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Video of Army troops leaving Haliburton drivers to fend for themselves

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,210
456
126
These guys make the wrong turn then get ambushed and military takes off, can't believe they don't even have a gps like Magellan or Garland which on their salaries should be easily affordable.:(

Video of ambush NSFW

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,268
4
0
Originally posted by: 1prophet
These guys make the wrong turn then get ambushed and military takes off, can't believe they don't even have a gps like Magellan or Garland which on their salaries should be easily affordable.:(

Video of ambush NSFW
It was actually a national guard unit that left him behind.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,199
4
76
According to Countdown, the troops actually spread out to try and secure the area so reinforcements could get there.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Speaking without breaking OPSEC, I can tell you that the unit in charge did the right thing. You NEVER stay in the kill zone. Go to Ogrish.com and see some of what happens to idiots that do.

The front element left the kill-zone, and continued on to regroup, secure, and asses the situation. The rear security element at this time was also working to prevent further deaths and to help with security. Once again, without violating OPSEC, I can tell you that there are resons that they didn't call the hit truck or return to the scene, at least until the area was no longer hot.

I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.

As for GPS....they cannot tell you squat about whether a road is ending when they (the roads) can change in that hell-hole n just a few months. Traffic navigation in Iraq is HARD. Even if you now a ten-digit grid, it won't tell you if the Iraqis have closed off a road, or if the insurgents have blown it.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,988
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.
QFT. They sign a contract with Halliburton and they know full well the risks, as do many other Americans who do various contract work over there. That doesn't make it any better for those who lost their lives or their families, but I see the OP trying to play the blame game. Halliburton is a favorite target of certain people here.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.
Soldiers and Marines know what they're getting into when they join the army or marines, what's your point?
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,530
0
0
Isn't the issue not with Haliburton here but with the troops that left this guy to die?

I promise you that if that truck was being driven by one of their own, they wouldn't have left him/her there.
 

River Side

Senior member
Jul 11, 2006
234
0
0
Originally posted by: NeoV
I promise you that if that truck was being driven by one of their own, they wouldn't have left him/her there.
congratulations for grasping the obvious.. the troops aren't responsible for these mercenaries.. the grunts lay it down for less than half of what these drivers are getting.. why in the world should they play escorts to them again?
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Soldiers and Marines know what they're getting into when they join the army or marines, what's your point?
Yup! And I'm going back in a couple of months.

Isn't the issue not with Haliburton here but with the troops that left this guy to die?
Did you not read the thread first? the soldiers did what they are trained to do. They did not leave him behind. What, did you think tha he extracted himself, then walked home? They got him out without killing anyone else. They sacrificed one of their own for the truck drivers safety. what do you want to happen, that everyone rushes willy nilly back into the kill-zone and dies to protect one guy?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: 1prophet
These guys make the wrong turn then get ambushed and military takes off, can't believe they don't even have a gps like Magellan or Garland which on their salaries should be easily affordable.:(

Video of ambush NSFW
please look up the acronym "SOP".

sad? yes. necessary? also yes.

the criticism of this is what happens when non-military folks try to play Army from the sidelines 10000 miles away.

g'day.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,660
4,482
126
Aren't there Iraqis who know how to drive trucks? I don't see why we need to Americans over there to do that work.
But also, I don't blame the troops for not wanting to get shot up over some guys who are just there to make a quick buck.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
344
126
No one has yet mentioned the Iraqi lives that are at risk by our people being there.

The fact that some people are poor and can really use the $90K doesn't for a minute mean we should see them as expendable, their lives as less valuable.

Others are born better off and need not take that risk - good for them, and it's too bad for the guy who has less.

We need a government that will *really* determine whether it's possible to stabilize the situation there and get out, what's needed - instead of the corrupt regime we have now with its own private agenda where it's pursuing war that just happens to greatly enrich its donors and get it the political ratings they need to keep power and enrich yet more donors, while exploiting good Americans' willingness to support the military efforts.

We should not forget, either, that many innocent Iraqis and I'll include Iraqis who don't want their country occupied, just as we wouldn't, are tragically hurt by the war too.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,827
2,928
126
Wow, what a crappy situation. Can't really blame the military for doing what they did IMO, they had no idea at the time what they were up against.

That said, I really doubt that these Private Contractors had any idea what they were getting into when signing up. I'm sure they were told it was risky, maybe even told they could die, but it's dangerous just crossing the street and you could die doing that too. It takes actual experience or, in this case, footage of the kind of things that may happen before one can really know what the risks are. What kind of info Private Contractors receive before signing up I don't really know, but I wouldn't be surprised if such detailed info as shown in this video gets glossed over.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,210
456
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: maluckey
I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.
QFT. They sign a contract with Halliburton and they know full well the risks, as do many other Americans who do various contract work over there. That doesn't make it any better for those who lost their lives or their families, but I see the OP trying to play the blame game. Halliburton is a favorite target of certain people here.
If anyone is to blame it is the cheaper is better, outsource everything mentality prevalent today. There was a time when such convoys would have been staffed with armed military troops who would have had the ability to fight back instead of waiting to be killed in their disabled truck.



 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,054
0
71
When an ambush occurs, the lead and trailing personel/vechilces get out of the Kill-Zone, secure the forward and trailing positions,
clear the flanks and then - and only then, attempt to evacuate those who were snared in the trap.

Any other response places excessive risk of loss of personel within the primary Kill-Zone, and the concentration of targets
exposed to the enemy risks the lives of those who would be trying to execute the rescue efforts.

In other words - don't give the enemy an expanded choice of pinned down targets.

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,387
140
116
Did you guys see those Iraqis throwing flowers and candy?

Must've been rock candy from the sound of it.
 

imported_Baloo

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2006
1,784
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
Speaking without breaking OPSEC, I can tell you that the unit in charge did the right thing. You NEVER stay in the kill zone. Go to Ogrish.com and see some of what happens to idiots that do.

The front element left the kill-zone, and continued on to regroup, secure, and asses the situation. The rear security element at this time was also working to prevent further deaths and to help with security. Once again, [without having a clue], I can tell you that there are resons that they didn't call the hit truck or return to the scene, at least until the area was no longer hot.

I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.

As for GPS....they cannot tell you squat about whether a road is ending when they (the roads) can change in that hell-hole n just a few months. Traffic navigation in Iraq is HARD. Even if you now a ten-digit grid, it won't tell you if the Iraqis have closed off a road, or if the insurgents have blown it.
What a load of crap. Let?s examine this. SOP for those pulling escort duty is to abandon those they are escorting, leaving the area, and wait either for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop? What then is the point of an escort if it's not to protect those they are escorting? Hmm, so if I understand this correct, if GWB?s limo is attacked and disabled, his secret service escorts are to leave the area, leaving Bush to fend for himself, and wait for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop. No, can you not see the utter absurdity of your statements?

Now that's just an examination of your first paragraph. the second paragraph is guessing - you have no idea what they were really doing. You need to watch the video, you will see the rear group moving around the disabled trucks and also leaving the area. In addition, it's hit trucks, not "hit truck" -- all 5 trucks were disabled, only one truck driver survived. Are you sure you watched the video? It is quite clear that the escort were either cowardly, or ordered to abandon the trucks. If this is so, then this could only have been a setup The drivers probably would have fared better without a US military escort to draw attention that's not going to stick around when that attention comes.

Now your third paragraph. this is very revealing. This suggests a motive for abandoning those drivers, it also suggest those escort personnel may be guilty of treason.

One last thing, an escort serves to protect, not themselves, but those they are escorting. If what this video shows is typical, never again will any country fear the US military if they are just going to run away from conflicts. I think we need to know what there orders were and who gave them. somebody is guilty of a crime, a crime of treason - those were Americans in those trucks..

 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
0
0
Originally posted by: Baloo
Originally posted by: maluckey
Speaking without breaking OPSEC, I can tell you that the unit in charge did the right thing. You NEVER stay in the kill zone. Go to Ogrish.com and see some of what happens to idiots that do.

The front element left the kill-zone, and continued on to regroup, secure, and asses the situation. The rear security element at this time was also working to prevent further deaths and to help with security. Once again, [without having a clue], I can tell you that there are resons that they didn't call the hit truck or return to the scene, at least until the area was no longer hot.

I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.

As for GPS....they cannot tell you squat about whether a road is ending when they (the roads) can change in that hell-hole n just a few months. Traffic navigation in Iraq is HARD. Even if you now a ten-digit grid, it won't tell you if the Iraqis have closed off a road, or if the insurgents have blown it.
What a load of crap. Let?s examine this. SOP for those pulling escort duty is to abandon those they are escorting, leaving the area, and wait either for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop? What then is the point of an escort if it's not to protect those they are escorting? Hmm, so if I understand this correct, if GWB?s limo is attacked and disabled, his secret service escorts are to leave the area, leaving Bush to fend for himself, and wait for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop. No, can you not see the utter absurdity of your statements?

Now that's just an examination of your first paragraph. the second paragraph is guessing - you have no idea what they were really doing. You need to watch the video, you will see the rear group moving around the disabled trucks and also leaving the area. In addition, it's hit trucks, not "hit truck" -- all 5 trucks were disabled, only one truck driver survived. Are you sure you watched the video? It is quite clear that the escort were either cowardly, or ordered to abandon the trucks. If this is so, then this could only have been a setup The drivers probably would have fared better without a US military escort to draw attention that's not going to stick around when that attention comes.

Now your third paragraph. this is very revealing. This suggests a motive for abandoning those drivers, it also suggest those escort personnel may be guilty of treason.

One last thing, an escort serves to protect, not themselves, but those they are escorting. If what this video shows is typical, never again will any country fear the US military if they are just going to run away from conflicts. I think we need to know what there orders were and who gave them. somebody is guilty of a crime, a crime of treason - those were Americans in those trucks..
No, your post shows a complete lack of understanding for military tactics. Let's take a look at the situation. You have five light escorts for 10 vehicles. That's normal. The 15 vehicles are spread over a dead minimum of 1/2 mile. The transports that are down are being hit by fire on both the left and right, and there is enough space between them that they are hit on all sides once immobilized. For the three semis that were down in this case, you need a minimum of five vehicles to cover them.

I am basing this on what looks like 1 semi in the rear, and 2 clustered further ahead. That would put 1 escort at the very front, and one on each side of each grouping.

As anyone that has been there what happens when you have one vehicle covering a 180 degree arc in an ambush. You are dead. You need a minimum of two to have any chance at all. We are now up to 10 escorts to cover the three disabled vehicles shown.

This is also a unique case where there is not a single ambush. Most ambushes are at a single point, or at multiple points in a small area. When the escort continued on, they were likely trying to get out of the immediate ambush zone so they could regroup and come back (hopefully along multiple routes). This allows them to pick targets and set the pace of the engagement. Likely what they found was that the escorts continued to be hammered the entire length of the road, however long that was. This would delay and immiate support from the escort.

The fact is, the only thing that would have changed if the escorts stopped is every one of the men in them would be dead. Is that what you want? Are you one of the armchair generals that believes everyone must die to make one death matter?
 

TRUMPHENT

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2001
1,414
0
0
This happened in late 2005, not 2004.

Halliburton's contract is a cost plus contract. Every vehicle destroyed is done so at cost plus to Halliburton.

Halliburton's drivers are disposable, their salaries are cost plus into the contract.

National Guard is US Army in a combat zone.

This only illustrates how thin the US military is streched in Iraq. The Anbar province is now abandoned to bolster the building of more defenses around Baghdad itself.

Remember Fallujah? British troops had to be borrowed to guard Baghdad to free enough US troops to finally turn Fallujah into a ghost town.

The level of insurgent attacks is at an all time high. This attack occured now over a year ago.

Some of you are missing the real message here.
 

Rangoric

Senior member
Apr 5, 2006
532
0
71
Originally posted by: Baloo
What a load of crap. Let?s examine this. SOP for those pulling escort duty is to abandon those they are escorting, leaving the area, and wait either for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop? What then is the point of an escort if it's not to protect those they are escorting? Hmm, so if I understand this correct, if GWB?s limo is attacked and disabled, his secret service escorts are to leave the area, leaving Bush to fend for himself, and wait for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop. No, can you not see the utter absurdity of your statements?

Now that's just an examination of your first paragraph. the second paragraph is guessing - you have no idea what they were really doing. You need to watch the video, you will see the rear group moving around the disabled trucks and also leaving the area. In addition, it's hit trucks, not "hit truck" -- all 5 trucks were disabled, only one truck driver survived. Are you sure you watched the video? It is quite clear that the escort were either cowardly, or ordered to abandon the trucks. If this is so, then this could only have been a setup The drivers probably would have fared better without a US military escort to draw attention that's not going to stick around when that attention comes.

Now your third paragraph. this is very revealing. This suggests a motive for abandoning those drivers, it also suggest those escort personnel may be guilty of treason.

One last thing, an escort serves to protect, not themselves, but those they are escorting. If what this video shows is typical, never again will any country fear the US military if they are just going to run away from conflicts. I think we need to know what there orders were and who gave them. somebody is guilty of a crime, a crime of treason - those were Americans in those trucks..
Sun-Tzu's The Art of War, Chapter 11 on the Nine Terrains would be a good read for you. And thats just the one that comes immediately to mind, I'm sure someone who has read it more recently can give you a better example of why staying in an ambush is suicide.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: Baloo
Originally posted by: maluckey
Speaking without breaking OPSEC, I can tell you that the unit in charge did the right thing. You NEVER stay in the kill zone. Go to Ogrish.com and see some of what happens to idiots that do.

The front element left the kill-zone, and continued on to regroup, secure, and asses the situation. The rear security element at this time was also working to prevent further deaths and to help with security. Once again, [without having a clue], I can tell you that there are resons that they didn't call the hit truck or return to the scene, at least until the area was no longer hot.

I see a bad situation, but they (the drivers) get over 90 thousand dollars tax-free to drive these trucks. They know what they are getting into.

As for GPS....they cannot tell you squat about whether a road is ending when they (the roads) can change in that hell-hole n just a few months. Traffic navigation in Iraq is HARD. Even if you now a ten-digit grid, it won't tell you if the Iraqis have closed off a road, or if the insurgents have blown it.
What a load of crap. Let?s examine this. SOP for those pulling escort duty is to abandon those they are escorting, leaving the area, and wait either for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop? What then is the point of an escort if it's not to protect those they are escorting? Hmm, so if I understand this correct, if GWB?s limo is attacked and disabled, his secret service escorts are to leave the area, leaving Bush to fend for himself, and wait for reinforcements, or for the firing to stop. No, can you not see the utter absurdity of your statements?

Now that's just an examination of your first paragraph. the second paragraph is guessing - you have no idea what they were really doing. You need to watch the video, you will see the rear group moving around the disabled trucks and also leaving the area. In addition, it's hit trucks, not "hit truck" -- all 5 trucks were disabled, only one truck driver survived. Are you sure you watched the video? It is quite clear that the escort were either cowardly, or ordered to abandon the trucks. If this is so, then this could only have been a setup The drivers probably would have fared better without a US military escort to draw attention that's not going to stick around when that attention comes.

Now your third paragraph. this is very revealing. This suggests a motive for abandoning those drivers, it also suggest those escort personnel may be guilty of treason.

One last thing, an escort serves to protect, not themselves, but those they are escorting. If what this video shows is typical, never again will any country fear the US military if they are just going to run away from conflicts. I think we need to know what there orders were and who gave them. somebody is guilty of a crime, a crime of treason - those were Americans in those trucks..
No, your post shows a complete lack of understanding for military tactics. Let's take a look at the situation. You have five light escorts for 10 vehicles. That's normal. The 15 vehicles are spread over a dead minimum of 1/2 mile. The transports that are down are being hit by fire on both the left and right, and there is enough space between them that they are hit on all sides once immobilized. For the three semis that were down in this case, you need a minimum of five vehicles to cover them.

I am basing this on what looks like 1 semi in the rear, and 2 clustered further ahead. That would put 1 escort at the very front, and one on each side of each grouping.

As anyone that has been there what happens when you have one vehicle covering a 180 degree arc in an ambush. You are dead. You need a minimum of two to have any chance at all. We are now up to 10 escorts to cover the three disabled vehicles shown.

This is also a unique case where there is not a single ambush. Most ambushes are at a single point, or at multiple points in a small area. When the escort continued on, they were likely trying to get out of the immediate ambush zone so they could regroup and come back (hopefully along multiple routes). This allows them to pick targets and set the pace of the engagement. Likely what they found was that the escorts continued to be hammered the entire length of the road, however long that was. This would delay and immiate support from the escort.

The fact is, the only thing that would have changed if the escorts stopped is every one of the men in them would be dead. Is that what you want? Are you one of the armchair generals that believes everyone must die to make one death matter?
forget it Dwarf, you're wasting your time trying to teach tactics 101 to a self-declared expert who has probably never been in the military or in combat. The concept of SOP is lost on those who think their higher-level educations and Halo scores are enough reference to play armchair general.

The soldiers in this roadside ambush did exactly what they are trained to do. period. those of you who think otherwise are mental midgets.
 

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