Video Capture with my AIW Radeon in Win2k

[rbV5]

I have a read posts here that VFW is not supported by the AIW Radeon, despite what I read, I decided to try for myself. Until now I didn't have my Radeon setup to capture video, and now only have basic capabilities...here's what I found out.

I am using Adobe Premiere as my capturing software(nothing against the Ulead product that shipped, its just what I've always used). I have my Cable Coax hooked to my Radeon Cable/Ant. Coax in. I have my VCR composite video out hooked into the ATI input adapter(purple thing) and then hooked into the s-video in on the AIW card.

I have captured at 640 x 480 with the ATI Tuner and the VCR, both from within Premiere, both with the VFW format, guess what?, They both worked with out a hitch. I tried different codecs and resolutions. I edited, and used transitions with my captures and it all worked well.

I am no expert in video capture and video editing, but VFW video capture indeed is supported with the Radeon, and also works very well.

 

[oldfart]

Interesting. Maybe you and Nic Colt can get to the bottom of this.

 

[rbV5]

I also picked up a rf modulator to hook my tv out up(my old tv only has coax in ) and was pleasantly supprised by the DVD and Divx picture quality, definately not as crisp as the monitor and not quite up to par with my bothers set top DVD player(his TV is a lot nicer than mine also)but plenty watchable, and with the home stereo hooked into the soundlaster, not a bad little multimedia system! I'm impressed.

I wish I could help Nic out, its working for me.

 

[rbV5]

Update- Just installed virtual dub 1.4,(highly regarded freeware video capture software), I can confirm that Virtual Dub most definately IS compatable and Captures VFW format AVI perfectly with AIW Radeon. I'm not sure if its the latest version(it says August, 2000 so likely it is not) it was the first version I came across on the net. Installation was simple, I just did a simple capture changing the settings to what looked right, and it worked right away!

I picked Virtual Dub because it was mentioned as not capable of video capture with AIW Radeon and because everyone has access to this software where they might not with Adobe Premiere. It most definately DOES WORK!

 

[rbV5]

Update- just installed flask, and using the ATI TV application, I did a Highest quality mpeg2 video capture of a Prerecorded Video(Disney) off of my VCR with the Composite Video In. Taking just a minute setting it up flask for the first time, I produced a pretty decent Divx Avi of about 20% of the original size. It seems as the AIW Radeon handles Mpeg Capture very nicely as well!

 

[Tobywankenobe]

I can't tell you how much better this makes me feel. I'm putting together a new system (A7V133, Tbird 1ghz, ATA100 raid0,Win2k), primarily to edit video via firewire, but was going to get the Radeon AIW to have analog input as well. After reading Nic's post as well as some on Rage3d (Nic's there too) and Mug (the Ulead user's forum), I was getting concerned as if this was a good idea or not. You seem to put at least some of my fears to rest. Any idea if I am going to be able to combine video captured with the AIW with video from the firewire? Not sure about the different codecs there. I have both Premiere and MediaStudio.

 

[Taz4158]

RBV5 maybe you could PM Nic?

 

[rbV5]

I have no experience with DV capture with a firewire card, but I'm assuming you can capture right into Premiere as well. Up until today, I have used Premiere and other video apps to edit video, but had never had a video capture card to capture video. Quite frankly, I was a little concerned myself reading Nic's posts, especially when I saw no one reporting any success doing video capture. I plan on getting a DV camera myself, but picked the Radeon for the s-video input as well as the TV tuner, so analog video capture is important to me.

Rest assured, the Radeon works well for video capture and after capturing from my VCR, which I would consider worst case scenario, the quality is plenty good to back up the video collection. With a little experience with the various compression schemes, I'm sure the quality will be as good as the VHS with the tapes, and MUCH better with cable, Sat Dish, and Digital Sources. The TV capture through the ATI tuner is excellent by the way.

Taz, good idea, he usually latches on too these threads, but I'll see if I can ring him up

Tobywankenobe, Yes, what I do is capture full frames uncompressed video and then assemble/edit in Premiere. You can use stills of various types also, you just bring everything into your project and then render to whatever format you want/or have codecs for, depending on how you want to view/deliver it.

 

[NicColt]

(kinda long but here it is) Like someone else said, it's clear like mud

I am reading this now and a special thanks for the pm, I was going to take a break from all of this

ATI has also sent me a reply 24 days later. They basically said and I quote "you just wait and see in the next year or two everyone will be supporting DirectShow, Microsoft's new video capture API" A year or two ??? What I'd also like to know is if Microsoft's new Windows Media Encoder 8, Movie Maker and NetMeeting in XP support's it's own video capture DirectShowAPI?? If it doesn't we'll be waiting more than a year or two.

But rbv5 this is interesting now and thanks for the info, this opens up either new possibilities or a whole new can of worms. I have a few questions though, First, what drivers are you using?? I have win98 I don't exactly know how this works in 2K but what do you see in your Multimedia Properties under devices and video capture, is there an ATI-WDM device driver there or in fact which WDM devices are listed there?? VFW has to use a WDM driver model that is associated to your card in order to work. Is it possible that you installed the AIW-Radeon over an AIW-128 or TVWonder? Could it be possible that the AIW-128 didn't remove the ATI-WDM driver and when you installed the Radeon drivers on top, it's able to keep the ATI-WDM driver for the VfW support, because the Radeon basically uses the same capture chip as the 128. Heck who knows. Just as a test, and since the AIW-128 has the same capture chip as the Radeon the next time I format I'd like to see what happens when I install the AIW-128 drivers and see if it works or even then install the Radeon drivers on top of that and see if it keeps the ATI-WDM driver model. I sure would like to know that first.

I've also been reading Microsoft's white paper, technical requirements, SDK and software development for directshow (jeez I need a life, thank god I do this at work), and here is what I'm starting to understand but I'm in no way an expert in directshow yet and I may be totally wrong and if I am someone correct me.

It may appear that software makers like Premiere or others may be implementing a mapper type connection from VfW to the DirectshowAPI. So even if you choose VfW as the connection, and the new software that has this implemented, VfW through it's mapper will check to see if you have directshow installed if you do it will then map to it, if not it will bypass it and attempt to do a direct connection to the WDM driver model if you don't have a WDM Driver your out of luck. If the software does not have a VfW mapper through directshow, VFW just won't work on the Radeon's, however if you have a card that only has a VfW WDM driver model you won't be able to use the directshow API. So it depends if the software has VFW only, VFW mapper with the DirectshowAPI or DirectshowAPI only. Probably once VfW is dead software will have the DirectshowAPI only.

Ok time to confuse you a little, and this is what I think is happening.

• If your card has VFW support only you won't be able to use software that has the DirectshowAPI only.

• If your card only supports the DirectshowAPI like the Radeon's do, you won't be able to use software that requires the VFW support only.

• If your card only supports the DirectshowAPI like the Radeon's do, you will be able to use software that has implemented a VFW mapper to the DirectshowAPI, like Adobe Premiere.

The DirectshowAPI has a whole bunch of "functions" that can improve video capture, so if Premiere wants to include some functions from directshow it can include it into it's software. For example if directshow has 100 special functions, and Adobe wants 10 of those included in it's software, it can program it into the software and use the DirectshowAPI directly or connect to it through the VfW mapper, so if your card has the DirectshowAPI and your software supports directshow either direct or through a VfW mapper it will be able use it and that's why it would work or not work.

God help us all.

Nic.

 

[rbV5]

First, let me start with, to be honest, until yesterday, I have edited video in the past with various software(strictly hobby stuff), I have never captured video before, always used stock footage of various types. This is my first capture card, and my first ATI card.

Second, I couldn't tell you the difference between direct show or VFW, nor do I care....... if they work! All I care about is whether I can capture video streams with my card. Frankly Nic, no offense intended I don't understand what your talking about in most of your post, it seems a bit over my head.

Yes, I have ATI WDM Devices listed in my hardware section of Sounds and Multimedia Devices as follows:

ATI WDM Specialized PCD Codec
ATI WDM Rage Theater Audio
ATI WDM Rage Theater Video
ATI WDM TV Tuner
ATI WDM TV Audio Crossbar

I have some creative and audio entries and finally

Legacy Video Capture Devices, under properties, this is listed as:

WDM Video for Windows Capture Driver(win32)

Here are the Applications I have used to capture video with my card:

ATI Tuner application: Captured mpg 1&2 AND AVI files in various resolutions with the TV Tuner as well as my VCR(with the Composite In) and yes, I can capture/edit/play files from either source of over 30 sec.(I stopped at 1gig file sizes)

Adobe premiere: Captured VFW AVI up to 720 x 480, easily compresses to most popular formats, bitstreams ect.

VirtualDub, first time I used this gem, AVI capture 720 x 576!(I couldn't get premiere to capture properly at 720x576) I like this proggie.

Amcap: this came on my DX8 sdk, AVI captures 720 x 480, This also works well.

I also used Flask to make very acceptable Divx files from the ATI mpg captures, This has real potential!

The ONLY application I could not capture with was Speed Razor 4.7 RT, I don't use it anyway, but it wouldn't recognise the Radeon as a capture card.

So you can see Nic, there is a mix of VFW and Direct Show. Maybe its those damn MS whitepapers or the Knowlege base, I can't even navigate that site without being confused Anyway, you can get your Radeon to capture video. If it works in Win2k, it should work in win98. Let me know what your problems are specifically, I will help you get up and capturing video.

Oh also, I can see my 45gb Maxtor isn't going to be big enough already LOL.

Good luck Nic!

 

[NicColt]

WoW thaks rbv5, please be patient and bare with me, I'm starting to figure out things now.

BTW what win2k radeon driver are you using?

>Sounds and Multimedia Devices as follows:
>ATI WDM Specialized PCD Codec
>ATI WDM Rage Theater Audio
>ATI WDM Rage Theater Video
>ATI WDM TV Tuner
>ATI WDM TV Audio Crossbar

All those are normal.

>Legacy Video Capture Devices, under properties, this is listed as:
>WDM Video for Windows Capture Driver(win32)

This is what I'm looking for and the "WDM Video for Windows Capture Driver(win32)" is the ONLY one listed there?? Very interesting. If you were to install a AIW-128 you'd have something like the following;

Legacy Video Capture Devices, under properties, this is listed as:
WDM Video for Windows Capture Driver
ATI-WDM Video for Windows Capture Driver (similar to this)

The ATI-WDM would be the Video for Windows capture driver.

>Frankly Nic, no offense intended I don't understand what your talking about

That's ok, that's how ATI want's it also, I'm confused at times also but this information helps into understanding quite a few things. I'm also going to try more test with premiere and virtualdub according to this info.

In simple terms, if ATI would have released an ATI-WDM (windows driver model) for direct Video for Windows support for the Radeon's like they did for the previous AIW products. We would then be able to run ANY video for windows application. But because they released DirectShow support only, the software has to have a VfW mapper included in order to work. For example Premiere has an VfW mapper but not CuSeeme or NetMeeting, those still need a direct VfW driver.

ATI has very poor information about this, they have removed alot of info relating to VfW, but one thing is clear and this was taken from the ATI site, the "ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON does not provide direct support for Video For Windows solutions." If this would have been clearly written on the BOX or if ANY website would have told the truth about this simple statement, it would have stayed nicely on the shelf. In other words, unlike other AIW products the Radeon's do not provide for direct-VfW support. Which is misleading according to their official Radeon press release. Those of us who relied on that support for NetMeeting and Windows Movie Maker, were mislead. I called ATI asking why NetMeeting wont work on the Radeon and they reply saying that Microsoft's NetMeeting does not comply with Microsoft's own DirectShowAPI requirements for video capture cards, go figure.

I believe that in the near future, yes Video for Windows will die off slowly and software will be released with either a VfW Mapper to DirectShow or have DirectShowAPI built-in. But I would have like to have known this before buying the card. Not just after the fact and being mislead into buying it. When they wrote the press release saying that the Radeon is a perfect match for Movie Maker and NetMeeting the were clearly lying and knew damm well that it would not work with those.

Nic

 

[rbV5]

The Capture driver is The Rage Theater Video, I haven't even used the legacy video capture driver, I suppose its like the legacy audio drivers for the soundblaster, I don't use them.

Actually, it seems to me that you have problem with "video conferencing" support, rather than "video capture" both the applications you mention are conferencing applications, I guess I miss understood what you were trying to do. I don't use that kind of software, so I'm no help there.

Let me know if I can help you with your video capture. I remember you saying something about not being able to play any of your captures with a duration of over 30 seconds, or capturing with VirtualDub. Is it working for you now?

 

[RobsTV]

rbV5,
Now that you've played around with capture for a while, perhaps you can offer some advice?

I would like to burn a VCD. As the CD only holds about 700meg, what settings or programs will give the best quality for viewing on a TV DVD/VCD player, yet still give plenty on time. Best I can do is about an hour using mpeg2 at 320x240. I would rather have 2 hours of 640x480. Any ideas, or is that impossible currently?

 

[rbV5]

Good qestion. One of the first projects I would like to undertake myself would be to convert my personal video collection to some kind of CD format. I don't know much about VCD's. Aren't they something close to VHS resolution and can play on home dvd and video disk players? The best quality vs size compression I've seen is Divx, which you can only play on your computer, but they can be outstanding quality, close to DVD and movies can fit on 1 disk.

So far, just playing around, I haven't been able to find the combination to make the VHS captures acceptable and reasonably sized, but when I do I'll share. Perhaps more knowlegable people can interject. There should be some excellent net resources.