Question [Videocardz] 3060 8 GB and 3060 Ti GDDR6X coming

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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,674
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Assuming the 3060 8 GB is just a BOM reduction and the 3060 Ti GDDR6X is just getting rid of excess 19 gbps GDDR6X.

Videocardz clams that these will launch at the end of October.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,624
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Dumb people can't help that their are dumb and don't deserve to be ripped off because of it.

Besides, it's also bad for us consumers when companies don't compete on who provides the best value, but who can scam the best.
You call them dumb, I call them willfully ignorant. They are clued in enough to buy a retail GPU, then they can get clued in enough to know what they are buying.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
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Not if Nvidia is intentionally trying to cheat them!

They can do their due diligence and look at 3060 reviews, but then not notice that the review is for a different version of the 3060. You specifically need to know that Nvidia is trying to cheat you, to know that most 3060 reviews are not applicable to this card.

Having to know this goes way beyond basic knowledge about upgrading a GPU or doing a normal amount of research into products you buy.

I call them willfully ignorant.

It's not willfull ignorance if they never knew that a weaker variants exists, because Nvidia intentionally seeks to keep consumers in the dark by not having a press event, not sending out review samples, not giving it a different name, etc.

I have a serious problem with your victim blaming. The hate you seem to have, comes across as really toxic to me.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,918
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You call them dumb, I call them willfully ignorant. They are clued in enough to buy a retail GPU, then they can get clued in enough to know what they are buying.

This isn't some kind of elaborate scam on the part of Nvidia, just a matter of people not bothering to do any research. I would agree that it's on them to put in a minimum amount of effort. Caveat emptor!

The flip side is that it's a free market and if people actually think the Nvidia card is worth the asking price, who are we to say they're wrong? It's their money and if they didn't think it was worth the cost they wouldn't have bought it. JHH isn't holding a gun to anyone's head here or even anything close to that.

If any of us could figure out a way to charge more for our labor and other people we're glad to pay it, we'd all do it. I doubt anyone would describe it as ripping someone off either.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
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This isn't some kind of elaborate scam on the part of Nvidia, just a matter of people not bothering to do any research.

This is just false. A normal amount of research for video cards involves looking at reviews for the basic model, like a 3060, 3070, 6700 XT, etc. Nvidia requires that AIB's put the base model name in a standard location because they know this and want to condition consumers to think that they can trust this info.

The scam on the part of Nvidia is that they then use the same model name for a weaker product, while even trying to prevent reviewers from covering it. So there is a good chance that consumers who actively follow one or a few reviewers will miss this information. People who actively follow reviewers on a certain topic are already going beyond a standard level of due diligence. I buy many products without constantly keeping track of what happens in that field and I bet that you and DAPUNISHER do the same.

I would agree that it's on them to put in a minimum amount of effort.

I think that it is absurd to claim that a minimum amount of effort is enough. For example, if I google for the "ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 3060 OC Edition 8GB GDDR6," then I don't get any specific reviews for that card. So to find reviews, you need to search for something more generic.

Reviewers, (social) media people and commenters typically talk about the model, without the memory. Even for models with two variants, like the 3080 10 GB and 12 GB versions, they/we typically just refer to them as the 3080. So it's perfectly logical for people to think that within the word salad, this is the part of the name that matters. It almost always does and that impacts how information gets shared. If they search for '3060', they will indeed find a ton of reviewers who treat the model name as the only or the most significant part.

And it was, until very recently, where Nvidia intentionally introduced a much weaker version, without giving it a different name, like they normally do for substantially weaker variants. When someone does something that logically results in certain expectations, but they don't meet those expectations, that is what fraud is.

The flip side is that it's a free market and if people actually think the Nvidia card is worth the asking price, who are we to say they're wrong?

It's wrong when they get defrauded because they think they get the performance of a 3060, while they actually get the far weaker performance of the 3060.

That I could write the sentence that way is exactly why Nvidia is being deceptive and why it is logical for people to be deceived and not a sign that they didn't put in a minimal effort.

If any of us could figure out a way to charge more for our labor and other people we're glad to pay it, we'd all do it.

I wouldn't deceive people, harming them for my benefit.
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,624
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Victim blaming and toxic? After this discussion, I vote we leave the SJW stuff out of hardware discussions. :rolleyes:

GPU shoppers are not victims. No one forces them to buy anything. Buying a card without doing due diligence is on the buyer, period. And it's pretty rich you coming at me after calling those same people dumb.
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,750
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Should have been a 3050 Ti but I do feel people are getting their knickers in a twist because it's Nvidia. It has 8G on the box, in the name then you should know it's not a 12G card.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,768
4,736
136
Victim blaming and toxic? After this discussion, I vote we leave the SJW stuff out of hardware discussions. :rolleyes:

GPU shoppers are not victims. No one forces them to buy anything. Buying a card without doing due diligence is on the buyer, period. And it's pretty rich you coming at me after calling those same people dumb.
Yep. we so often feel we have to choose a guilty side. Well, both are guilty. The buyer and the seller, and pretending we have to protect the innocent does not apply.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,422
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@DAPUNISHER

Companies trying to defraud customers and people then blaming customers for getting defrauded is way older than SJW stuff and has nothing to do with it.

There is still a reasonable level of due diligence to expect and an unreasonable level. I think that selling a far weaker card with the same name requires an unreasonable level of due diligence for a regular customer to figure out.

@DeathReborn

But the difference is not just the amount of memory, but the bus size and the number of cores, which are not on the box!
 
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maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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@DAPUNISHER

Companies trying to defraud customers and people then blaming customers for getting defrauded is way older than SJW stuff and has nothing to do with it.

There is still a reasonable level of due diligence to expect and an unreasonable level. I think that selling a far weaker card with the same name requires an unreasonable level of due diligence for a regular customer to figure out.

@DeathReborn

But the difference is not just the amount of memory, but the bus size and the number of cores, which are not on the box!
Makes the world interesting, differing opinions. Best not to make as absolutes (reasonable/unreasonable). Bad outcomes for all, if attempted. I have always blamed myself for poor decisions.
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,750
746
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@DAPUNISHER

Companies trying to defraud customers and people then blaming customers for getting defrauded is way older than SJW stuff and has nothing to do with it.

There is still a reasonable level of due diligence to expect and an unreasonable level. I think that selling a far weaker card with the same name requires an unreasonable level of due diligence for a regular customer to figure out.

@DeathReborn

But the difference is not just the amount of memory, but the bus size and the number of cores, which are not on the box!

It's not on the front but it is on the back, it's just like looking at the ingredients of food to check for nuts, you check the thing you buy. Throwing around "defraud" isn't going to help you arguments, it's why I don't think people who get it wrong are stupid & I don't think the company is breaking the law.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
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It's not on the front but it is on the back, it's just like looking at the ingredients of food to check for nuts, you check the thing you buy. Throwing around "defraud" isn't going to help you arguments, it's why I don't think people who get it wrong are stupid & I don't think the company is breaking the law.

This is just false. The bus width and memory bandwidth are not on the back of the box:

 
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Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,382
1,262
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Victim blaming and toxic? After this discussion, I vote we leave the SJW stuff out of hardware discussions. :rolleyes:

GPU shoppers are not victims. No one forces them to buy anything. Buying a card without doing due diligence is on the buyer, period. And it's pretty rich you coming at me after calling those same people dumb.

Uh, it is victim blaming. Not that gpu customers shouldn't do more homework. Sadly, in any number of industries, the average customer doesnt care or want to have to spend a lot of time researching stuff. Human nature, whatever you want to blame it on.

That said, it is scummy to not name this a 3050ti, a 3060 LE or 8GS or SE or whatever name variant. Nvidia has become notorious on this over others in the PC industry. HUB made this point in their video showing the box art. Its not just the ram amount and the boxes aren't stating it has less cuda cores or lower memory bus. On Newegg, you have to go look at the specs list and track the manufacturer model numbers carefully.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,908
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Wonder WTF Nvidia would do if AMD's N33 came out swinging at $450/$350 price points and just mopped the floor with the 3060's.

-Given current market pricing, I guess we know the answer is "nothing" because people will spend the same or more money for substantially less performance so long as the card is branded Nvidia.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,918
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The scam on the part of Nvidia is that they then use the same model name for a weaker product, while even trying to prevent reviewers from covering it.

Scummy behavior sure, but not a scam. A model number is just a meaningless name, not a guarantee of anything.

Compare this with people selling a card on eBay or some other site that's some old card that's been physically modified to appear to be something else and has the firmware modified to misreport information about the card.

That's the problem with calling shady behavior a scam. There are actual scammers that are defrauding people. If you wanted to rag on NVidia, maybe point to some of the behavior that actually got them in legal trouble like the RAM debacle with the 970.

Could NVidia be less scummy? Sure, and at the same time the customer could be less of an idiot as well. If they acted like you then they clearly wouldn't be getting duped in your opinion. I feel no remorse for people making poor purchasing decisions of their own volition. If anything buying something at a lower cost than you think it ought to be is just your own greed overriding rationality which is how people get bit by actual scammers.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,389
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A model number is just a meaningless name, not a guarantee of anything.
I disagree that a model string is meaningless. If it were, then those fake cards on ebay would be seen as legit. After all, whatever they choose to call it is "meaningless"...

To me, a model string represents a *particular* product, with certain *specifications* (at a minimum) that can be referenced.

The only thing that keeps the 8GB 3060 from being an actual scam by Nvidia, is that they choose to update the specifications.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,978
126
3060 8GB is deceptive on nVidia's part for sure. As per HWUB video, the packaging hides you're getting a much slower 8GB part. It should've been called a 3055 or something to make it clearer.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,674
5,300
136
I think that an otherwise identical 6GB part with 1GB chips would have been ok. Guess those are not even produced.

The 3060 12 GB has six 2 GB chips. The 8 GB cuts that to four. That's where the BOM savings comes from.

Cost difference between a 1 GB and 2 GB chip probably isn't much now.
 

desrever

Member
Nov 6, 2021
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GPU shoppers are not victims. No one forces them to buy anything. Buying a card without doing due diligence is on the buyer, period.
This is some messed up attitude. Either you are ok with scamming or scamming is ok as long as it's Nvidia that does it?

Let me just sell all my old GPUs as 3060s. If the buyer feels ripped off, they didn't do enough research by reading this forum post.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,194
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Why didn't they use the GDD6X on the 3060 8GB to make up for the reduced memory bus width? Maybe that's not even cheaper? but then why are they making a GDDR6X 3060 Ti.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,918
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I disagree that a model string is meaningless. If it were, then those fake cards on ebay would be seen as legit. After all, whatever they choose to call it is "meaningless"...

Mislabeling a product to intentionally pass it off as something it isn't is fraud.

AMD or NVidia reusing a model number or making slight variations on it isn't the same.

If you buy a 1060 3 GB thinking it's as good as a 1060 6 GB because you haven't done your homework that's on you. If you buy what you think is a 1060 and it's actually some ancient card that's been altered and hacked to misrepresent itself, that's on someone else.

Personally I'm way more concerned with people being mislead due to features like DLSS 3 inflating frame rates in benchmarks than I am with people buying a crap card because the branding is confusing. But I wouldn't call either of those things a scam.

Because here's the ultimate rub. A company can be as shady as imaginable or as they legally can be without breaking any actual laws, but an educated consumer base won't be taken advantage of because they aren't susceptible to the shady tactics. In the other hand, a company can be as upright as possible, but idiot consumers will still make bad purchasing decisions because they're idiots. At least there's a financial incentive for a consumer to fix his behavior.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,624
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This is some messed up attitude. Either you are ok with scamming or scamming is ok as long as it's Nvidia that does it?

Let me just sell all my old GPUs as 3060s. If the buyer feels ripped off, they didn't do enough research by reading this forum post.
You have engaged me poorly. It is riddled with fallacies. You hit me with argumentum ad hominem as the lead off. Your hypothetical scenario as a seller is not only a strawman, it is argumentum ad absurdum. You make a query/accusation that is a false dichotomy.

Mislabeling a product to intentionally pass it off as something it isn't is fraud.

AMD or NVidia reusing a model number or making slight variations on it isn't the same.

If you buy a 1060 3 GB thinking it's as good as a 1060 6 GB because you haven't done your homework that's on you. If you buy what you think is a 1060 and it's actually some ancient card that's been altered and hacked to misrepresent itself, that's on someone else.

Personally I'm way more concerned with people being mislead due to features like DLSS 3 inflating frame rates in benchmarks than I am with people buying a crap card because the branding is confusing. But I wouldn't call either of those things a scam.

Because here's the ultimate rub. A company can be as shady as imaginable or as they legally can be without breaking any actual laws, but an educated consumer base won't be taken advantage of because they aren't susceptible to the shady tactics. In the other hand, a company can be as upright as possible, but idiot consumers will still make bad purchasing decisions because they're idiots. At least there's a financial incentive for a consumer to fix his behavior.
Precisely. Though I think referring to the customers as idiots is harsh, despite being potentially accurate.

Nvidia is developing an Apple like following. Where nothing outside of their ecosystem is considered. The old adage states that if it isn't broke don't fix it. The 1060 3GB sold well, and the owners raved about it. The 8GB 3060 will be the same way I surmise. More importantly, I think it is what Nvidia surmises.