on both sides, but to my mind, one side is very much better than the other."

"I certainly took the risk of being judged wrong," he said.


Staff writer Joe Ryan contributed to this report.

Sunday New Jersey Star-Ledger
November 13, 2005
Section One Page 13

No URL -- story not available online

Kind of true. The same libarals are trying to get us to put our tails between our legs and run to hide that forced us out of Vietnam two weeks before Ho Chi manh was going to surrender. 52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for nothing.

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
The extreme hardline right great figures such as nixon said that for years...oh hes gonna surrender soon! hold the course! here it comes this time. hold on! wait lets invade here too, victory is in sight!

That war was another pointless lie also too, are you ever going to learn?

How many must die becasue of the chickenhawks gullibility and "courage"

So, I know you are a bush defender, kinda curious to know if you were saying the same thing in the mid 70's about nixon.

Are you trying to avenge your hero nixon condor?
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
Originally posted by: slyedog
didnot beleive Ellsberg then and dont beleive him now

something else-- what would the people think of bush if he won in Afganistan and the troops came home with saddam still in power in iraq?


Mission accomplished??
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for nothing

There were over 58K Americans lost in 'Nam - I think it is counted at 58,226, MIA notwithstanding.

Cambodia ? Pol Pot's regime was in the aftermath of the US leaving the area, we made no effort to contain it or stop it.
The Cambodian Genocide was stopped by Vietnam - when they invaded it as a means to protect their newly reunited Country.

<NOT A GOOD OMEN>
1970, Prince Sihanouk was ousted, not by Pol Pot, but due to a U.S.-backed right-wing military coup. An embittered Sihanouk retaliated by joining with Pol Pot, his former enemy, in opposing Cambodia's new military government. That same year, the U.S. invaded Cambodia to expel the North Vietnamese from their border encampments, but instead drove them deeper into Cambodia where they allied themselves with the Khmer Rouge.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

<NOT A GOOD OMEN>
1970, Prince Sihanouk was ousted, not by Pol Pot, but due to a U.S.-backed right-wing military coup. An embittered Sihanouk retaliated by joining with Pol Pot, his former enemy, in opposing Cambodia's new military government. That same year, the U.S. invaded Cambodia to expel the North Vietnamese from their border encampments, but instead drove them deeper into Cambodia where they allied themselves with the Khmer Rouge.

A very good point, more meddling by the US ends up in genocide of the people.

Hmmm what other leader does this remind me of? *cough* saddam *cough* obl

right wingers put fingers in ears and repeat after me LA LA LA LA LA they only hate our freedoms and its all their religions fault, stay the course! LA LA LA LA

(Sorry to hijck the rest of your exellent post Cap'n)
 

mackle

Senior member
Dec 30, 2004
257
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0
Ohh man I have to hijack this post (just alittle..hope you don't mind). Would anyone consider the side effects of the Vietnam's war have anything to do with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet control in West Germany? Imagine how much money resource did the Russian put in to help the North Vienamese, because of that..Russia made itself broke!!!!!
52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for nothing
if you have considered something like that, of course it mean something now right??
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
That would be Soviet-Afghanistan War (1979-1988) that killed the su's economy leading to the fall of the su, not vietnam.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: slyedog
didnot beleive Ellsberg then and dont beleive him now

something else-- what would the people think of bush if he won in Afganistan and the troops came home with saddam still in power in iraq?

Would have been fine by me. We got the guys who directly supported 9/11, and took out a government that posed a threat to the US in the form of support to Osama bin Laden.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: slyedog
didnot beleive Ellsberg then and dont beleive him now

something else-- what would the people think of bush if he won in Afganistan and the troops came home with saddam still in power in iraq?

Would have been fine by me. We got the guys who directly supported 9/11, and took out a government that posed a threat to the US in the form of support to Osama bin Laden.

The fact that Iraq posed no threat to our nation and Bush's excuses for his unprovoked attack against them were nothing but a pack of lies seems not to bother the right wing warmongers here, even though one would think they would have learned something from their complete folly in Vietnam.

If Bush had won in Afghanistan (pretty funny -- :laugh: -- an unconscious admission that Bush hasn't won in Afghanistan -- mainly due to the fact that the moron took our armed forces off on his charade in Iraq) there was no reason whatsoever for attacking Iraq. Can't you people understand that a war based on lies cannot accomplish any good result?

YOU CANNOT WIN A WAR THAT IS BASED ON A LIE. YOU LOSE BEFORE YOU BEGIN.

YOU CANNOT ACCOMPLISH GOOD BY DOING EVIL.


 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Kind of true. The same libarals are trying to get us to put our tails between our legs and run to hide that forced us out of Vietnam two weeks before Ho Chi manh was going to surrender. 52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for nothing.

QFT.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Condor
Kind of true. The same libarals are trying to get us to put our tails between our legs and run to hide that forced us out of Vietnam two weeks before Ho Chi manh was going to surrender. 52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for nothing.

QFT.

52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for a lie.

 

tommywishbone

Platinum Member
May 11, 2005
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I'm glad to see that some of the pro-war folks are acknowledging that Iraq is exactly like Vietnam and therefore the same course of action is unwise.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
I'm glad to see that some of the pro-war folks are acknowledging that Iraq is exactly like Vietnam and therefore the same course of action is unwise.

I don't see any characterization of the sort ... except from idiots like Ted Kennedy.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
I'm glad to see that some of the pro-war folks are acknowledging that Iraq is exactly like Vietnam and therefore the same course of action is unwise.

I don't see any characterization of the sort ... except from idiots like Ted Kennedy.

Then you haven't read much in this thread ,including the OP, or you aren't capable of understanding what you're read.

Judging by your incessant, blind partisan rages, I hold that the latter is more likely the case.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
I'm glad to see that some of the pro-war folks are acknowledging that Iraq is exactly like Vietnam and therefore the same course of action is unwise.

I don't see any characterization of the sort ... except from idiots like Ted Kennedy.

What about your own post a few posts up doing a QFT on Condor's silly idea of what happened in Vietnam. For guys who don't think Iraq is like Vietnam, you guys sure do bring it up a lot.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: Condor
Kind of true. The same libarals are trying to get us to put our tails between our legs and run to hide that forced us out of Vietnam two weeks before Ho Chi manh was going to surrender. 52 thousand Americans and 4.2 million Cambodians lost for nothing.

QFT.

You guys just can't let the Vietnam war go...can you? You just can't admit that it was a bad idea, doomed to failure from the start. We weren't two weeks away from victory, otherwise not even the most anti-war liberal would have been against finishing the job. The fact is that all we were faced with was a quagmire of epic proportions brought on by stupid foreign policy decisions. That's it. Give it up.

Jeez, and you guys give the left crap for not "getting over" an election that was a year ago.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
The extreme hardline right great figures such as nixon said that for years...oh hes gonna surrender soon! hold the course! here it comes this time. hold on! wait lets invade here too, victory is in sight!

That war was another pointless lie also too, are you ever going to learn?

How many must die becasue of the chickenhawks gullibility and "courage"

So, I know you are a bush defender, kinda curious to know if you were saying the same thing in the mid 70's about nixon.

Are you trying to avenge your hero nixon condor?

I'm not so much a Bush defender as I am a liberal offender. Bush reacts from principle, libs from hate of being losers. They never listen to logical, proven debate, so that only leaves barbed one liners. Anything else is a waste of effort.